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I’ve Said It Before, But The 3 Gen Complaints Need To Stop
You have every right to complain about long matches against our favorite boring ass killer, but you guys saying that guarding 3 gens in close proximity to one another needs to be removed need to knock it off as what you’re asking for is literally impossible. There’s no viable way to prevent gens from spawning close together or implementing some other system to kill the strat without severely unbalancing the game entirely. And don’t say it’s a perk problem either. 3 gens have been viable without CoB/OC for all these years, and will continue to flourish with other perks, including weaken versions of the two I mentioned. What you guys should be asking for is reworks to SM as this is literally the problem here, especially when she literally cannot do anything else but guard a 3 gen. Even Knight’s power has more strength to it where 3 genning is not the only option for him.
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sorry, killers using any sort of strategy requires immediate dev attention
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Seems like we're going back to 2016
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3 gens have always been a thing but they’ve never been as obnoxious as they have been since last summer. It’s both a perk problem and a killer problem.
In order to fix it you’d need to address killers that are over-reliant on it (Skull Merchant included) and then address the perks (CoB and OC) that are exacerbating the issue. The Eruption nerf was just step 1. Gen-kick meta is making the game stale and something needs to change.
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Three gen setups have been part of the game since 2016. If you ever played DBD in that era you might remember a time before killers could kick generators.
It is only a relatively recent change in DBD ideas that "killers should not be allowed to have three gens". The killer response to this ludicrous challenge is : survivors should not have 4 alive players - allow me to tunnel you out of the game.
Part of what makes small maps like Abattoir fair is that you can turn multiple locations into a possible three gen. Maps that require the killer to hold one specific 3 gen setup or they lose are incredibly boring. An example of this type of play is Dead Dawg Saloon, Azarov's Remains and Crow map before its rework (you held the 3 gen behind main or gg).
A full breakdown of the Abattoir map can be found here in this thread : https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367074#Comment_3367074
What makes a map fair?
- It's 9000m² or smaller AND the tiles are not overly linked together (this disqualifies Coal Tower as a fair map).
- There are a low number of pallets. In the case of Abattoir there are usually 8 pallets (this disqualifies The Game).
- There are multiple locations where the killer can potentially hold a 3 gen setup.
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"you can complain about any killer as long as it's not one I play"
nice lmao.
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Nerfing CoB and OC would not stop the problem, especially when there’s no good way of nerfing them without ruining them. Plus, OC is already weak enough as is.
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Killers like skull merchant and knight make it super difficult and sometimes impossible to finish a 3 gen stack. Matches literally take 30-45 minutes because the killer won’t chase outside the 3 gen.
I think gens should spawn evenly on maps, similar to hooks and never side by side.
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Guarding 3-gens from the start of the game until the bitter end over an hour later needs to go.
Anything that enables that style of play should be looked at.
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CoB and OC are the perks giving strength to this strategy. Rework or nerf them so regression is awarded for chases and progressing the game and this would be less viable.
Perks like Corrupt and deadlock already passively slowdown the game if the killer isn't doing well in chases, but CoB and OC are just handholding and rewarding killers that purposely avoid doing their mission, which is kill survivors and chase them, removing the interaction between killer and survivor
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We need an action speed buff and debuff cap, alongside buffing base regression speed, while toning down a few of the perks
Not to mention the problem with maps
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And stop the Gen Tapping strat....
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the 3 gen defense has been a core strategy actually for years, its just that not many killers new about and/or employed it, even though it was talked about in basically every single "learn killer tutorial" video I ever watched. Its a bit akin to splitting up on gens: this was always the most effective way to play, yet prior to 6.1 most survivors didn't care as they could do pretty well without. 6.1 forced them to split up, and now it's basically the expected way of doing things.
This is the other side of the gameplay medal: over the years, change in the meta and gameplay have ironed out imperfections and inefficiencies on both sides play book and now even casuals can play like a pro from a couple years back.
We can't put the genie back in the bottle and make players unlearn tactics, but BHVR could do a big health update and try to factory zero a couple of developments, by doing some bold and sweeping changed to the games formula.
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yes nerf skunk merchant to the ground ( her ability to play as gen camping kicking bot and give her something else as compensation ) or even better send her back to the deepest hole in hell and bring back space Billy
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The old meta featured completely different perks compared to what we have now, so your comparison to old dbd falls a little flat. For ruin, before the broken form of undying, you had one totem and it could be broken meaning your 3 gen wasn't as strong. And with Pop, the activation condition meant you couldn't just sit by gens all day kicking them, you actually had to chase. But with how cob eruption and over charge work, there's absolutely no way of stopping it from being applied. Since neither one of those perks has a special condition killers can kick the same 3 gens over and over with little to no counter play.
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I do think survivors should be able to 3 gen themselves if they aren't paying attention, but killer being able to maintain a 3 gen from match start and be rewarded for it against most survivors is stupid.
They could start by nuking Azarov's Resting Place and Suffocation Pit because those maps always feel like "3 Gen or Lose"
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It’s not to look at certain maps (suffocation pit as a prime example) and realise that the 3 Gen strategy is clearly something the devs have not accidentally put into the game. But I don’t think they really want it to be done to the extent that some killers are able to do it.
They should standardise all map sizes, improve RNG-especially scourge hook RNG and stop very strong pallets spawning within inches of each other- and evenly distribute gens across the map.
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Not well enough, also kicking gens is one of the “missions” for killer, don’t pull ######### out of your ass.
Ruin still facilitated 3 gens then and it would do so now, especially if you dedicated more slots to totem perks. Someone like SM could easily use it to great success, by guarding a totem on top of their 3 gen. Costless fast regression is necessary, and with Ruin gone, Call of Brine and Overcharge need to stay.
And make the maps even more survivor sided? No thanks.
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You don't win by kicking gens, you win by killing survivors. That is your objective, not kick gens, that is a killer tool.
Thats like saying survivor's mission is to cleanse totems, you can do it, but nothing forces you to do it. So maybe you might want to start and read what i am trying to say instead of just being aggressive for no reason.
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Other than fixing a few problematic three gens like the one on RPD literally all they have to do is have activation conditions for gen kick perks. The issue is simple and it's the fact that you can kick a gen over and over again. You don't have to chase anyone to earn the insane amount of regression you can get from gen kick perks. Pain Res makes you work for it. Old pop made you work for it. Add a token system or a hook requirement and the problem will go away in most situations. Like you hook someone and you get X amount of tokens. The effect is the same but killers can't hold the game hostage until the server shuts down.
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And you kill survivors by slowing them down to where they can’t finish their objective quickly. Can’t expect people to 12 hook without defending gens when necessary.
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Defending gens, that doesn't mean kicking. You can make perfectly viable builds or play styles where you don't kick a single gen. You can have 4 slowdowns and not kick a single gen. You don't need 12 hooks to win, and i doubt most people try to go for 12 hooks. If you go i applaud you, but i don't care about it.
Besides, the biggest objective is to kill the survivor, i just don't think that if this two perks are so valuable that makes killers stop wanting to chase survivors just to kick gens, that is a problem. If the killer gets the best slowdown from chases and downs i think the game is more enjoyable for both sides. That's my opinion
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Maybe that’s cause the issue here is that they released a killer so weak that there’s no incentive to go for chases especially when the power’s literally only good for defending gens. Chases as a whole don’t favor killers very well, which is why some people prefer to defend gens, especially when some maps are basically unplayable if you don’t play for a 3 gen, like The Game for example. Let’s not gatekeep how people should play the game, especially when a lot of us use CoB OC cause they’re the best perks for obliterating kicked gens considering Pop is ######### dead.
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I mained hag 2 weeks after I started playing dbd, one guide and I already knew to set up a web around 3-4gens. I used it when I went to other killers as well but it didn't work near as well obviously. Every single killer can 3-gen very effectively with the gen kick perks.
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Obviously now that these perks have changed ruin could be used in that way. But I'm referring to the fact that you're comparing pre gen kick meta, to the current gen kick meta. Prior to CoB, Overcharge and Eruption being buffed to synergize really well with each other. Old ruin without undying could be cleansed and removed for the rest of the match. However, there's no real way to get rid of gen kick perks permanently. Scott Jund recently made a video about 3 gens, and he goes into detail about how the gen kick meta forces survivors to play a certain way.
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3 gen strategies aren't necessarily new. They've been an elephant in the room for a long time. Anyone who has paid attention to competitive play would remember that games even as far back as 2020 would go into the 30 minute range depending on the gen splits. It's just bleeding into public matches now (hey devs, pay attention high level play).
Due to gen kick regression buffs, it is *much* easier for the average killer to hold a 3 gen now. We also have map development that is overlooking gen layout a lot of the time.
I think both sides should have to play with strategy regarding the gens. But there should never be a point where the game effectively turns into a stalemate where either side loses if they attempt to meaningfully advance their objective. Let's be real. It's not fair to either side. Not all 3 gens are the survivor's doing. And at the same time, it shouldn't be a guaranteed loss for the killer to commit to any chase if survivors are smart about chase location.
Neither side should be expected to throw the game to advance it, but that's the situation we currently have with killers like Knight/Skull Merchant/Twins/Hag/etc and gen kick perks.
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I get your point, but I just genuinely don’t think there’s any way to curb the problem without heavily changing lots of aspects from the game, ranging from killer powers to maps and whatnot.
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Sorry but a lot of people are going to disagree with you on this, especially well respected youtubers who are killer mains that also agree the 3-Gen meta is boring, unfun to play with/against and causing player burn out.
SM is a problem. She was rushed out, its plain as day. But the DNA of DBD is tenuous in its longevity and players are feeling the burnout from the issues. Gen spawns have always been rocky at best (with some gents spawning unbelievably close to each other.)
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I think most people complaining about the 3-gen situation realize that it’s a perk and a killer design problem. But it’s a game design problem too. The ability for either side to draw out the game to infinite duration should not exist. There needs to be a mechanic to punish killers who refuse to chase/down survivors and there needs to be a mechanic to punish survivors who refuse to touch gens. People have been asking for these changes for a long time but devs have not prioritized
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3-gens have always been a thing but before they buffed gen-kick perks, and before they released back-to-back killers who excel at holding down an area, it was harder to do, and survivors actually had a chance at breaking the 3-gen down. Ruin+Undying could be cleansed and Pop required the killer to actually chase, so even a killer trying to hold a 3-gen would usually still try a bit more to chase, and even if they didn't, smart survivors could slowly chip away at the gens since base regression is garbage.
Now with CoB/Overcharge/Nowhere to Hide and even Eruption thrown in, there's simply nothing even a good 4-man can do to break it against certain killers. The slowdown SM's drones and Knight's guards give ensures that CoB can undo what small amounts of progress survivors can even do. In the meantime the killer will be looking for easy injures and trying to clear all pallets nearer to the 3gen to make it even harder for survivors and slow em even more.
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I have always said that it is awful that killers often lose the first 2-3 gens in a chase, and it would be nice if the game time was more evened out, so maybe the game wasn't so back loaded to those last couple gens. And i the answer i always get is: "the game is balanced around killers being stronger with less gens" and "git gud"
Well, i'm going to response in kind by saying the same thing back to you at this point.
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Absolutely, but how do you deal with that without preventing killers from punishing survs for the self-imposed three gen?
Because just eliminating the three gen altogether is a non-starter.
A killer just sitting on a three gen from the jump is super lame, but if a surv team just starts working on gens from one side of the map to the other and leaving three in a corner is something they should absolutely be made to pay for.
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3 gens have always been part of the game, but you could still see progress in the past. It was slow progress but it was a determined 'okay, we can do this' thing, as opposed to the current 'yeah there's no point' when you come back to a gen you've been working on repeatedly for 10 minutes and oops, now it's back at zero. You don't want to spend another 10 minutes, knowing it will probably end up back at 0% anyway and you're just wasting your time. And you've likely hit max gen bloodpoints at that stage too, so you aren't even getting anything for your efforts.
It's not the 3 gen strat that is the issue, it's the gen regression perks that typically accompany it. That creates the perfect stalemate. Past 3 gens you could still knuckle down and keep progress, while the killer reaped the benefit of extra hooks and kills. There was still progress. The inability to gain progress now is what is dragging the games out.
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If every killer could do something real and effective in-chase, then they might be more inclined to leave the last 3 gens since they're supposed to stop survivors from powering gates by any means necessary according to the actual game manual (not the fake, constantly morphing survivor-written dictations).
Patrolling the only part of the map that matters based on the limitations of your killer's kit is not "camping the 3-gen." It's literally doing what the real game manual says you ought to do as the power role.
If you leave the last 3 gens to take a chase that you cannot end quickly, you are asking for a loss as the killer. So stop trying to suggest anything along the lines of punishing the killer for not being stupid and chasing you off into oblivion on a pallet tour while your mates polish off the last objective unabated.
So you think you're a good survivor?
- Why aren't you using Deja Vu to know where every possible 3-gen is as the game progresses?
- Why aren't you charging potential energy for the inevitable macro play that a good killer will make?
- Why aren't you using hyperfocus/stakeout in tandem with potential energy and stacked toolboxes to massacre the last gen?
- Why are you ignoring the tools availed to you for dealing with 3-gen strats and instead using casual, random builds and running in with no game plan expecting to beat a good killer who DOES have a game plan?
- Why are you constantly trying to lobby for the game to become some horror-themed cakewalk instead of exercising a basic level of intelligence like an actual good survivor?
It isn't easy to blaze through all objectives and therefore isn't "fun?" Sounds like you're having a hard time accepting that a game (especially a PvP game) is meant to be an actual contest (there's a reason it's called a "trial" and not called a "ride").
I swear if BHVR keeps on developing based on the opinions of people who don't even fully understand what's going on, DbD will cease to be a contest and as such will cease to be an actual game.
The OP is absolutely correct according to the fact of the matter.
FYI,
"Game"
noun:
a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
TL:DR (Attention span too tiny)
Stop whining that your formless, random gameplay isn't beating high caliber killer players.
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Since when is stalemating a game until one side gives up or the server shuts off "high caliber." Hahaha you're a funny one.
"Only run perks that speed up gen progress every game, despite there being over 100 survivor perks, purely because you must break 3 gens at all cost on the off chance that you run into a Skull Merchant, who can literally spawn in next to the 3 gen you want to break with gen kick regression perks and never leave, making all your anti-3 gen perks useless."
Quit acting like you're some kind of arbiter of the truth of dbd. Your whole comment shows you have a poorer understanding of this game than anybody else in this thread. Try pulling your head out of your ass and learning how to talk to people, because you sound like someone who's only interaction with other humans has been through a computer.
TL;DR Please go outside and touch some grass for your own good. This is a video game, not a Hunger Game.
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they dont we need to keep them coming 3 gen is dumb because is not the killer creating it, is BHVR doing it and is dumb.
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Is there really only 8 pallets on that map?
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so you can't think like that when each of these pallets is a : you must break this or I can run around it forever even with bloodlust 3 kind of pallet.
But generally yes, there are 8 god pallets.
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Killers can protect a 3-gen from the beginning of the match
but if survivors barely do any effort to repair these gens they are prone to be banned for "holding the game hostage"
Not fair
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Well well well,
Eruption die for this,
now let nerf other killer perk that I dont like to play with. Time for a new mission eh?
Oh, isnt Eruption reward from downing survivor and win chases which is killer mission? :D
What a broken record!
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I have to disagree here with regards to your comments on the gen spawns. There is a viable way of making them more evenly distributed without creating even more issues. It's already a system in place with the sacrificial hooks.
The hooks currently have a set distance they need to be minimally spaced between each of them. The branch offerings either increase or decrease the spacing and there are many around the map. There are only 7 generators to take into consideration.
The same system can be put into place for the gens. It may already be in place, but if so the values clearly aren't correct. RPD is a perfect example, as I shouldn't need to use just one flight of stairs to get to 1 gen from the other. Each map could have a distance value between gens in relation to its size. It's a method that would balance it better, IMO.
As for the Skull Merchant, perhaps put in place something to make the exposed part fairer. With 3-gen situations, her drones can more or less guarantee an exposed status along the area. Maybe have an RNG in place for how far drones are apart to activate exposed? That way, the Skull Merchant has to choose between information gathering and fast knockdowns.
3-gens is a valid tactic and you're right a change to the Skull Merchant is needed, but gens can be looked at and a better RNG value on them would make the balance fairer.
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-"There is a viable way of making them more evenly distributed without creating even more issues."
Some of the maps in DBD already have fair map distributions. Largely speaking the only fair maps are those that are smaller than 9000m².
Small maps allow killers with normal speed to patrol and chase without issue. The same killers on a large map must immediately play : 3 gen or gtfo. Nobody enjoys the game that follows. Any map that has a "3 gen or GTFO" map scheme is not fair. Any map that has stupidly linked tiles is not fair. Any map that has way too many pallets is not fair.
Each of these three reasons makes Dead Dawg, Coal Tower and "The Game" unfair maps even though they are small sized.
Wrecker's yard is literally the perfectly fair map. There are multiple possible 3 gen locations. The map has strong pallets but not too many. The map is small so at least once per game you will be chasing player one and end up chasing player two as well. That "double" chase effect is what makes DBD fair as a 4v1 game. Large maps completely delete this as an option - so the killer just tunnels and 3 gens.
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Uh yes, if the killer doesn't leave their 3-gen the entire match, then it is easy to charge potential energy from multiple people and massacre the last gen as I've stated. If you want to beat good killers, those killers are going to 3-gen because that's the best defensive tactic and you can't just bring whatever you want if you expect to beat them, just like a killer can't bring random builds and expect to beat good survivors that will try to break up and separate 3-gens.
It's nobody's problem but yours if non-sugarcoated facts about the structure of the game make you emotional.
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I blame SWF’s. Every problem this game has is due to SWF’s.
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Ok, if you think bhvr is gonna let big streamers keep joking about 30 to 45 min games and do nothing.
Either those perks or knight and SM are gonna get nerfed.
But sure, it's easier to believe people just want to ruin killer.
The cat is out of the bag, everyone knows about this strategy, how consistent it is, how easy it is to pull of and that it works against high MMR survivors.
If you want to blame someone, blame bhvr for launching two 3 gen, stalling killers in a row
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So what, you expect all survivors to bring potential energy for every match, just in case a killer decides to do it?
Because 1 survivor bringing potential energy is not gonna break a 3 gen. It is kinda stupid that the perk made to counter 3 gen looses to the 3 gen meta, you are better with prove, deja vu or built to last with a busted toolbox
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It's so boring though, and when I first started playing I never had this issue, now it's almost every game. Lately I've barely been playing matches because this new killer, it's all they can do.
I can't control what others do and the way they play, nor do I want to, if the killer wants to defend a three gen so be it. It's the devs fault for creating it, allowing it etc. I'm not a game dev, it's not my job to fix it and while I wish I had a solution, I don't.
If being a streamer does something to get their attention I can start back my account with a 200k following, if that's what it takes, (which is sad lol) but I still don't have any ideas how to fix it. Don't make killers whose main power is to defend a three Gen from the start? Idk >.>
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The fact that you think that one must bring Potential Energy every game in order to break 3 gens against a Skull Merchant camping a tight 3 gen running Call of Brine and Overcharge and refuses to take any chases outside of the 3 gen is hilarious.
Last time I checked, 20% - 80% of a gen, the maximum percentage you could possibly get if the stars align and all 4 survivors are running Potential Energy, is less than 100% of a gen, and that can easily be lost if the killer kicks and guards the gen or just basic attacks you to make you lose stacks.
But please, by all means, keep preaching about how Potential Energy has to be run every game in order to save us from the occasional 30+ minute Skull Merchant game, because honestly it's pretty entertaining, kind of like those guys in New York City who shout "The end is near!" while carrying a poorly made sign.
It's like you don't even know that there are 31 different killers that you have to prepare your perks against, and the vast majority of games will never require breaking a 3 gen, and that even if you do they can usually just be broken with a little teamwork unless the killer's power was just plain badly conceived and implemented.
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Conveniently forgetting about bnp's in tandem, I see. Come on now.
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Isn’t this a survivor problem? Killers are really being complained about for doing this?
I am a survivor main and I always pay attention to which gens pop. I have been seeing a lot of survivors lately (for a solid 3 months min) leave our gen once it pops and immediately run to next the closest one. THIS is the problem.
When I am killer, I always try to force the 3 gen. I assumed it was obvious when I walk past them on one gen but keep them off of another. It’s legitimate strategy.
I mean, honestly, I guess instead of complaining and continuing to want matches handed to them, the survivors that are complaining could just counter it by paying attention and using common sense not to do 3 gens right next to one another 🤯
The biggest part that is annoying to me is when we get 3 gen’d and there is always that one survivor that gets butthurt it isn’t an easy match and DC’s.
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First of all, you need to copywrite "3 gen or GTFO maps". That's a great phrase!
I hear what you're saying and absolutely agree on larger maps a Trapper has to adopt that sort of policy, unlike a Nurse. It's the safest solution for a killer to save running about as much. Not to say that's impossible, because people who have played Trapper have won on larger maps. Their tactics just change.
Back to the rng aspect, on larger maps it can still be altered. Taking into account what you've mentioned, larger maps would probably need a min/max distance implicated. There has to be a sweet spot between making it fair for survivor and killer. It would be easier to impliment than redesign the large maps again.
Also, you made an interesting point about the excessive pallets and also those link tiles. There could be an rng element to that too that could be introduced. Maybe also add some more types of tiles which are less intricate or change the value of how many pallets there are based on map size.
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