Are people truly incapable of countering dead hard?
So many threads complaining about this recently. And it mystifies me, I'm no killer main for sure, but not a surv main either. I play both rolls roughly equally. For a start it isn't easy to hit, you can force a trigger by running at killer but it only works against players who M1 at the earliest possible second.
Killer is the easiest roll by a longshot. My mmr has been throwing lots of extremely good teams at me recently. I see DH a lot, but I rarely struggle against it. Baiting it out is pretty easy in most situations, really the only time I lose decent time becuase of it is when it's forced on a pallet. You literally get within swing distance and hold off for one second, watch the dab then drop the surv. It isn't hard. This strategy has worked against players with 100days plus solid play time. My record being one who has played the game for over 300 days.
But the way I see a lot of posts on here complain about it makes lt sound like they swing into it constantly and lose a lot of their games solely due to this perk. So it's either a wider skill issue or just killer main mentality bias, hating on whichever perk irritates them the most.
Tbh from my experience the perk is an important one for game balance, it's probably the best (if high risk) exhaustion perk in the game. Game balance already tips in the killer's favour, without DH, or if it gets nerfed into the ground that gap will only widen and kill rates will spike.
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I have seen killers waiting for dh when survivors were in deep wound state or when they had just used sprint burst, many do not even know what they are doing
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I've been getting that impression
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- Survivors can hold their DH to force you to either give them Endurance and run away or drop the pallet and run away.
- All types of range attacks are countered (hatches, demo shred, wesker's dash, long M1, etc.)
- You HAVE to wait on every single Survivor (until you know their other exhaustion perk) before you can attack them, this can take even up to 6+ seconds before you can attack them and even then Survivor can use DH to counter it.
- One good DH on each Survivor can cost you XX seconds in chase extra.
- The best killers in the game (Nurse, Blight, etc.) are less effected by this perk, meaning the weaker killers will be the most punished if this perk works (the Killers where you need the least this perk on).
I really don't know why people complain about this perk...
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May I offer you a cup of coffee and a protein bar in preparation for the intense disagreements and debating that will no doubt follow ? =)
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If you can figure out a way to counter auto DH scripts, let me know
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Well it's annoying at vaults as well, because you are forced into a situation where if you lunge they dead hard and if you don't lunge they vault. Also counters demo shred, wesker, and knight guard pretty hard.
Regardless of it's actual power level it's boring how overused it is and it's very frustrating to hit a survivor, they play the downed sound but they don't go down. You can't even lunge at an injured survivor just because of this 1 survivor perk out of 102. It's just ridiculous how much control it has over the game.
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You see, those 2 phrase are what keeps me wondering.
I see DH a lot, but I rarely struggle against it. Baiting it out is pretty easy in most situations...
Game balance already tips in the killer's favour, without DH, or if it gets nerfed into the ground that gap will only widen and kill rates will spike.
If its pretty easy to bait out, then it shouldn´t have an impact on the kill rates. Unless, it isn´t easy to bait out and has an impact.
I´m afraid it can´t be both at the same time.
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It depends if the survivor is at a pallet or not, if its in the open its nowhere near as bad.
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If you can tell me the actual number of times that youve proven you went against a scripter let me know
Ill give you 5$ if theres more than 3
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There are situations where it is uncounterable. Besides, it is obnoxious having to second guess every swing until you determine who has Dead Hard or not.
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I think it should be bit nerfed. Killer should be showed who has it so then you don't have to bait it out when survivor does not even have it. I think that is biggest issue. Also maybe the sprint burst should be smaller as well.
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It’s a 3rd health state, plain and simple. I put it on all my bots and I’m pretty decent at countering it. That said it’s still incredibly frustrating to deal with. Really takes away the satisfaction of a down. If you mess it up they get a nice speed boost, probably to a strong tile and the rest are still on gens.
A single Dead Hard can win the game. Multiply that by the 3 or 4 Survivors using it and you are walking a tight rope as Killer.
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Who says it does have an impact on the killrates? The devs have never shown any stats that specifically show the escape rate of Survivors with DH and without it
Its really not that oppressive of a perk, it can be annoying, but annoying doesnt equal oppressive. I myself dont have an issue with it but I do want it changed just because the majority don't enjoy dealing with it.
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I've never used DH as survivor and when I play killer I honestly don't see it alot, or maybe they don't get value from it so I don't notice. So if it gets nerfed into the ground it's whatever. But i doubt kill rates will spike without it. I think its current form is so dependent on factors like timing and latency that it hardly carries people like it did in the past. I've been seeing Sprint Burst more and more anyway recently, particularly among popular streamers, so I think people are already switching up and adapting in anticipation of another DH rework.
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OP did in the 2 phrases i highlighted.
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Are you trying to imply you go against atleast 1 auto DH a match? Lmao some killer mains man…
I had a killer DC after my friend on PS5 pulled off a DH after spinning 3 times and guessing correctly when the killer would attack. He was blaming my friend for using auto DH which is impossible on consoles. Maybe admit you got outplayed and you aren’t as good as you think you are?
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Wow DH is so easy to counter and barely ever works or gives any value that's why no one uses it
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Here's the thing; old DH was completely uncounterable, was used for guaranteed safety/distance in a horribly unbalanced state.
The amount of time you extend a chase by when you pull off a DH is warranted and earned now. A lot of killers (bad or biased, take your pick) will complain about this perk losing them a match but they won't see all the times DH isn't successful. Acting like 'waiting it out' extends chase time by a huge amount is laughable and silly, most people are not running auto DH scripts and will use it within the first few seconds of the killer reaching them if they aren't near anything to help them (window, pallet). There are PLENTY of people who play killer and while it may be 'annoying', it isn't game breaking or unbalanced like old DH or old Eruption & they know it.
I've realized the people who want this nerfed are just bad and/or incredibly biased. There's no objectivity with them and they don't really care if they show it. In another thread about this, one guy even stated 'well they nerfed Eruption, now they have to nerf DH'. Great reasoning /s.
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This is a game where u fight for every single metre and fraction of a second and killers having to follow every single survivor that havent revealed their exhaustion perk for up to 5-6 seconds already makes it one of the best perks in the game even if it never lands.
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well it's quite simple, i'm good so i would never, ever swing into dead hard (there is no possible way and this is totally not just cope)
since i'm a literal god at the game and infalliable, anyone who outplays... erm, i mean cheats against me must have been using auto DH
All jokes aside, I have recently become somewhat more sympathetic towards killer players who are frustrated by dead hard; after using it a bit, there are a lot more scenarios than I initially imagined where just having low ping virtually guarantees a DH usage if the killer is on autopilot. The killer still has tools to outplay most DH, but it does suck to have to be paying that extra bit of attention every second of the game.
Auto DH complaints are still overblown though. certainly the scripts exist, but i think they're nowhere near as popular as people think they are
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Well except some very specific cases with telegraphed powers and a few really tight spots namely pallets the perk is pretty counterable yet the majority of killer players act like it's old DH
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New dead hard is really a shadow of its former self. It lost a lot.
Its still can be a bit of a get out of jail free card though so you are gonna see it run a lot and when used well it can extend a chase but that's what its for.
The problem lies in the broader issue that chasing on the whole often isn't worth it.
At base the time sink to chase is often not worth the return so dead hard still has a disproportionate feeling when it comes to getting a down and hook.
Its why 3 gen'ing and tunneling make the most sense in a lot of games. Chasing 4x people separately usually isn't that efficient even without deadhard, when you add 4x dead hard it becomes less efficient.
Its not that deadhard is OP its that sinking your time into multiple chases is rarely worth the payoff. At least not till you get it down to 3v1, at that point deadhard becomes largely irrelevant.
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1) I’m not a “killer main” (I play both sides about equally), 2) I don’t think I’m good, but thanks for the nice little unsolicited jab there, and 3) I wasn’t implying anything about how frequently I see auto DH.
I always try to bait out DH and sometimes it works. There are also occasions where the same person will time it impossibly well every single time.
So for those times where the person it timing it impossibly well, they are either amazingly good at pressing a button at the right time or they are cheating. Either way, ######### am I supposed to do to counter it? If there is no way to counter it, how am I being “outplayed”?
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That’s the problem - you can’t prove it. But it doesn’t really matter. Players either are 100% perfect at timing DH every single time or a lot of players are cheating. In either case, there is no counter and that’s what I and a lot of others are complaining about. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think a lot of people would agree that an uncounterable third health state for survivors is a bit too overpowered and unhealthy for game balance.
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It's fair to compare DH to Eruption. They hurried up and dumpstered Eruption because of how survivors complained that the incapacitated was miserable to play against. DH has been miserable to play against for six years but the killer quality of life is of little to no concern so it remains overpowered and annoying. Not one person likes the gameplay loop of constantly waiting out DH every chase
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Survivors mains are the cash cow. They have to be buying more cosmetics per person on top of having a population much greater than that of Killer mains. Survivors have to be kept happy. Killers just need to be playing.
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You're comparing a perk to a cheat. That's not the same thing but go off
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-"Killer is the easiest roll by a longshot."
Here's your problem: at the highest skill levels of DBD that is known to be false. This is why when we have DBD comp tournaments the survivors almost always have the limitation : no character/perk/item repeats.
If you find killer to be the easy role then you're either :
1) Playing Nurse/Blight with best addons all the time vs very good players and crushing them
2) Playing Nurse/Blight with literally whatever and crushing mid tier MMR players.
3) Playing low tier MMR players with any random killer and crushing them.
Do me a favor please. Pick your favorite/strongest killer and try to win ~50 games in a row with a 4k. The results don't matter; what matters is that getting somewhere around 50 wins should permanently place all your other killers at 1200 MMR. Now you will see the game in a completely different way.
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If you suspect a survivor having it swing at a pallet after they dropped it, auto dead hard can't see there is a pallet between you and the survivor so they will DH for no reason which is a pretty sure way of knowing as no one would willingly DH in that situation.
Another way to see if it's in play is listening to the cries of the survivor, if they play their going down sound then there is a chance it's in play. But that's not a guarantie as they could have just timed it well.
While it isn't exactly rare it isn't as common anymore, BHVR did do a sweep of it it seems
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us triangles are just good at the game
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It is possible to bait out, but it is also a mind game between the 2 players, assuming the auto-cheat isn't in place. I'll twitch my killer or nod quickly which can catch out some. I've been outplayed and succeeded in landing a hit against the same player using DH in the exact same match on several occasions, so it's definitely involving some element of mind-game from both sides.
The point is the perk will not protect the survivor some of the time and will other times. A perk isn't supposed to be fool-proof, but neither is it supposed to be useless. It was nerfed of its dash, which is what most people complained about it for originally. It's weaker than what it was but still useful when either winning a mind-game or simply dealing with some killers who are just hitting without thinking.
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No need *cracks knuckles* I'm ready
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The title of my post says it all. People apparently can't counterplay it. In my surv experience i succeed in maybe 30-40% of my dead hards. Usually if I hit a killer with it once, I'll get it again multiple times in the same game. Other games I'll try to use it 3/4 times, maybe nail one but mainly get downed because killer could successfully bait it.
If I hit it I get good value which sometimes leads to a win. It is a GOOD perk, that a lot of players use successfully. But It's not the broken auto win perk that most killwr mains claim it is.
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really wish we could have serious discussion about dead hard instead of these bad faith threads that use Anecdotal evidence as objective points. No i personally dont have a problem with the perk, i barely struggle against it, and i dont use it often. However yes it can put killers in a lose lose situation but its not as bad as before. Also i disagree with the mention of auto dead hard because thats just straight up cheating.
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preach brother
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If I say I never have any problems with DH, does that make me sound like a super skilled killer player?
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The ranged attacks are precisely the type of attacks that dh should work against. They cut chases very short, so a perk to counter them is a fair thing. Still requires good timing. And the counter play is to use the ranged attacks as an opener instead of a finisher.
As for the 6+seconds? I'd need to time it but the difference between a long range lunge and a point blank hit doesn't feel that large to me. Unless you're running a dh script it's impossible to reflexively block a basic (non lunge) attack with dh without guessing when killer will swing.
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Im remarkably bad with nurse and blight. I main demo and ghostie closely followed by. clown, spirit and maybe legion. When I play these killers and try, I can generally secure 3/4ks very consistently. I rarely have bad games with them, they happen but not very often. Using my sweaty demo Iri build i haven't seen a 2k or less game in months.
I'll have bad games usually when I'm using a killer I'm not good with if I'm doing a specific challenge or daily ritual. Or when I'm playing my deathslinger hex meme build. Obvs I'll have a bad game when I'm trying every so often, but not often enough to give me any grief or frustration. My mmr has been frequently been putting me with my 600 hours experience against survs with 1,800 hours right up to 6-7k hour players. Co ordinated swfs and (attempted) bully squads. My mmr certainly doesn't feel low, and the games are challenging, I have to work to win them.
My average killer session will be 7-8 games. Usually I get 3ks (tend to let last one go unless they were toxic to me), if my daily ritual is bad I may have a game or two of 1/2ks at the start. Out of the 6-7 games I play properly I'll maybe get the odd 1 or 2k if I get outplayed. And it's been like that for a few months. You play killer right and you dominate the game.
My surv record is much worse. Well over half of my surv games end up being hatch games.
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Dead Hard has counterplay. The counterplay is just unenjoyable, and the perk's mere existence -- whether it's being used or not -- drags down the killer experience on a wide scale few other perks reach, for a lot of reasons that have already been stated.
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Sometimes it also wins game if you don't have it but killer wastes time baiting out and you manage to spin and extend chase. So I think survivor having dh should be shown to killer.
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They cut chases very short, so a perk to counter them is a fair thing.
Killers with strong chase are balanced around that strong chase. DH nerfs this and makes these killers weak compared to where they are suppose to be. It actually isn't fair and I'm guessing it's one of the reasons why DH was already confirmed to be getting changes.
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There are scenarios where dh is unavoidable.
When your running around a pallet and the survivor is within swing distance. If you swing, the surv has enough distance between from you to be able to dh from reaction. So if you swing you eat a dh. If you dont swing then they will make the pallet and still have dh.
Sometimes when you come around a corner and a surv is there people will instinctively swing. This is just human nature and so will happen sometimes.
At a dropped unsafe pallet given the loop is big enough. If you swing to one side you eat a dh and if you dont swing because you know they have dh the have enough time to vault off reaction. This one is avoidable but will waste time and sometimes will get you
Some killer powers are rendered useless because of dh. Wesker dash can be dead harded with reaction time unless hes right up next to you and so can demos shred. There are many other killers that suffer from this
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Here's your problem: at the highest skill levels of DBD that is known to be false.
"Known to be false" ? That's the stats literally published by BHVR. Average 60% killrate, including at high MMR.
This is why when we have DBD comp tournaments the survivors almost always have the limitation : no character/perk/item repeats.
Both roles have restrictions in tournament, not just survivors. Killer players have perk/addon restrictions in tournaments. They are forced to pick their killer in a pool of 3-4 predefined ones which means they must know how to play every killer well. Killers are also forced to play with low ping which gives survivors a massive advantage compared to regular queue. Also it doesn't matter really what restrictions you use since tournament killrates are typically higher than 50%...
Do me a favor please. Pick your favorite/strongest killer and try to win ~50 games in a row with a 4k. The results don't matter; what matters is that getting somewhere around 50 wins should permanently place all your other killers at 1200 MMR. Now you will see the game in a completely different way.
I've done this, and after 300 matches - 90% of which were 3K+ and including a 36 winstreak - I still have the same stance as OP.
There are some tough games sometimes, sure, but these are only against coordinated SWFs with 1000+ hours, and that's pretty rare, maybe 1 game out of 10. For the rest of the matches, the matchmaking barely gives me any better players than it did at the beginning. Half of the players who can't last 10 sec in chase and insta-DC on hook, the other half are good players but solo queue and they lose because their teammates were in the 1st half...
I feel like killer players have very bad memory and only remember the bad games, even though they 4K in most games without realizing it.
And before you say "Nurse" I played Clown, Trapper and Myers. FYI, most killer streamers have got 50-winstreaks or higher if you ask them. Otzdarva did it with every killer including addonless trapper... As for myself, I'm pretty sure I can record a 10 winstreak in just one night, if you don't believe it.
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the thing is survivors have figured out how to make new dh better then old dh in certain situations. old dh you would get to a spot then dh to pallet and window and the killer couldn't do anything about it it was a free pallet drop or vault. now dh is used in the same situation but closer and now if you try to make the hit at a pallet the survivor doesn't drop it but speeds off to a new loop. we're are back to dh been a lose lose situation where there is no counter play to it, if you wait it out the survivor gets the pallet and off to the next loop if you swing then they save the pallet and they are off to the next loop.
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Here's a few.
If they drop a pallet and they are on the opposite side of you, lunge. You'll hit the pallet, but the auto DH script will force them to use DH.
Miss an M1 on purpose when it's obvious that you will miss (e.g. a human would recognize the attack will miss, and then not use DH). Swinging at a survivor taking a protection hit instead of the scripter, or swinging then turning away, or lunging and then stopping it short, or any other kind of purposeful miss.
Missing on purpose works for legit players as well, but they'll be able to make a read on it the next time you try it. A scripter will be forced to DH every time, so don't make hackusations when using this technique unless you see a player do a frame perfect Dead Hard and also the miss bait works every time you see that player.
Alternatively, play Legion or Deathslinger. Survivors can't get value from Dead Hard if they are Deep Wounded, cheater or not. Pinhead also counters DH, since you can't use it while chained and he has an add-on that Deep Wounds injured survivors (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). You can also just use any exhaustion add-on on killers that have them.
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Of course you have never played against a 4 man SWF that use dead hard the most efficient way possible. Probably never had a real loop in his life LMAO!!
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I would argue that survivors need better alternatives - there are no contenders. Every other exhaustion perk needs a build around it to use (Head on), or a window to proc or is just generally too situational. Sprint burst is the most viable alternative but not being able to use it when you choose makes it less of a contender as it's not available when you need it most unless you learn to 99 it and that is a pain to learn and think about for most* players.
In regards to nurse and blight - you're absolutely right. I think your point highlights exactly why nurse should be totally reworked and blight needs a few addons changed - THEN we can buff all killers without the game breaking.
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Tell me you didn't read the posts without saying you didn't read the posts.
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Pallets I agree with. But that's kinda niche. Vaults I've been dropping a lot of survs on vaults recently, and dh plays on vaults are risky as all hell, you have to predict the swing flawlessly, because vaults take so long and it's so easy to hit a surv on or through a vault, if you wiff the dh you are going down.
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Then swing into it, if surv has you in that position then take the option thatvhelps you the most. if the surv drops pallet after then it's basically like a predrop, they waste the dh speed boost during the animation and they have a deep wound. Survs can force it at a pallet but it requires damn good play. And people should be rewarded for good play.
I'm not saying survs never hit DH. Because they do, or no one would complain about it, it'd be another dead perk for survivors.
My issue is people calling for it to be removed/nerfed into oblivion. Because game balance simply doesn't need that. Killers already have a 60% kill rate with DH seeing such wide usage. It's counterable, requires skill to use and doesn't affect games as much as many killer mains claim. It's a good perk for sure. But not a broken one. And a lot of killer mains want to turn it into another useless perk that doesn't get used because it doesn't benefit survs. There are already enough perks like that.
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