History of Hillbilly and How He Can Be Saved
The above video I found to be extremely interesting and sparked this post. If you have the time, give it a watch. Ardetha has been around forever and this video, I think, is extremely well put together.
Billy was always extremely popular when I began playing. Even as a new player, he felt fun to play against. Scary, threatening but fair. There was no question of the Killer's skill, if I got downed, I knew that I screwed up. It seemed that most of the community felt the same way. There were some valid complaints about his instant-saw combo, but compared to other things in the game (Omega-Blink, Iri Head, etc), he really didn't seem close to that level of power and certainly not in need of drastic changes.
That's why many of us who were around in July of 2020 were shocked when he was completely gutted in 4.1.0. Even the Devs believed him to be in a good spot.
That didn't stop them from adding an arbitrary limitation to his power, which massively limits his potential. Likewise, they made most of his add-ons Freddy-tier levels of awful. Even add-ons that didn't need to be changed were absolutely obliterated. Seriously, a 0.2 m/s boost to movement speed only active when a flashlight is shined on you? These nerfs made Hillbilly, once a difficult but rewarding and fun Killer, feel absolutely miserable to play.
Today, he's fallen far. He's been passed up by Killer like Blight and Wesker, who do everything he does, but better. His pickrate has certainly suffered, you never see Hillbilly players anymore. Even if his nerfs were completely reverted (I'm of the opinion that insta-saw should stay in the past), he still wouldn't be overpowered.
However, I'm no Billy main. I was around but I never invested the time to play him. I wish that I would have. I certainly don't see the point in it now. If there any Billy mains among us, how would you return him to his former glory? Not as a necessarily strong Killer but as an enjoyable one.
Comments
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The fate of strong killers lol. Gutted because popular.
- Remove the roar
- Adjust the camera sensitivity at the start?
- Remove the roar
- Better steering?
- Addon rework highly advised.
The problem he had and actually shares with all killers is the fact that " stat boosting addons" are in almost all cases better than conditional or meme addons. Chargespeed, range, cooldown will always be better than some random nonsense. ( see nurse outrage lol)
I'm probably too killer biased to give detailed "balanced" ideas.
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But clearly there's a way to do them right, see Huntress. She still has stat-boosting addons but she didn't get them nerfed. She even kept her Exhaustion addon.
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I think Hillbilly would be better if he had more usefull and interesting addons to use. If his chainsaw wouldn't be so punishing when you try to use it. Maybe make curving more easier for him, etc.
Not only he got worse because of his dework but also over the time all these new maps and reworked maps suck for him. There is so many stuff to bump into, curving on loops is very hard on these maps too, etc.
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The biggest reason I never played billy much before maining blight is he feels clunky and has clunky animations. I might be alone in the but I could never get passed it. Although I never picked my killers off of power level.
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Man I wish people stopped wanting every killer to be Nurse/Blight/Spirit tier.
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You know what I'd really like from Billy?
Removing overheat, for one. Reduced collision punishment-- not a lot, but God it feels like forever for how easily it is to collide. Make his addons not AI generated.
And two maybe controversial things: make it so his chainsaw unrevs way quicker if you need to put it down, and have you left click to actually charge once the bar is full. If you want to go ASAP, you just hold left click as you charge.
I'm terrible at eyeing the bar and the person I'm trying to hit at the same time. But I don't know if this removes his skill expression or something
Also keep the roar, it's good.
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Notice how I specified ENJOYMENT over strength.
To directly quote, "Not as a necessarily strong Killer but as an enjoyable one."
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What they should do is just add back charge time into his base kit somewhat and bring back his cooldown add-ons. If blight and nurse get them why can’t he?
I don’t want him relying on add-ons to succeed though so adding charge time in the form of add-ons isn’t the way to go
Another idea would be to have a scaling bonus to charge speed as your chainsaw overheats. Rewards ballsy plays with a quicker more unexpected saw
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His animations/camera actually used to be a lot more accurate, they were changed a bit before his rework and never really brought back to where they were before. That paired with his tinnitus inducing chainsaw rev are a big part of how absolutely disorienting he can be to play now.
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Shrug. And I wish people stopped wanting every killer perk to be post-nerf Thana tier.
So, if we're done with massively uncharitable exaggerations, there is a gigantic gulf between Nurse tier and the clunky, punishing mess that Billy is right now. Which is what the OP is talking about.
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I started playing Billy this year and he is now my second main (after Nurse) and I have to say playing him is a ton of fun even without addons and despite the overheat. But I was incredibly frustrated when I started playing him because the chainsaw is not beginner friendly. I believe that BHVR made the wrong changes to him. The overheat and addon overhaul does not really affect good Billy players. They are just a big hinderance to newer players that have to learn how to play him on top of the chainsaw that is pretty hard to use in chase. Let's be honest: Does Billy really need overheat a mechanic that discourage new players to use the chainsaw in chase? Not really but they gave it to him anyway for no good reason. On top of Billy being hard to play the new maps that came out this year are literally a hardcounter to Billy's power. It really feels like BHVR wants to discourage us to play him. The bushes on GoJ have an awful hitbox it feels like you bump on air when you chainsaw sprint next to them. Shattered Square has so many random objects on the map that have a very weird hotbox and map traversing is also basically impossible on most parts. Eyrie of Crows has those notorious dead bushes with a huge hitbox. Some are even next to loops making curving around those tiles impossible.
It really feels like the devs want to make us forget about him...
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While our grudge against Billy may not make us the most unbiased one here...
Collision: There's so many little things now on maps that regular killers get stuck on makes Billy's saw more risk than reward more often than not. Needs to be less punishing for hitting bs on a base level.
Camera: BHVR could give the camera a little more slack for newer Billys (not a lot but a little)
Add ons: We think everyone can agree that Billy's add ons need another go around as alot are... pointless? Useless? We not sure of the right word.
But plz for the love of the entity, Keep the roar. It's hilarious.
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This video is seeped in the usual HillBilly Nerf Conspiracy talking points, to correct it look at feedback from before his nerf Hillbilly was unfair and overbearing too this is undeniable to anyone reasonable. Like most of these Hillbilly Videos and the hillbilly conspiracy narrative, it really strokes the ego of billy players claiming that 'hillbilly was perfectly balanced and bhvr's nerfs were uncalled for' however this is such an obvious falsehood that when you go back and look at the feedback. Hillbilly nerds are literally being marketed to for clicks and ego now. Its crazy yo see my community like this. I highly encourage Billy players to look up the feedback before the nerf and come to grips with the false narrative.
Back in the Ranked days a huge amount of Hillbilly players were in Red Ranks, the Billy layer we called it. Basically if you wanted to reach Rank 1, you had to play vs billy after billy with bbq traveling the entire map in seconds getting down after down in seconds.
Which is fair apparently, no ofc it was not.
The video sorta gives the base narrative to explain away that problem, 'that survivors who didn't find hillbilly fun were low skill' which is general elitism ofc but if hillbilly has no counter play for low skill survivors there is a problem and bHVR fixed that unlike the billy community teaching counter play to the wider community. You cant explain away a problem like this and bHVR made the right move. You think perhaps its okay to lay waste to low skill players, nah man not in this game.
The only way Hillbilly might have been saved from a nerf like this would be SBMM containment, if true that 'high skill survivors' just loved to face high kill Hillbillys then SBMM would have made that happen, but this nerf was before SBMM so it was when it was a majority problem vs. a minority problem. Its conceivable that Hillbilly could have been hidden away there like Nurse and Blight is now.
The video is right in that Billy is a bad Killer now, he always had a high skill ceiling to work effectively I used to play him myself at a lower skill level, he was never fun, you can find much better value in Bubba as a chainsaw Killer.
My suggestions would be, Drop the narratives it just makes you look like inexcusable generalizers or worse liars to anyone who researches Hillbilly feedback for 5 seconds. Ask bHVR to rework hillbilly to make him easier to play as with the same pressure as Bubba (if that is truly what you wish), that would be great for me. This would only happen if bHVR think Hillbilly's design should be a low skill entry killer, which the Cannibal was. But bHVR is generally okay with having some low skill and some high skill killers.
I DO NOT want to see Hillbilly to return to some former glory, because what he was, was terrible. But Hillbilly deserves a new glory on the high mmr scene 100% if people really thought he was haha hilarious to play against, thats an area worth exploring for bHVR over that of Nurse and Blight.
However remember there are like 20 other Killers who could use an addon rework as much or as Hillbilly.
I always expected @Pulsar to be a high mmr (high rank) Survivor, and your opinion on Hillbilly pretty much confirms that-
I knew it.
Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk.
Post edited by Emeal on3 -
Honestly got no idea how that works with the Huntress, havent been to interested/invested in her.
The thing is I acknowledge that I am killer biased. Surely there are ways to get it "right", but what i see as right is not what the "killer shouldnt be strong"-crowd sees as right. When the combination of stat boosting addons are the bvest choice in every situation, then the basekit should maybe be buffed. but then the crowd which complained about the strength of the addons will complain that basekit is now "too overbearing" or "unfun".
I mean this discussion exists because they nerfed "the best balanced killer" suddenly while claiming to like his performance in those nerfnotes.
Im probably just tired of this community demanding the solo-swf gap be closed upwards (which even I agree to*) while simultaneously rallying to nerf all killers above the "just above average"-tier.
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Ah, an Ardetha video
Gonna be completely honest, out of the few videos Ive watched of his of videos similar to these, he usually leaves out important information and exaggerates things to make them seem way worst than they actually were.
Billy has pretty much remained the exact same basekit, especially if were talking about when the change first happened. It just showed those who abused insta-saw, and the actual Billy mains.
As for what he needs, a few adjustments and an add on pass. I gave my shot a few months ago on what Id do, so here it is:
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Billy definitely needs better steering. It feels awful without using at least one steering addon
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They desperately need to address the ridiculous collision tuning on map assets. It's not just Billy that suffers from this, but he's affected a lot by it. Every new asset they introduce has a massive collision box that extends almost a meter beyond it. They've become extremely sloppy(?) in this regard. It's a consistent pain point on Billy. You collide with something you're not even close to, like a knee-high bush that isn't even on your screen.
I have less of an issue with the overheat now, but that might be because I've had to become more efficient and accurate with the saw to compensate. I can go entire games with all chainsaw downs and no overheats. But I don't go for overly ambitious curves repeatedly.
His add on diversity isn't as bad as people make it out to be. He has several bad-ons, but what killer doesn't? Engravings, LoPro chains, air filter, muffler, boots, tuned carb. That's enough diversity to cover you every game if you spend BP on him.
My main gripe is map collision. He takes a ton of skill. Arguably the most of any killer. And it sucks to hit a curve just right and have a pixel of a leaf from the next map over ruin it.
Edit: I guess I should factor in console controls, which I can't really speak to. I play on a 3200 DPI mouse for curves. Don't know how controller is for him.
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Unrelated note - but do you stream on twitch? I swear I have played against someone named 'shro0mpy', is that you?
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Here are my suggestions:
-Overheat only builds up within 12 meters of a hook
-Overheat builds up twice as fast
-Completely reworked overheat addons
-Adjusted collision with the environment
-You move 3% faster while charging the chainsaw
-Reduced base charge time by 0.20s
-Low kickback chains basekit
-Reduced cooldown for successful chainsaw downs (essentially bubba's cooldown when he uses one charge)
-Buffed or reworked other redundant addons (if you want to see the list let me know)
-Lopro chains basekit for breakable walls
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All the balances changes in the world can't fix just how clunky he feels. It's honestly maddening they've not changed him or improved him at all since his big rework
Like out of any of the Killers I rarely play, Billy is the one who feels the worst to actually try and play. Ghost saws, colliding with the most random stuff, his power punishing you in like 3 different ways when Bubba typically only gets punished in 1 way for messing up (Either cooldown or tantrum).
The consensus seems to be you either play Flick-Billy with engravings or you just play m1lly with a mobility saw that can occasionally get you an instant down. So tedious.
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This. Billy's power isn't what's lacking; a really skilled Billy player (and I run into them on rare occasion) will still feed you your lunch.
The problem is that he is inaccessible to most players. By that I mean he is mechanically very challenging to use (probably the hardest to use in the game), and on top of that has been handcuffed by mechanical and environmental limitations.
He's just miserable to play unless you already have a ton of play time with him. And even for those, it has become a chore to squeeze the value out of him.
I am not experienced enough with him to give the best suggestions for improvements, but I do know what when I did try to play with him it was unwieldy, tedious, and just plain unfun.
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I stream on twitch very rarely, but yes it is me
EDIT: forgot that I actually streamed not that long ago (about a week from now) so its a bit more likely you caught me while streamin
Post edited by Shroompy on0 -
Even if you bring back old Billy he's never going to be popular again. What killed Billy were two things: changing his animations a few patches before the nerf 2) new maps. Literally every map since Midwich has been terrible for Billy, INCLUDING the map reworks which added a lot of random junk that makes steering around loops terrible. Seriously, that random tile on the corner of the shack in Garden of Joy feels like it was put out of spite for Hillbilly players. Add to that Yamoaka bamboos, Eyrie and Garden of Joy bushes, RPD in its entirety, etc.
Also let's be real, they nerfed Billy because Blight was already on development and they wanted him to sell. When Oni came out a lot of people called him "Billy 2.0" and they probably didn't want this imagem to be associated with Blight.
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IMO this is the main reason why there is a drop in BIlly-players. They decided to rework his animations shortly before the Power-Rework and it was just horrible. First of all, it was bugged and felt really, really awkward when playing. I stopped playing Billy immediatly when they did that and even when they fixed it, it did not really end up as smooth as before. You can negate this with Shadowborn, but not everyone wants to play this.
And I think the animations and FoV removed a lot of the good Billy-players. The bad Billy-players were removed when they added Overheat and nerfed the Add Ons, because lets face it, it was not hard to kill Survivors by Backreving with Insta-Saw or with the old Cooldown-Add Ons.
@Topic:
IMO they need to fix his animations and FoV. This is the main aspect. Hillbilly does not really feel clean to play with the current animations and so on. This also included the Hitbox of his Chainwas, it is huge compared to what it used to be. This makes hitting Survivors easier, but it also makes it easy to hit every little twig when trying to curve or just using the Chainsaw for Mobility.
His Add Ons need some love as well, some are way too specific. The thing is, Hillbilly should not have Chargetime Add Ons or Cooldown Add Ons. Those should not be a thing at all, they made Billy really easy to play back then and were way too good. (brown Chargetime and Cooldown were just so good and did not cost anything)
So all the current Chargetime Add Ons should be reworked into something different, because to get the benefit you either have a big drawback or a very specific activation.
LIke, I am only using Engravings and the brown Muffler in every game, because there are not many options aside from those, Lowpro Chains and maybe the two Iri Add Ons if you want to jumpscare Survivors.
But in general, I am not sure if we will ever see an increase in Billy-players. In general, there are more options when it comes to strong Killers. You dont need to use Billy when you want a strong Killer, there is Blight, Wesker, Artist, Spirit... So many Killers which got released. So in general, the number of Billy-players would have decreased anyway.
And last but not least, I feel that many players dont really play for fun anymore, but play to win (at least since MMR is a thing). And if you play to win, you just play Nurse. Why bother learning Billy, when you can just play Nurse, lose 5 games to get used to her power and 4K so many games afterwards?
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His Add Ons need some love as well, some are way too specific. The thing is, Hillbilly should not have Chargetime Add Ons or Cooldown Add Ons. Those should not be a thing at all, they made Billy really easy to play back then and were way too good. (brown Chargetime and Cooldown were just so good and did not cost anything)
why? whats wrong with killer having decent add-ons? furthermore, what is wrong with billy being easy to play? His skill-ceiling is not that high but you still need to know what your doing to win with him with said add-on's. I think billy's pick-rate would be 2x if he just had 1 decent charge time add-on without conditions to trigger or drawback.
He is not hard to revive. He is one-step away from being a solid choice. I think its sort of bad that he is not good because he is one of the free killers that comes with the game and there should be a free strong killer that is easy to pick up and get good at.
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Yeah, nothing wrong with a Killer who has the best mobility, an easy to use Instadown with not much punishment AND Add Ons which make it even easier to use and the punishment less impactful.
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I do think that a cooldown addon could stay.
But as long as his addons are interesting I don't have a problem with him not having charge time (as I said in my original post, I think Insta-Saw should stay in the past) or cooldown addons.
Likewise, his animations and hitbox really do need to be updated to 2022 standards.
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As a Billy main and someone with 2.5k hours on this killer alone my proposed changes go as follows, keep in mind I'm being realistic and won't recommend things I genuinely don't think bhvr would do. So no "remove overheat" unfortunately.
1. Make Doom engravings (20% movement speed in saw) base kit with no downside. (Base kit charge time)
2. Make death engravings green
3. Move lopro back to iridescent (as it's his best addon imo besides engravings)
4. Move iri brick down to purple
5. Rework apex muffler to follow the same theme as punctured muffler (50% faster rate of cooling) by making it take 25% of your heat off your overheat bar upon a down with your chainsaw
6. Rework big buckle to increase your movement speed while reving your saw by .22m/s
7. Rework pig house gloves to decrease cooldown (animation) after a chainsaw hit by 20%
8. Buff leafy mash to 30 seconds and have it go away upon a hit or down and reapply after a chainsaw down
9. Give off brand motor oil the original apex muffler effect (saw is silent when undetectable)
10. Rework black grease to remove object collision but only deal one health state
11. Remove the movement speed penalty for tuned carburettor
These changes are meant to give life to Billy's addons, encourage variety, and make him a little more potent to increase potential against better survivors. These changes were made with add-on synergies in mind for this reason. Thoughts?
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Honestly I just want his addons to be decent and if they're so intent on keeping overheat then make the saw only deal a single health state while overheated. That way it doesn't punish billys going for more than 2 curves as much as it does with someone face camping as him.
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"look at feedback from before his nerf Hillbilly was unfair and overbearing this is undeniable. "
Okay, if it's that undeniable then you can provide a few examples denoting how and why he was unfair.
Because that certainly doesn't fit my recollection so it's most certainly not "undeniable". I do deny it. Given that you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
I honestly look forward to seeing what you come up with! BTW, Sluzzy posts do not count. :)
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Good catch, undeniable to anyone reasonable I guess then? Wait you honestly tell me pre-nerf Hillbilly was never unfair? NOPE.
But I'm not going to google 'hillbilly op before 2020' for you, you can do that yourself.
You also ignored the example I gave myself. :)
Post edited by Emeal on2 -
Best thing to do for him is to revert the changes that NO ONE asked for. This developer team has a horrible reputation of making unnecessary changes.
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You know this is probably a take most people won't agree with.
Blight is literally modern day billy.
-High mobility
-Highest skill expression for both sides
-A few busted add-ons
Probably like quite a lot of billy players, I will drop this game if they billy blight. Nerf his op add-ons it's fine. But his base kit is the peak killer design of this game and no other killer will ever reach it. My god if they managed to make blight as clunky as current billy, that would be truly impressive. Omg it'll probably happen before nurse gets full reworked.
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I'm certainly no Billy main but I really hate the roar.
It's annoying to me tbh
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There is no way Hillbilly will exist without the roar now, its required to make counterplay in low mmr is my theory.
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That video is pretty good but admittedly makes me a bit sad. Makes me miss Hillbilly. Haven't enjoyed DBD as much since he was nerfed and only recently have I enjoyed new killers adding give that rush that was felt versing a good Billy. I remember the big patch before the nerf they changed a few animations and I thought why would they change this and then the rest of the FOV changes happened with nerfs.
Aside from the instadown addon combo I can't think of a single person who thought Hillbilly needed a nerf that actually took time to play the game.
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Nice goalpost shift!
You stated that Billy was undeniably unfair then asked me if pre-nerf Billy was never unfair. Cute to add in the "never" to put words in my mouth.
Billy went up and down like all killers depending on the changes to perks, maps and the like even discounting direct changes to him.
So once more, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim so if you want to maintain that he was "undeniably" unfair pre-nerf then show your evidence.
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I didn't put words in your mouth I asked a question. You alright?
And once again you can google it or you can go to Steam and type Hillbilly OP or unfair in the search bar. Its pretty much all over.
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That's not what he said. If you played before the Billy nerf you would know he was easily the most loved killer. He was strong but no where near oppressive. Killer mains loved him because he was fun and rewarding to play. Survivor mains loved him because the matches were almost always a blast.
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Insta-saw was a little dumb and the complaints were valid, I feel.
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Yes but that was basically the only complaint anybody had.
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Billy will never return to his former glory. He can't. That's because fixing his problems requires massive changes not only to him but to maps as well. With every new map Billy becomes a little weaker, mainly because new maps tend to be very complex in terms of their layout and structures. Garden of Joy is a perfect example of that. Many of those loops simply aren't made for his chainsaw (ofc BHVR don't design maps with specific killers in mind) and his mobility is limited to a few lines that he can use to actually traverse the map. They'd have to do something about his collisions first and that would require them to look at all the maps.
Then of course his addons should be reworked. There is like 4 or 5 solid addons and the rest is just gimmicky to completely worthless. Like, what in the world were they thinking creating the "Big Buckle" for example? It's not even situational, it's just bad. There is clearly ways to make his addons better than they are now. However, insta saw should stay in the past.
Another point I find to be incredibly frustrating is to see how much Billy has to rely on engravings just so that survivors can't react and go a single step to the side. It's infuriating when you get a perfect curve but they have so much time to react that they can just step to the side. No need for predictions, no need for skill. I would love his hitbox to be adjusted slightly or bring back that old bug where Billy could spin around and hit survivors at the end of his sprint (of course with the possibility to bump as well).
The reason so little people play Billy is because he is incredible hard and punishing. Some QoL changes are definitely in order.
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So zero evidence plus the very next post after yours stated that Billy was in no way OP before the nerf and therefore disproving your "undeniably unfair".
Others than myself have clearly stated that he was not considered unfair by all before the nerf.
Your assertion is disproven.
I am by no means arguing that everybody said Billy was fine pre-nerf, but I never claimed that. Your claim was that everyone thought Billy was unfair pre-nerf and that's clearly not the case.
Edit: BTW, just a reminder that in debate/discussion the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You don't get to say <outrageous thing> and when asked for evidence say "Just Google it/search for it". You make the claim, you provide the links.
Post edited by Bardon on3 -
I already told you where you can find the evidence, its not my problem your refuse to look it up, nor does it disprove assertion.
You have only proven yourself unreasonable to me with that blunder. Cause that's the fallacy fallacy.
Besides I already amended the post- which you ignored ofc.
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sorry for the late response
i played against you on cold wind and you were swfing with another streamer who was live and playing as james sunderland, and you were playing as meg. do you remember? you also commented on my steam profile
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Must've been a bit ago since I don't remember that specifically
Makes sense tho that I'd be SWFing with some one playing as James as one of the people I play Survivor with plays James the majority of the time. Me playing Meg also makes sense since she's been my main Survivor since 2017
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ALL the killers need to be within one tier of each other. Nurse/Blight (spirit with best addons) are "S" tier. The next 10 best killers are "A" tier. And then there are a handful of "C" listers who are absolute trash like Doctor.
It's fine for Nurse and Blight to be "S" tier if everyone else is "A"tier. Nerf Nurse/Blight to be "A tier" (and spirit's addons) AND nerf SWF. Nerf SWF by limiting them to no Character, Item , Perk or Offering repeats. Lock loadouts except outfits during queue.
Billy was unfair in a bad way (too strong) in 2016 when he had the ability to flick and make a chainsaw attack at a different angle than his chainsaw sprint. Billy is unfair in 2022 in the opposite direction (too weak).
He has :
- nerfed steering (his steering limits were changed years ago)
- been given a roar for no reason when sawing
- lost any remotely good addon
- lost the ability to "zoom" around the map from gen to gen due to map design changes
- to play more precise than nurse/Blight for a lesser outcome. So why bother?
Funny Enough Ardetha comes to the same conclusion in his video.
Insta Saw honestly really wasnt even that bad after they changed tinkerer. Also you need to go back and look at 2016 maps to see what kinda BS we had. Anyone remember the Old iron works of misery infinite window?
This is a picture of my account so you know how much I spent playing this killer in the past.
We should really just revert Billy back to 2016 version (post flick nerf). Add the overheat mechanic so that : If Billy uses the saw so that his terror radius overlaps a hooked survivor then his saw will have an overheat mechanic. Make there be no addons that affect overheat.
And then this killer will be worth playing again.
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Mate, you're preaching to the choir - Billy was my first killer main and I was arguing that he wasn't universally hated/OP before and I still tear up looking at what they've done to him!
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DBD has moved in a direction so that premium killers = pay to win perks.
Leatherface was made better than Billy so people would buy LF. It's probably that simple.
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...for what perks?
BBQ is kinda eh.
Franklin's I like but it isn't that good.
Knockout is bad.
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