To everyone saying DH is so easy to counter...
...Here's two tournament-winning Oni performances where the Oni swung into it. Four times total. Twice with his power, and twice with M1. Yes, in a setting where only one player is allowed to have it. Yes, even after seeing which Survivor has it.
This guy got first place in the DbD community cup. Twice.
So, are you really going to lecture me about how this was clearly a skill issue?
Comments
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why has everyone a ping above 150?!
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This video only proves that dead hard is fine
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Oh man, I get what you're saying. A killer, playing against the BEST players (top MMR) can eat multiple Dead Hards in a game and still get a 4k, even with multiple gens left sometimes.
Huh, when you put it like that, I guess Dead Hard isn't too big of an issue. Thanks for letting us know!
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I mean, he 4k’d at 2 gens left against a supposed comp team…
I do not struggle against DH whatsoever, and there are many other killer mains who don’t either.
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So you can get hit multiple DHs and still get a 4K, thats your point?
Do killers not even have to bait, should they just hit the survivor?
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In fact, he countered it perfectly.
Take note and learn
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So the guy got a 4k despite not waiting out DH? I'm confused, it clearly didn't cost him the game so... I guess it's not that bad?
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I agree. The Oni won while eating DH.
Conclusion: DH needs a buff.
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A video where the Killer doesn't even try to avoid DH and then drops the Survivor in about 5 seconds after eating the DH three out of the four times (and the fourth was less than fifteen seconds later) might not be giving the argument you're hoping for.
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The thought of the post: DH is not easy to bait out, here is one of the best players who got caught many times
Everyone in this topic: but he won.
Why are 90% of people on this forum not even able to follow the point, but think they are able to have some constructive discussions?
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I think the issue is they're taking the OP as using the videos as evidence of the problematic nature of Dead Hard, but the fact the Killer won the game despite taking multiple Dead Hards is overshadowing whatever issues the OP is trying to bring attention to.
"Okay, Dead Hard isn't easy to bait out. If you can win regardless why worry about doing so?"
OP should have used an example where eating those Dead Hards cost the killer the game.
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Ok, but are the survivors tournament winners too?
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Or it could be you're missing the point instead. I watched the second video and he didn't even try to bait out DH; he just ate it and still downed the survivors a few seconds later. DH had barely any effect. If anything, DH looks weak in these videos (which it's not; it's just the Oni was really good at picking when and where to chase but if you're trying to make a point about avoiding DH you kind of need a video where they actually try to avoid DH first).
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I don't think he tried to bait it out if he hits it that many times because clearly he didn't need to he was still able to win even lunging mindlessly to it. I maybe hit dh twice a match if survivors have 3-4 dh:s.
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It's more like a decision made... to just swing for it leave it up to the Survivor to hit the button that causes DW to be applied then have them deal with it
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I get what ppl are saying. Yeah that one person with DH didn't cause the killer to lose the game but think about this...in a normal game you can have 4 survivors all having DH against an inexperienced/decent killer and the outcome could be completely different. I would love to see some of y'alls the gameplay against a group of decent survivors who are all using DH and see what your outcome. If anything I think this video shows imo we need limits on what survivors can bring into a lobby. I know Im tired of going against 4 medkits+a CoH, 4DHs, and a map offerings. Like you to know I played around 10 games last night and little over 1/2 of them was like that. 4DHs, 4Medkits with a CoH, and few map offerings to either the newest map or Graden of Joy...It was pain v.v I won some of them but damn is was stressful and wasnt fun...
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This doesn't prove what you think it does.
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Agree, maybe he used not the best example, but:
1) This is an incorrect logical chain that they are trying to build here, that dh is a bad perk or that it is a good perk for game's health bc he won anyway. It doesn't work that way.
I've seen several tournament matches where a Nurse lost to survivors. This does not mean that the Nurse is a balanced killer.
2) I am Oni main and I can say with confidence that there are very few killers like him in the game who can turn the game around at any moment. He has the biggest comeback potential in the game.
Again, if the survivors allowed this to happen, this does not mean that the perk is "easy to counter", nor that it is a good perk for the game.
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So if I post a compilation of me countering DH, does that automatically make my opinion valid
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I hate DH as much as the next person but maybe showing a video of a killer who ate 4 and is still able to clean up all survivors isn't the best showcase against it
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Here's a game I had previously recorded to ask some other Artist players on the forum as to how they would have played. I did 3K and give Hatch on Fractured Cowshed with 3 gens done and there was only one DH user so it's not exactly what you're looking for but it's the fastest example to give.
The DHs by the Steve were:
5:00 I find out Steve has DH
6:38 Steve spins and runs at me to use DH. I wait it out.
11:25 Successful DH by Steve but entirely my fault. I thought Steve was too focused on the birds and should have anticipated the DH.
18:10 I bait out the DH and drop Steve.
So, one DH to find out Steve has DH, one other successful DH that I could have countered but I made a mistake, and two unsuccessful Dead Hards for a 50% success rate on DH. Generally, survivors I go against are unsuccessful with their DHs the majority of the time.
I would say that's true for the majority of the other Killer players who have been around for awhile.
I personally don't know if DH is OP or not as I would see if it gave a statistically significant increase in survival rates over SB before saying my opinion one way or the other and that data isn't available. However, I don't have an issue with DH personally and that's why hyperbole such as DH can't be countered and it's a third health state gets so much pushback. Those statements are objectively false.
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Killer destroys actual comp team so hard it wasn't even close. BUT he was minimally inconvenienced a couple times.
Better nerf the losing team, just to make sure.
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Yes, I am still going to say that it isn't a problem. He ate 4 DHs in top level play and won. How is that indicative of a problem? Why should killers be able to consistently play around an exhaustion perk to the point that it has no value? This debate is ridiculous.
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I mean, I showed a video on here where I ate like 8 DHs in Oni's power against 4 DH users and got 4 outed and everyone just said SkiLl IsSuE so I'm not surprised by the responses here
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I dunno why you guys keep bringing up tournaments as critique. The game isn't balanced enough to host a tournament without cutting parts of the game out.
That alone spells out all you need to know. So there isn't really a point in bringing it up considering just how many things get yeeted and deleted during tournaments to put them into even a modicum of balanced play. If the game was fully ready for a tournament you'd be able to run 4 DH and it wouldn't be a problem. There wouldn't be any perk bans or needs to adjust anything.
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Because yours was lol. You fell for the same DH trick OVER AND OVER. Nobody to blame but yourself there. I remember your clip.
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people on this forum will really just post anything
so the team he was playing against, which was a high-caliber coordinated team with voice chat, managed to use their perk correctly not 1, not 2, but 4 times, and he still managed to beat them. so you're saying the perk that did not change the outcome of the match in favor of the team that used it should be nerfed, because they got to use it multiple times. really? that's your argument?
i think there are absolutely tweaks that could make DH slightly more fair, but "this team that lost was able to use it multiple times" is just so, so ridiculously poorly thought out.
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Yes, being unable to bait Dead Hard effectively at pallets while in Oni's power for a console player is lol
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Not really my point...my point is ppl are tired of seeing the same stuff over and over. I would love a lobby with just one DH most of the night but thats not what I get. I get lobbies with 3 DH at least and its mentally draining having to "bait" or wait it out in every chase I have. Agian one DH isnt OP or even a problem. Its when more than 1/2 the survivors have it...
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Since people are just finding any reason they possibly can to defend DH we can actually look at this terrible argument that because the killer won DH is fine.
In this tournament Survivor are massively nerfed from the top 4 perks to the top 16. They are not allowed to bring the same item and both sides are restricted on item rarity. Saying something is fine because killer won when there are massive nerfs for the survivors is a god awful counter to saying the perk is fine.
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I don't find it personally to be an issue when 3 or 4 survivors have it. You do and that's something you should express. If it is very stressful for a lot of people to deal with then that's a separate issue from DH being uncounterable or not easy to bait out which is what the original OP was saying. I don't know if that will have much sway with BHVR as the flipside is it's a lot of fun for survivors and they have to be considered as well but definitely put that argument out there. My response was in the context of the thread which is 'DH is uncounterable and a third state!' which is just hyperbole. I don't get an opinion on how other people than myself feel about things so, if it's too stressful, put it out there. It's just if it's posted in a thread that's based on DH hyperbole it'll get confused with that issue so it might be better to have a separate thread for it.
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Dh needs a full rework, it's honestly just an unfun perk
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Then please explain your argument on why dh isn't ok.
For our 2 cents, dh is annoying but in a good spot for now, baring the amount of times it's seen and the occasional script users. Either eat through or bait, it requires both sides doing something for it to work (or fail)
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I've already did this in multiple treads. Its redundant to go in every DH thread and post the same thing on why I find the perk to be a problem in my experience. I've even pushed back on players that say DH is fine because it was nerfed and they just don't counter my comments because you really can't.
In general the perk is problematic vs certain killer powers that are telegraphed. Vs these killers the perk becomes low risk/high reward.
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“DH is easy to counter” “DH takes skill to use”
Could literally use the same arguments for Eruption which was regarded as easy to use, and impossible to counter, so why do people insist DH is any different? BHVR needs to stop with perks whose existence change how you play the game regardless of if it’s even in the loadout. DH may not even be as bad as before, but its design is #########. 3rd health state/chase extender you can only counter by waiting before swinging is not healthy or fun period.
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When we visit those threads most logical arguments are buried under alota whining.
The argument that it works well against certain killers kinda falls as certain perks counter killers anyway. Spine chill for stealth ones, calm spirit for doc (and lesser extent anything causing screaming like infectious fright oni).
In addition powers that are telegraphed are usually easy to dodge unless funneled. We're perfectly capable of dodging 5-7 non point blank hatchets.
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This
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DH was the best perk in the game, and for killers where you used it to dodge the hit instead of using it for distance we see new DH being buffed. This is to an extent saying old COH was fine. All you had to do was play a strong chase killer and you didn't really care about what COH did. That doesn't make old COH fine.
Players use DH when turning corners vs Demo. You basically just have to eat the perk. Good survivors understand where there is zero counterplay and try to put themselves in this position as much as possible. Even when I counter DH as Demo it can just result in what old DH did. Perk is gross when me outplaying it results in the survivor getting the old version of it.
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The first paragraph may need dumbed down for us as we're not sure the point is other than "just because we're technically correct doesn't mean dh is fine".
To us that sounds more like smart use of tools being able to put you in that position time and time again. Regardless you could use old dh to block a hit (which has been done at pallets even) but has changed so now instead of having a veriety of used for every situation it now has a more focused use.
We're not sure how your both countering dh while giving it the same use as old dh so we're going to need an explanation on that.
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All this video proves is that a sufficiently skilled killer can defeat dead hard against COMP SURVIVORS. Now apply that to ordinary survivors who are much less skilled. gg ez.
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All it takes to be a comp survivor is to stick on gens like glue, hold w + pre drop every pallet, and memorize a clock system. I'm sure random bully SWFs with multi thousand hours can effectively use DH better than comp teams
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It’s completely out of control and the only ones who don’t agree with this are survivor mains who never play killer and will also never play a match without DH because they would lose way more matches without it. At high levels, killers regularly have to deal with 5-10 extra health states on top of the advantage that survivors already get from communication in SWF teams.
how is this fair?
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The first paragraph may need dumbed down for us as we're not sure the point is other than "just because we're technically correct doesn't mean dh is fine".
You are comparing DH to calm spirit. I'm saying that an exhaustion perk which all survivors run 1 of is not only the most used but overtuned vs certain killers. This is the same thing for old COH. For some killers it was way more broken of a perk compared to others. This is exactly how I see current DH.
To us that sounds more like smart use of tools being able to put you in that position time and time again.
Irrelevant on whether it is smart or not. The point is that good survivors will try to put themselves in these positions and the perk has no counterplay while giving absurd value when in this position.
We're not sure how your both countering dh while giving it the same use as old dh so we're going to need an explanation on that.
I bait DH by holding m2 and pair the HISS from Demo with flicking my camera up. If a Survivor is at a corner/pallet they DH which I don't attack into which is me countering them and yet their DH covers my attack window resulting in old DH. I outplay you and yet you get rewarded. That is the complete opposite of a high risk/high reward perk. If you failing it results in still being rewarded there was no risk involved.
The pallet play vs Demo with a failed DH is just eat the pallet. If you are able to bait the DH there typically is too small of a timing window which makes the correct play just getting the pallet instead of risking it. This is basically the same thing that old DH did.
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What do you mean 'nerfed from top 4 perks to top 16'? That sounds like they got to use a wider array of perks.
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But this is what I fail to understand. You view the DH proc as you outplaying the survivor, with no regard for the survivor timing up the DH proc. And there's nowhere near the same energy dedicated by killer players to a Sprint Burst at 15-20 meters, a Lithe before chase even starts, or a Balanced Landing that puts the survivor halfway across the map. I'm not trying to use whataboutism. Those are just as impactful as DH, if not more, and they carry a fraction of the risk and counterplay potential. But killers absolutely lose their minds if they lose a 50/50 to DH. I don't understand where this perception comes from that DH is somehow more impactful, problematic, and less counterable than other exhaustions when they're used optimally.
Are we saying players shouldn't get value out of exhaustion perks at this point?
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I've been casually observing this thread and it's actually pretty funny how much this backfired
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Thank you for clarification
Yes we were as the argument was "In general the perk is problematic vs certain killer powers that are telegraphed. Vs these killers the perk becomes low risk/high reward" . Is dh a problem because its so used, is it a problem because of certain killers? Then we come back to this "For some killers it was way more broken of a perk compared to others. This is exactly how I see current DH." . To go back to the calm spirit deal, as doc it negates almost all his tracking ability (he still gets a score event and add ons can still track), it negates any sort of screaming build, and currently can invalidate a whole rift challenge (darkness revealed one where they need to scream due to the perk).
Id argue against it being irrelevant. When a huntress holds her hatchet to simply zone someone out thats effectively putting survivors in a similar deal. Survivors can't do anything but get hit or use dh then either fail dh or get hit a few seconds later due to being herded into wherever she wants.
This is our opinion but that doesn't sound like an outplay or counter. That is to us overly respecting both the pallet and perk, but again thats our opinion as we tend to just aggressively attack.
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So.
He won.
And was also against, presumably, some of the best survivors in the game.
I fail to see why perks should be balanced around the top 0.01% of players.
Sure the best survivors in the game can nail DH on the regular. And still get 4kd.
But 99% of survs can't hit DH that consistently.
I mean come on. This is tournament level play. If only one play uses DH you know that they will give it to the player who is insanely good with it.
When people complain about DH they make it sound like it ruins every game.
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Forced to use the top 16 perks instead of all 4 survivors getting the best 4 is nerfing the survivors. This means being forced to use the top 16 perks instead of the top 4 is a large nerf to the survivors
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DH isn't balanced around it procing all the time. The perk is a high risk/reward which is not the case if you're getting baited into using your perk but not able to be punished for the mistake.
I think the pre-leave and pop exhaustion is not healthy for the game. Now if we taking in the vacuum of Demo I am able to burn your exhaustion and place portals in ways where I can tp back and zone you from areas where I don't want you to go. There is actual skill that I can do there to counter your perks. Now this isn't the case for other killers which is why it will be a problem if DH was deleted because it shifts the problem into a different area. The main problem I see with exhaustion in general is where the killer has no way to counter the perk/reduce its effectiveness in a fair manner.
I think you equipping a perk doesn't mean you should be carried when you fail to use it in a skilled way. I would even say that it would be called a crutch.
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