How much time do you actually think SB buys a survivor?
So a popular take is that a survivor using DH gets to loop the killer for an 1 extra minute, even if i think that number is a bit exaggerating, that most times the chase will not be prolonged by that long, lets go with it.
Ok, so how much do you think a survivor gets from using SB? I have seen takes like its only 7 to 10 seconds to catch up.
People, do you remember blood rush? You know, the perk that people went insane saying that it's unreasonable to think a killer can catch up to survivor that just SB away in 20 seconds, that 40 or 60 seconds is a more reasonable amount of time to catch up. So, SB gives survivor 10 seconds or also a minute, which one?
SB and DH are in similar strength, the reason why DH is infuriating for killer is just how the perk is designed.
In the end SB can give a survivor a similar amount of value with way more consistency.
And honestly, for M1 killers especially, you would be shocked how hard games would become if SB became more popular than DH.
Either that, or blood rush was ok, and you you were all acting like the world was burning. Honestly either could be true
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I mean people like to act as if their favorite toy was just crushed the moment they see a perk that seems remotely viable get added to the opposite side.
That being said, SB is absolutely next. No idea why or even how its being slept on this hard
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The difference with this calculations is that with sb you just counting the distance and with dh you counting the ability to reach a pallet.
If a survivor is in a deadzone and can only reach a pallet with sb, its much more valuable than in the open field.
So you cant count the time like that. It would make more sense to compare the distance of sprintboost with the distance you get if the killer hits your dh. But that wouldnt really compare the strength of both perks.
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Sprint Burst gives you 3 seconds of moving at 6m/s. A killer that isn't the Nurse moves at either 4.4m/s or 4.6m/s, meaning that a survivor will gain 1.6m or 1.4m of distance every second, meaning they gain 4.8m or 4.2m of distance over the course of the 3 seconds respectively.
Dead Hard gives the survivor a speed boost of 6m/s over 1.8s (successful attack), however during the attack cooldown killers slow down to 0.575m/s over 2.7 seconds.
Therefore, during the initial 1.8s of 6m/s, a survivor gains 5.425m of distance each second, meaning they gain 9.765m of distance. For the remaining 0.9s they gain 3.425m of distance, leading to 3.0825m of distance, for a grand total of 12.8475m.
In simply numbers, then, Dead Hard is the clear winner.
The difference comes from Sprint Burst being able to be used much easier (you press and hold a button, as opposed to timing the perk), and being able to be activated wherever. The killer doesn't have to be right behind you, so you can use it to excentuate an already large lead, allowing you to reach a safe structure from a deadzone just like DH can except without the hassle of being injured or timing.
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Hey, Thanks for the numbers on this. This is sorta stuff I rarely see in DH discussions. Very cool.
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I swear there is no more demoralizing feeling in DBD than seeing someone SB from miles away and knowing it's gonna take like 30 seconds to catch up
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Bonus points for that not even counting as chase.
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Those are very interesting numbers.
How do the values change with STBL stacks?
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So that extra 3m SB gets is 5s to 7.5s, without Bloodlust, assuming map geometry doesn't force them to come in closer. On top of the starting distance, yeah, 30s to catch up.
But at least you get to find that out without actually committing to 2 hits of a chase first.
The distance DH buys is 20-30s just to catch up again. On top of the wasted hit.
(0.4m/s vs 0.6m/s in catching up)
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I think the thing with SB (and also the other exhausting perks) is that it's not a flat number of seconds - but a relative amount of time. It extends the chase by, I'd say 25-30% of the survs average chase time when playing a tile/chaining tiles (so disregrding both surprise attacks/being caught in a deadzone, as well as "ShiftW and predrop"). While pure speed/distance is one aspect the arguably more important point is what this distance/speed is used for - and usually that is to get to a tile that you would otherwise not have made.
When I see SB... it's usally about 10-45seconds - depending on whether the user used it to greed a gen and doesn't make a safe tile (literally just catching up) or whether they time it one way or the other to make it to an extremely safe tile as a starting point of the chase (to be fair; if I see someone SBing to, say main on Garden of Joy, I go find someone else).
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You can calculate the distance and catch-up time if SB is used right up in the killer's face.
However, that's quite frankly not an optimal play unless the survivors was just looping with 99'd exhaustion.
SB must be used early, in which case it could end the chase right there, or be a time sink that the killer can simply not avoid if they commit. And there's no playing around that, barring faking leaving chase. Good luck with that.
Or, it's used on unsafe gens to make it to a loop. And in that case, again, there's not much playing around that.
Do those buy you more or less time than DH? Hard to say. But if we're talking about lose-lose for the killer, you'll quickly find out DH is not the only offender, just the only scapegoat.
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However, SB doesn't have the sunk cost associated with it. Is it annoying if someone uses it well for those purposes? Sure.
But, but, it's exposed straight up. Someone's used SB, and you know that. Whatever they've done is done, and it's now your choice whether to commit to that chase or go after somebody else. DH shows up at the end of the chase only, and then what? It's a perk that offers a terrible choice--abandon the chase after two hits, and let the person heal up (not having got a down in that time) or keep chasing them and sink even more time.
Playing around SB actually gives you options first. Playing around DH is 90% trying not to get hit with it and only 10% 'can I down someone else faster than get this third hit'.
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That's assuming they run in a straight line.
They usually do not.
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But DH can have its value negated while SB can't. DH is just more demoralizing than SB.
In terms of strength DH and SB are on par. Imo
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There is a pretty big sunk cost it's the time it took you to get to that gen and the time it takes you to find the next survivor and they could also SB away.
If you chase someone that SB away from a gen that's around 30 seconds of catch up time just to trigger chase and they are not at whatever strong loop they decided to run to.
DH will get one use at best aginst a decent killer once you know they have it it's baited out and even at that it gets baited out before they even get to use it.
You can't bait SB sure you can walk towards then and get them to take off but then you still have to go find a different survivor and that's a time sink all on its own.
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I just kinda let them run off and come back 20-30 seconds later. There are other survivors i can harrass in the meantime
If they spend their entire sprint burst to run away they just made 18m of distance which takes them 4.5 seconds to backtrack back to the gen.
7.5 seconds slowdown and using their exhaustion just from approaching a gen seems like a good deal to me
If you know it takes forever to catch up just don't. They are the ones who spend their exhaustion, you didn't spend anything yet
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There's more to using SB than just raw numbers in a straight line. SB can let you work on unsafe gens and still get away unscathed to a tile without losing a health state, which is superior to DH in those scenarios.
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DH is usually used without supporting perks. Lithe, Sprint burst, and Overcome are all much better with a supporting perk.
Lithe wants windows to avoid using the speed at a tile and going into a dead zone
SB wants Fixated to counter the walking penalty
Overcome wants Lucky Break because of the amazing synergy
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They are, but DH is more frustrating to face cause it changes how you play the entire chase.
Speaking of Blood Rush though, that should’ve been nerfed, as its design is atrocious and will make SB very annoying to face. Expect to see a lot of it if DH is nerfed.
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i can't wait to see these forever sprint burst builds. bloodrush & vigil
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SB is harder to quantify. I'm much less likely to commit to a confident SB user who uses it preemptively to make a ridiculous amount of distance. You actually have a chance to play around DH via reads, reactions, and ping. A good SB is the ultimate defensive perk. The chase is suboptimal the second it's used if the survivor used it early enough. 4 SB users who are actually good at the game require significantly more thought to beat than 4 good DH users.
Post edited by edgarpoop on4 -
With sprint burst, you can break off from the chase when you see them use it, unless they 99 it.
With DH you are already invested in the chase, and you don't want to leave it.
Aside from that, I believe sprint burst, if used correctly(knowing when to use it, and when to save it) is slightly stronger than DH as it provides consistant value, although DH is much more infuriating on the killer side.
If DH was nerfed, I don't think killrates would change at all and only a few whiny survivors would get pissed.
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Its about 7 seconds. Imagine a map that is an infinite straight line in all directions, and the killer is running at a survivor. The survivor starts running away from the killer when they are 30 meters way. Survivor speed is 4.0 m/s, killer is 4.6 m/s and lunge distance is 6 meters.
To close the gap of 30-6 = 24 meters to lunge at the survivor, the killer gains 0.6 meters of distance every second on the survivor. Meaning it will take 40 seconds to catch the survivor if they do not have sprint burst.
If the survivor DOES have sprint burst, then for 3 seconds, they run at 6.0 m/s instead of 4.0 m/s. This amounts to, instead of losing 1.8 meters of distance in those 3 seconds, they actually GAIN 4.2 meters of distance. You are probably noticing that this doesn't even cover the distance it takes to do a lunge, but if we plug in those numbers, now the survivor is 30+4.2-6(lunge distance) = 28.2 meters of distance away from being hit. The time it takes to close this gap at gaining 0.6 m/s of distance is 47 seconds.
Thus, in this most ideal "hold w" scenario, of a map with infinite straight lines, sprint burst gains the survivor a grand total of 7 seconds of distance. In reality, bloodlust is a thing as well, so it probably actually amounts to a little bit less, maybe around 6 seconds, but this math is easier.
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One thing I like about Sprint Burst is that it can be used proactively. If I know the killer isn't interested in me I can get around map quicker, which is always useful.
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I will like to add part of the value of SB isn't the raw distance but the imediate value of it. Many gens in unsafe areas are make significantly better is you have SB to carry you to the tile, conversely it's a very good perk against many high mobility or stealth killers who don't give you much time to run when they approach your gen. In terms of raw distance yes it's ~7 seconds but a good player can always use that to get to shack or avoid a hit where they otherwise may not be able to making it much more.
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If I saw lobbies full of sb users I'd be pretty happy. I rarely they use it well and they are normally super obvious. Gee I wonder why meg and steve are slow walking out in front of me, I wonder what will happen if I take one step towards them? I remember when they changed dead hard and everyone was saying "enjoy all the sb users killers" etc and yeah I saw more sb than before and nope it wasn't really a big deal.
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When people use sprint burst early that’s when it becomes an issue as continuing to chase them will cost a ton of time. If they are holding it they are using it wrong as you said just like many use dead hard wrong
Nothing is worse than 4 good SB users if you are playing a weaker killer
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-"Dead Hard is the clear winner."
But your numbers do not reflect the actual distance you can get.
With SB you run in the killers face and he knows you have no tricks left. They get in lunge range and swing immediately.
With DH you get to loop and then you get distance so you can loop some more. In the right terrain DH can turn a 20 second chase into a 40 or 60 second chase. You will never do that with SB.
-"Nothing is worse than 4 good SB users if you are playing a weaker killer"
When you say weaker I assume you mean : moves slowly and/or m1 killer.
We should just make all the killers either have teleports, a movement speed power or be 120% speed.
Edit: no movement speed boosts for killers with projectile attacks.
Take every killer that has no movement power or teleport power and give them a 5% speed boost. Now they suck a lot less. "But that would break looping". The killers literally have no option at most safe loops so giving them more speed would make them fair again.
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Making characters like Artist and Knight 120% is not a good idea since they already deny looping completely. It would only encourage holding W even more
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I should have mentioned : no movement speed for killers with a projectile attack (huntress/artist/trickster/plague).
This would help a ton of the low tier bad killers like Doctor, Trapper, Pig, etc.
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This is why I said, right before what you quoted, "In simply numbers, then". Meaning there is more to the story, more nuance to the situation, far more variables than can be calculated in a simple mathematical formula. Depending on the situation, Sprint Burst can be substantially stronger, or one Dead Hard can be the single deciding factor between winning and losing a game. There's too many things that can happen in a game to quantify into one equation, which is why I didn't try to, and why I specified that I didn't try to do just that, because I'd be there for forever and a day and still wouldn't come up with an accurate number for an objective winner.
Because there isn't an objective winner.
Both SB and DH are very strong perks, and while I'd say DH is better due to its versatility I cannot completely ignore the low skill floor and easy accessibility of SB.
I'd rather face 4x DH than 4x SB, because chances are with 4x DH users at least 1 will mess it up, and I'll be able to capitalise on that mistake. With 4x SB users, because it's so easy to use and can make any desdzone completely irrelevant (SB turns Saloon from a killer sided map to literally nothing but the main building, which is heavily survivor favoured, for example).
More happens in each situation than can be put into variables and formulas. But OP asked which perk gives more distance, so I specified limitations and gave some objectively correct numbers.
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Hi! I promise I wasn't ignoring you, I was just out of the house most of yesterday and wanted to do these on my computer, because it's easier to screenshot and I cannot imagine having done this on my notes app.
(If people find issue with my workings out, I will gladly explain my thought process- it's entirely possible I did these calculations incorrectly, because maths isn't my strongest point).
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Even Nurse will have a hard time with 4 early SBs. Early SBs in the right direction make it extremely difficult to control the macro game as killer. It becomes really inefficient. It involves baiting out the SB and trying to catch them cheating back towards the gens on a re-patrol while their exhaustion is on cooldown. Just all around annoying.
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Wow, that is way more effort than i was intending. This is amazing, great work xD
But, just looking, it seems you made a mistake calculating the distance for the first 6 stacks:
I think you need to multiply (x-1.8) by the distance of 3.425 (which is the distance a survivor gets while the killer is moving at 0.575m/s in 1 second)
This means:
1 stack: 12.37m
2 stacks: 11.92m
3 stacks: 11.44m
4 stacks: 11m
5 stacks: 10.52m
6 stacks: 10.07m
I believe for 7 and 8 stacks the values are correct
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Once upon a time SB had a 20 second cooldown and you could get the perk back while running (and yes there were people who quit when the 20 second timer was changed- exhaustion didn't come till much later).
You would be just about to lunge at someone and bam off they go. As a matter of fact I can tell you that it usually took about 16-17 seconds to catch up to the player who had SB. This left a very small margin of time to catch up to someone using the perk. Something to note about this time : the tip of your lunge attack actually had longer reach than what we have now. That is not to say things were easier as I can assure you that the terrain in 2016 was monstrous to chase someone around unless you were Billy.
Mechanically Sprint Burst usually only gets you 5-7 seconds of distance on average unless you are on a slow killer and the survivor does something to make more distance : like vault a drop at Mid staircase.
Last night I played against someone using DH at the upper end of the player skill spectrum. He looped for a while before he needed a pallet. Then he got hit. Then he used DH and threw two more pallets. This wasted over a minute. No other exhaustion perk in the game can compare to that.
Let's say you had a 2016 level of sprint burst and you got ~16 seconds (you cant anymore b/c every vault is no longer a fast vault). You would mechanically be behind to the tune of 44 seconds as a result of one DH.
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That's not how Nurse works. When you play Nurse every chase is "fine". The only exception maybe is Lerrys where the interior corridors can be confusing.
SB against nurse makes her use +1 set of blinks for distance. And then they have nothing except clever movement left as an option.
If we took some of the world's 20 best players and mashed them together to play games I suspect the breakdown be such that DH would outperform SB against nurse.
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SB had a 20 second cooldown between the days of the 16th and the 29th of June 2016, as it was nerfed in patch 1.0.2. If people were quitting during early dbd, it sure as hell wasn't because SB was nerfed.
And nowhere in that comment do you disprove what my comment was about- that I provided objective numbers as to how much distance exactly one would gain from using both perks, and then said that there was no realistic way to measure any of the other variables so I made sure to state there was much more to the story than just these numbers. Which you tried to criticise me on, and in order to do so you completely ignored an entire clause of a sentence adding major context, before now... Agreeing with the conclusion I came to initially.
Make it make sense
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-"Which you tried to criticise me on"
I'm not being critical of you. I am sorry if you think that is the case.
"I provided objective numbers ... and then said that there was no realistic way to measure any of the other variables."
What I was merely pointing out is that DH allows you to use the distance in a way that allows for maximum distance because you can play around any variables in a map in the middle of the chase. In other words you can loop get hit, use DH and then loop some more.
SB prevents a hit and then you can loop but you can't reset. The difference is massive when you actually consider the variables and not just the speed advantage.
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