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Double Standard considering "fun gameplay"
At this point, it is hard to argue against the fact that BHVR obviously has two standards when balancing the Game on Survivor and Killer Side.
But I would like to know where this comes from?
I get it. Getting tunneled out of the Game, facecamped on hook, or being incapacitated for 25 sec. is indeed not fun gameplay. Losing in general is no fun gameplay.
But why is the attention to "no fun gameplay" so high on survivor side? I mean like, getting pallet stunned and blinded or getting blinded while vaulting is "no fun gameplay" and has no counterplay. Yet it still is accepted as part of the game.
Getting Blast mined at 3 gens in succession is 12 sec of not being able to move, do or even see things, without counterplay is no fun in any way... Yet still accepted.
Memorizing every hookstate of survivors with the same skin, getting bodyblocked or hook saboed with a purple toolbox has also no counterplay and is "no fun gameplay" to the killer. Yet, aswell, still accepted.
Is it the fact, that BHVR really tries to make every survivor feel like they are winning even when they are (obviously) not good at the game? And why is that? and why is this standard not the same on Killerside?
Comments
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Everything you mentioned that has "no counterplay", has counterplay.
It's not fun to deal with just like the things you mentioned at the beginning of your post, but they can be dealt with
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Well, I think in a sense it is fun to deal with. There is subjectivity to it, but at the end of the day, most of these are just core mechanics, you are going to see them because they are fundamentally embedded into the game.
Sometimes you need something challenging to deal with, otherwise the game becomes stale and boring, like imagine if you just crushed a group of brand new Survivors every single match... it wouldnt be fun since there is no challenge involved.
I think there is this middle area where things can be fun for both sides. I enjoy taking chases, I get stunned a lot but I never really see it as "not fun" because it is apart of the gameplay to begin with. Im fine with being blinded with flashlights since it makes me think and listen to where Im going, think about what direction I am looking, and prepare for those around me.
Without it, the game would have no substance, no interaction, no gameplay.
I can go on and on about it, but it's not "I just accept it even though it brings me pain" but more of "I like these challenges, because it makes the skills I learned feel useful" and "if I lose from this, I can take these experiences with me to improve".
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.... Can't remember last time I saw someone bring a flashlight haha
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The "no counterplay" argument only really holds up when the effect is big enough.
In the case of tunnelling, that's a survivor being denied the ability to even play the game. In the case of flashlights (which do have their counters), its effect lasts less than 5 seconds, and is rarely helpful for the survivor at all.
You got a point about the information given to the killer, but the rest comes off as you just being annoyed.
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Doesn't Lightborn counter both flashlights and blastmine?
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You still get the stun from blast mine, just not blinded (and you get the aura read too)
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That's cool. I assumed it did nothing to Killers with Lightborn
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Tell me the counterplay to blastmine and getting blinded during animation.
Im excited to hear.
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I get you on this. Its not that I dont remotely feel the same.
Its just the difference in standards. Everything you said concerning blinds or stuns, could be transported to getting tunneled, camped or hit by eruption. But why is "its not fun gameplay" taking so serious on those occasions and these mechanics need to be adressed and on killerside its "yeah well you need to accept it and get better, its a game mechanic"?
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well saboing a hook with purple toolbox essentially makes the survivor you are carrying immune to getting hooked.
Bcs even without spreaded hook offerings you wont make it to the next hook. So basically all the time you invested chasing and downing this survivor was for nothing. I would call that a big enough effect to be game altering. And it has no counterplay. If you hit a healthy survivor and he saboes, your hit recovery is longer than the sabo.
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1) Stop kicking the generator that the player is on.
2) Just like Head On, Body Blocking, or any other annoying thing a survivor might do, you tunnel them out asap. Face camp them out if you really absolutely do not want to have it occur again.
Those are the ways we handle it.
Dunno about the other guy,
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The effect Lightborn gives you doesnt make it worth a perkslot.
As a killer you only have 4 Slots. Flashlights effects are not that impactful either (besides the unnecessary buff to making the timing way to easy and therefore saves to easy).
Its just the fact that robbing you of your sight while you are stunned every 10 seconds is annoying and "no fun gameplay" and has no counterplay to it besides wasting a perk slot which is way to much.
The fact that "just take lightborn" is a valid argument, should mean that "just play swf" or even "just play bond" could be a valid argument against eruption. Yet it still isnt. Why is that?
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I recent games I encountered more than one Blast Mine.
How am I even supposed to see who is carrying the perk as there is no animation of setting the blastmine? So I should not kick gens at all?
2 -
Yes.
I would stop kicking gens unless I was running a kick based regression thing.
If I was running that I would acknowledge the start of match advantage they had due to counter perk selection and press harder to pull them off gens. Commit less to chases and try to find the players with the blast mine perks.
Understand that sometimes, for perk or map reasons, you won't win.
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The two are not remotely the same and I do not think you really understand that.
Pallet stuns and flashlight blinds ≠ Being Tunneled and camped
- Survivors have 3 hook states before they die, and if you are hooked 3 times at 5 generators remaining, I can see why people would be upset, you are basically out of the game before you can really do anything. And it's not like it's just that one match either, tunneling is on the rise and becoming more common to see. And it is also important to point out that if you play with friends, it can be further frustrating since you are forced to wait out the match, you cant just "leave and go next".
- If you are being camped on the hook you literally cannot do anything for 60 seconds per hook state, and on top of that, the Killer is not inherently doing anything either, I just see it as a waste of both players time unless it is end-game since there is nothing left to defend, it's why some perks deactivate during the end-game, and most people can agree with that.
- Killers do not have a limit to the amount of pallet stuns or blinds. Killers dont have to worry about being removed from the game if they get pallet stunned or blinded multiple times. When you get stunned, you cant do anything for 2 seconds? But guess what, you are still in the game and after the stun you can still do stuff.
- If you get blinded, you can still move and track Survivors, blinding is often just a disadvantage since you lose out on distance by blinding the Killer. If someone is trying to make a flashlight save, I can normally bait them out to get a hit, or just force them to waste their time. By sitting there and waiting to get the blind, they are not doing generators, which means the objective is not progress or progress it a much slower pace than normal, which I am fine with.
So yea, there is a difference in standards, because the two are completely different, you are comparing apples to bananas, comparing cars to roomba floor cleaners, it just realistically does not make sense since the topics have a lot of nuance that you are ignoring.
Blast Mine is tied to the the first interaction with the generator. So you halfway through the generator kicking animation, you can stop the animation and kick it again to completely avoid Blast Mine.
Albeit this only works if you get the timing down for the kicking animation (it takes some practice).
This has been in the game for a long time, and considering how it hasnt been "fixed" despite there being bug reports for it, I just assume it is intentional at this point.
But now you got a new trick in your pocket to try out. :D
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Thanks, we'll mess around with it later.
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First, you always get blinded when getting hit by Blast Mine. That's just apart of the perk
Second, you can still kick the gen afterwards??? Its quite literally just a 3 second stun
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I understand you are annoyed about eruption's nerf but comparing it with another perk like blast mine is like comparing a sling shot with a nuke.
Of course it is annoying to be stunned by a blast mine but still, it is a 3sec stun against a 40sec of gen regression gained because of eruption.
Eruption is not getting nerfed because it is unfun to play against(which it is), it is nerfed because it is the strongest, most broken perk in the killer side since 6.1.0.
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What is the counter play to blast mine? Do nothing? Is doing nothing really playing the game?
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"But why is the attention to "no fun gameplay" so high on survivor side?"
Because it's the side with 40% win rate.
If you're gonna make people lose more than half of their matches, might as well let them have fun even in defeat.
Killers get powers that can bend reality and survivors get broken keys that they lose on death.
Things like Blast Mine are more funny meme perks to complete missions than actual perks to help you win. And while killers get to fly around the map teleporting from locker to locker or ricocheting throwing knives off walls, survivors get a pebble.
So yeah, when the side that's more likely to lose queues only to spend 2 minutes hooked, slugged, camped or incapacitated, you have to think of something to make them not quit.
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i stoppped reading after "blind and getting stunned has not countrplay" i realized i didnt need to read more.
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Of course they are not the same and I never said that. This is an asymetrical Game and therefore each side has to be observed differently.
I think you dont get the point Im trying to make!
It is the sole look at Mechanics in the Game, that make progressing towards their objective for the other side harder and harder. Be it kicking Gens to prevent escapes or Stunning the Killer to get Time for the others to finish Generators. It all goes down to the same thing: Making your opponent "not Win" the Game. (Which doesnt mean you are winning the game)
The treatment although is not the same on every side. Which is what Im trying to say. Callouts for "unfun" gameplay (which is highly subjective) is always treated much more valuable on Surv Side than on Killer side. F.E. Dead Hard and Eruption discussion and "wait it out".
"Wait it out" is a complete legit argument on DeadHard but not on Eruption. Why?
Rushing Gens and Rushing Kills aka "tunneling". Rushing Gens is completely fine, rushing kills is not. Why?
You see where I am going. Both sides want to win so everyone should be prepared to face the hardest measures the other side has to offer. Yet Killers get blamed for playing effective and Survivors dont.
- "Survivors have 3 hook states before they die..." If you are hooked 3 Times before one Gen pops you completely ######### up the chase and lost to a killer, that is clearly better than you. With 2 Times Basekit BT which gives you at least 20 sec. of free roam across a map that should have all pallets up you still lost. Isnt the killer allowed to be rewarded for being a better player? If you juke the killer for 3 Minutes its completely fine to escape bcs "you played better" but if the Killer finds a surv that is a worse player he is not allowed to capitalize on the teams weakness? why is that?
- "If you are being camped on the hook you literally cannot do anything for 60 seconds per hook state..." This is the Point where "the other side losing doesnt mean you win" comes in place. No one said that being camped is fun, yet the killer loses 100% if he facecamps you and you are not playing with monkeys. So why is Camping a problem if it is more of a disadvantage for the killer?
- "Killers do not have a limit to the amount of pallet stuns or blinds..." You can still do stuff while being incapacitated? Run Around, getting chased, Getting Info on where totems/chests/gens/basement are, etc. Ofc. if survs prefer to stand infront of the Gen and wait thats essentially not playing the game. But this is not the fault of the perk! Again, Im not saying Eruption was healthy and didnt need a nerf. But the argumentation towards the nerf is just BS if it isnt used on both sides of the spectrum.
- "If you get blinded, you can still move and track Survivors...." like I said above, almost everything you mentioned could be replicated to incapacitation. You are still able to move, get information, chase, etc. you are not locked into place (like through blast mine, Head on or pallets). Still, the argument counts for killers but not for survivors. So double standard which proves my point!
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its 4 seconds and i have to kick the gen again which makes it almost 6 seconds.
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thats the point im trying to make.
"Just dont kick gens" is a completely valid argument.
"wait for eruption to pop" or "take turns in repairing gens" against eruption is not valid.
Thats the double standard.
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First of all, this is the "Egg or Chicken" argument.
Do survivors disconnect bcs they lose so often or do they lose bcs they disconnect so often?
Also, its not 40% win Rate. Its 60% Kill Rate on Killers which is a completely different thing.
60% Kill Rate could mean out of 10 Games you win 6 with 4ks and lose 4 with 0k.
It could also mean you get 2 4ks and 8 2ks which is basically a loss for the killer.
And, if you toss around those "40% winrate" as an argument to get survs a more "enjoyable experience" bcs they are losing so often. Why exactly nurse got nerfed if she is sitting on a ~50% killrate? Either your numbers count and survs are too weak and nurse needs a buff or the numbers cannot be taken 100% serious and nurse is something special.
You cant use the numbers if it suits you and ignore them if they dont!
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The boy is trying to tell me something, I cant figure it out. I only remember he said something that related to flash light.
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The point you are missing is
1_ Blast mine is active for what, 15-20seconds? And if the gen is not kicked in that time you need to charge it again while Eruption is PERMANENTLY ACTIVE even if the gen regresses to 0 with the initial kick.
2_ As i said before, blast mine is a 3sec stun and Eruption is a potential 40sec of gen regression so you need to be hit by 13 Blast Mines to get the same effect as 1 Eruption's.
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I get it. Getting tunneled out of the Game, facecamped on hook, or being incapacitated for 25 sec. is indeed not fun gameplay. Losing in general is no fun gameplay.
But why is the attention to "no fun gameplay" so high on survivor side?
You do realise that the first two things you mentioned have been major problems in the game from the moment of inception, and the only thing that has been done to fix them is a short period of Endurance upon unhook? In six years?
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6 whole seconds. My heart breaks for you.
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I only agree with hookstates, killer should see them too
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If u have headphones it really isnt hard to track a survivor while blinded
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Fun fact (Survivor main) everything you said literally has some form of counterplay if you must know. But in my opinion I only have 2 problems with this game: The consitent "you got hooked first you must die" (or more commonly 'tunneling') which is frustrating for 3 reasons: you are effectively being harrased (or that's how it feels like if undeserved), won't yield you anything after a certain point, is just monotone (spelling?). My other main problem is how some things are unpunishable for most scenarios. Like the Killer basically has no negative effect besides the 2 forms of blindness that can be afflicted by the survivors. Or how strong a couple loops can be (mindblowingly if chained correctly). Now, back to the original topic. If you don't wanna use direct counterplay to certain elements of the game, then don't. It makes the game actually more fun knowing you "fought for your food". But outside of a couple (these recent couple of days it's more prominent tho...) scenarios where survivors abuse the living hell out of you, or killers tunnel their brains out (in solo queue not even getting punished because randoms or overloaded perks/kits) you could just ignore those elements.
*Side note: Also you are always rolling a dice in a lot of territories in this game too. (like rank (which seriously doesn't freaking matter anyhow), perks, items, the opponent's skill level, rng of the games, etc.) So I can 99% guarantee you if not under special conditions 2 games basically won't be the same.
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You can literally see the mine on the gen. Just look at the gen ???
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i'm fine being blinded while vaulting because i have a headset so i can track whoever it was blinded me and they lose distance they could have gotten by running away while i was vaulting. even if that weren't the case, though, being blinded lasts a couple seconds and then stops. camping and tunneling can ensure you can't play for the entire rest of the game (although with base BT it's worse at this, and i personally am also fine with getting tunneled most of the time because it ensures i get some fun chases in)
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The mine is only visible to survivors. It's not shown to the killer.
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is eating a 3 second stun once or twice a game really that bad for you?
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i can guarantee you that those 6 seconds barely meant anything pretty much every time youve been hit by it.
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Just want to point out that tunneling does not deny survivors anything. The entirety of the match prior to the hook is all within the survivors control, any lack of gameplay is a result of their efforts or lack thereof. It's on the survivor to avoid detection and escape chases when they occur. A tunneled survivor is one that has failed on multiple levels of play and is now reliant on teammates to provide additional chances.
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Regardless of such, it appears that we have reach a wall here, you see.
I, among many others, just cant agree with the points you are making because the comparisons and arguments made can be refuted with evidence and logic (such as acknowledging nuance), and you (and us as well) are too stubborn to change your (and our) stance and/or listen.
None of this is going anywhere and we are both wasting our time. For both our sake, I will stop discussing this further, I would recommend to do the same.
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Yeah bcs you still dont understand what I am trying to say.
You hook yourself on eruption, tunneling, camping or blastmine. But they are just examples and could be widened to any other topic.
F.e. having to equip shadowborn to aquire a full FoV in 2023 which could be done by a simple option is ######### hideous. Yet survivors get hud updates and quality of life visual updates to improve their felling during gameplay...
Its not about every individual problem mentioned. Its about the standards set to what each side has to "endure" during gameplay, where the bar of how many frustrating game elements you have to accept is way higher on killer side.
Which ultimately leads to all the miserable soloQ games you guys are experiencing.
But thats a different topic...
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On the survivor side you have solo queue, which can be the most miserable damn experience in any game ever. The HUD is lovely but it hasn't necessarily improved matches. The HUD lets me know that while I've been chased for the last few minutes not a single one of my three teammates has touched a gen and so I've wasted my time in this match and this chase and landed myself a guaranteed de-pip because somehow stealthing around the outskirts of the map is still a thing.
There is nothing killers endure that is as bad as solo queue. I infinitely prefer playing killer to playing in solo queue. For the most part, pallet stuns and blinds are avoidable: you can't avoid a pallet stun if you're casually strolling around and have no idea the pallet or survivor is there, but even then it's not like you actually got bonked on the head in real life, you just had a mini heart attack and you'll be fine in a few minutes.
Looking beyond solo queue, a lot of survivor gameplay isn't really fun. Doing generators isn't fun. Very few people start up any game in the hopes of holding down a button for 90 seconds, then walking a little bit to hold down a button for 90 seconds again, etc. But if you don't sit your butt on a gen then you'll suffer in emblem points and BP, and if you get interrupted on the gen it's frustrating because that means more time sitting holding down a button and goddamn, never mind, I'm not doing this gen again, put me on the hook and I'm out, thanks.
Healing is also holding down a button. Mending, too. Bones feel a little more interesting because you have to hunt for them, but it's still just holding down a button while you crouch in one spot for a bit. Then when you're on the hook you're just stuck in one spot unable to participate, woo, what fun.
Killers do need a hook counter that shows the hook states of each survivor. That should've been added to the HUD instead of the ridiculous circle that fills up. The lack of info annoys me, but it's the survivors who accidentally die in my matches who actually feel the brunt of BHVR's poor choice.
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The treatment although is not the same on every side.
That's because it's an asymmetrical game. The way the game is built means that killers are far more likely to go out of control than survivors are.
It's similar to why League of Legends has had about 16 different tank metas: The way defensive stats and offensive stats work simply means that the former is far more likely to create problems than the latter. It doesn't matter how much damage you can do, if you die in a single stun. It doesn't matter how little damage you can do, if the enemy team literally cannot stop you.
Killers have a similar problem: They are the power role. (Inb4 'muh tournament play') They have much more control in general over a match, so anything they do is much more likely to be oppressive than anything survivors do.
What are the most frustrating things to face from survivors? I'm not talking about anything that's annoying, I'm talking about the things that literally make you want to quit on the spot. You're probably gonna say Dead Hard first, but Dead Hard is not the main ingredient of a bully squad, is it?
It's BNPs to rush gens, chain flashlight blinds, sabo-spam (Possibly with Boil Over + Breakout). It's having two other survivors orbiting your chase, ready to ruin your day by denying you the hook. But all of this stuff, with the exception of the BNP, is pretty hard to pull off, since it requires coordination.
Killers don't have to worry about coordination. It's much easier for killers to execute a lot of strategies, making them far more common, too.
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But then there's another issue that's going to sound even worse: Loud killers often have a really bad grasp on the game. One of the skills required to be a great killer is having a good macro-level understanding of the game. But there's a lot of killers that struggle with that as they just blind-focus on whatever is directly in front of them. That produces an issue with the kinds of complaints that roll out of the killer community: It can be very short-sighted, pointing the finger at the wrong things, focusing on things that are happening in front of them as opposed to things that are happening outside their view that are more impactful.
Any perk that gets any kind of usage in a match becomes the object of its ire, while there's other, more powerful things at work in the background that draw no attention at all. BNPs are a sterling example of this.
Seriously, I feel like I am the only person on these forums to have ever called for the removal of BNPs, the most blatantly broken piece of garbage in the entire game. But strangely, when people talk about gen speeds, this little trinket is -never- brought up. Disabling this thing should be a slam-dunk, but for some reason, all the attention is on Prove Thyself or Hyperfocus.
Similar to CoH. I could be running around with my ambulance build, healing folks up in 5 seconds flat, but Mikaela's healy perk made a big boom, so that one's the problem.
The most blatantly unfun things that killers can deal with are bully squads and BNPs, and neither are getting nearly as many complaints as they deserve.
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2) You tunnel them out.
Therein lies the problem. The counter to survivors doing stuff like this or brining dead hard, or god tier toolboxes or medkits, is to tunnel them out as fast as possible, which is not fun for them. The counter for killers camping and tunneling, is to just slam the gens as fast as you can with the other 3 and then escape, which is not fun for the survivor on the hook, nor the 3 survivors on the gens, and i'd argue the killer.
The most effective way to play this game, is the least fun for everyone involved. Let's ignore "sides" for a minute. I don't care which side you are on, but don't you think, for EVERYONE's sake, that that should not be the case? That it should be changed and fixed? So that the most effective way to play the game, for everyone, is to play the way that is most fun?
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Facts.
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Prove Thyself is a prime example of this phenomenon. Nearly every gen speed discussion complains about PT over BNP.
I'm 100% in favor of making BNP lock in a gen, so that a gen over 50% or so can't regress below that value. But it provides no boost in gen progress anymore.
Cap gen speed across the board so there's less variation between 'gen rush' and a squad running 3 maps and a key. And this also applies to slowdowns, too... so stacking perks doesn't result in a 3 minute gen speed.
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OFC The game should have developers that direct its growth to ensure a fun experience. This was the way to monetize your product.
Now its different, developers feel totally comfortable using negative reinforcements to keep people playing. I think in the case of Dead by Daylight, the developers are too detached, too distracted, too.. something to understand basic things like.
games should be fun.
losing can be fun.
We could debate, refine and go through every step prior to implementation and have these concerns resolved, but it'd be a waste of time. Behavior just does not see the issues this game has as actual issues. And they hold the keys to uploading a new test build.
Don't get me wrong, the game is still fun, its just a sort of sordid, abusive, negative type of fun at times. And its on the developers to clean it up. We can only do so much with our fractured nature as an internet community lead by self obsessed and selfishly motivated media figures from twitch/youtube...
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