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What if we don't punish killers for playing?
What if we don't punish killers for playing?
What if, instead of constant nerfs and reductions in tactics, we start rewarding killers?
for example, do not punish the camp (which will absolutely be used by the survivors to attack)
go from the opposite
for example, if the killer is not within a radius 16 meters of hook, then the survivor dies faster
and suddenly the killer gets more pressure from the hook and at the same time gets an incentive not to camp
Try to give a gingerbread instead of a whip
Comments
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Ok so basically, you want even more genrush then.
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for example, if the killer is not within a radius 16 meters of hook, then the survivor dies faster
so it’s okay to punish survivors for -let me check- nothing in their control instead of making a boring playstyle for everyone in the match - killer included - less rewarding?
really, facecamping doesn’t need to be defended this much. In EGC collapse it still works the same and otherwise it needs adjustment. Also we haven’t even seen the actual implementation which comes on a PTB to test and where we can give actual feedback.
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If you're facecamping then you're not really playing, though, are you?
You're just standing there, ruining the game for everyone.
Also, you just described Monstrous Shrine, which nobody uses because it still sucks.
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Man, all the face-camping Bubbas are coming out in droves to make sure the devs don't ruin their "fun"
If you don't like being punished for doing nothing but staring at the survivor you managed to hook and that's your only idea of fun... Go play Civilization.
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Survivor problems will be solved when killers are buffed sufficiently. Then they won't be crushed by SWF. Perhaps when we reach that point we can start to address survivors not playing in the SWF, until then we they'll have to take the shaft for the greater good.
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Nope ✨
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If the system works to tackle solely facecamping, then you can still proxy camp with killers like Huntress. You should still be able to go in to force the next hook state since it's a build up. You can still defend a hook against survivors rushing to unhook. Basement is still deadly due to the 1 way out and you can still watch the single entrance.
The only thing, assuming it the values are right, is that you can't just down a survivor, put them on a hook, and stand in front of them until they die unless the gens are all done. Which is fine, because even as someone who plays killer, there's little value in facecamping and having it being practically removed from the game is fine.
Of course this all depends on the exact numbers as it's possible the system is too weak or too strong against normal gameplay.
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if the anty camp update comes out in the form that the developers announced, then it will simply be the creation of dead zones for the killer, for example,if the anty camp zone is 16 meters, for the gideon it will be 32 meters of the zone into which the killer should not enter
in this position, the killer is punished for what he did hook
or if the killer made a hook on the second floor of the garden, since the progress does not stop, only slows down 1 survivor can run in the main building and the survivor will escape
thus weak m1 killers will lose the already weak pressure
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I rarely camp myself but i am a bit concern about this new mechanic. If u get two different survivors on hooks close by each other there is absolutely no reason to leave it. Hopefully the ptb down the line go good. I'm glad for solo q players overall tho. No more camping and dc's threads hopefully
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Ironically speaking, bubba will still be the best face camper, since he can eat through basekit bt and again with one chainsaw, guaranteeing the down
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I guess... it kinda matters when we are getting this update... did they say if and when we are getting this
If it's soon then players should start finding ways to not facecamp... but that's just me
If it's not soon then players will eventually start finding ways to not facecamp... again that's just me
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Then ask for buffs for these weak m1 killers and not killers generally.
Pretty sure they said this summer or end of it? So definitely not very next chapter PTB and didn’t feel like next midchapter either
edit: actually they said later this year, not late summer
Post edited by Mooks on3 -
Both are necessary. Killers need an incentive not to camp while also getting some punishment to excessive camping.
One thing I see as problematic though is, that the more you punish killers for camping, tunneling and slugging, the more handholding you add for survivors. To the point where a killer cannot punish survivor mistakes outside of loops.
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First of all, punishing face camping isn't punishing killers for playing bc face camping is hardly "playing." Second, they literally said if a survivor is nearby then it will make the bar fill up slower. If you want an incentive not to camp, why is camping being punished such a problem for you? Almost like you actually want to keep camping...
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Right. The main time face camping remains viable is the one time everyone agrees it's acceptable
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monstrous shrine is a perk. it increases the speed that survivor die at by 20%(120%). anti-face camping changes are somewhat necessary. Its kinda been problem in the game for long time that has went unaddressed.
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Thanks @Mooks
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Killers are not allowed to have any agency or strategy beyond what survivors and BHVR allow them. Killers must be played like very simple bots or else they’ll be heavily penalized.
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This change doesn't feel like it's meant as a punishment, moreover it's a response to a very unenjoyable and problematic mechanic in-game.
It's also self-inflicted because it was clearly common enough to cause such issues and the idea of "Your fun is not my concern" has clearly proven that it is everyone's concern, otherwise things get removed.
Anyway, the change won't stop proxy camping and instances where camping is either all there is or unavoidable (EGC and survivors swarming the hook) have been taken into account. This is a fair change.
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I don't think it can get any worse
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They actually said later this year not late summer according to GBKs thread, guess I mixed something up
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Sounds like a big incentive to tunnel when all you have to be is a few meters away and now survivors are forced to go for hook saves faster. The simple truth is camping has been a long time problem in this game and now finally something is being done about it. Killers aren't "playing" when they face camp. They're actually refusing to play until the camped survivor is out of the match. That is why they should be punished by giving the camped survivor a means to escape the situation by theirself.
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It's fine... At least I have a time frame in mind
Don't worry I don't Camp so it's not going to bother me in the slightest
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It can, when you see 4 random survivors (not SWF) run genrush perks. Atm, the only one I see is Prove Thyself and usually only one at most two bring it.
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Ironically I'm excited for this update so I can face camp as Bubba without feeling bad. I want to stare into the survivors eyes until they unhook themselves. Then just let them go. I don't know why but it seems like it would be fun for a laugh.
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Many did not understand what this topic was
The problem is that depending on the radius of the anty-camp zone, this can oppress non-camping killers and at the same time will not stop the basement bubba
and option 2 if the zone is small, then the killers will continue to camp
The “Take and give nothing” approach is already incredibly bad, but combined with implementation, it becomes either depressing or useless.
now if you play "Fair" then you literally get nothing so why not start encouraging "fair" players
instead of just limiting
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They already tried giving out carrots, by buffing chase universally for killers, giving a dozen or so new information perks, buffing a ton of underused perks, adding time to gens, and continuing to nerf every useful survivor perk after that.
Killers then spent 10 months kicking gens and using all of those buffs to camp and tunnel as hard as possible.
We already know the result of buffing killers or nerfing survivors: it's 'thanks for the patch, now tunneling is easier'. If the devs actually want to change the current 'camp and tunnel' meta, they can not simply buff killers and hope the community will change on their own. We tried that, it doesn't work.
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Last time they tried to give killers the carrot instead of the stick, the killers just started camping and tunnelling more, immediately forgot about the carrot, and just generally started whinging even more. I know it's a popular forum meme for some folks that 'tunnelling and camping will totally go away if you just buff killers out the wazoo' but it's not meant to be taken seriously.
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We literally just had Eruption, Overcharge, CoB and PR as a meta.
Killers still camped. Killers still tunneled.
The carrot approach just doesn't work.
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Its simple, a rate 5 killer get buffed to win against rate 6 teams, then start to struggle against rate 7 teams. You know what happened next.
"See? survivors is adapted and do just fine. The buff on killer isnt enough"
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You can still proxy camp, which is usually more efficient anyway. You can also still facecamp at endgame and you can still defend the hook when there's other survivors going for the save.
I really don't see what the issue is.
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survivors also received bonuses
+ Survivors have hyperfocus, so surv can solo repair generators in 45 seconds.
+ Survivors can already increase hook time by +120 seconds with Reassurance and Kinship.
so to say that killers got buffs and just continuing camping would be a lie
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And once again you punish without encouraging alternatives
at the same time, the anty-camp system will also punish people who do not camp
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A killer that is 16 yards away from a hooked survivor isn't facecamping them. This isn't a definition of facecamping that I've ever seen anyone use before. If BHVR wants to make an anti facecamping mechanic, it should be limited to facecamping range.
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Pretty sure greater good = majority, so why would it be killers against swf ? There's more solo survivors than there are swf, so shouldn't killers take the shaft against swf instead? Or maybe the more sensible choice is to bring solo q & swf closer before doing any major changes that would make things much worse either for solos or killers against swf.
Also killers who facecamp contribute to inflating the kill rates without actually playing. If this isn't made viable anymore then kill rates will be more realistic. Finally, last time BHVR helped out killers by nerfing gen speed & shifting the meta to encourage them to equip something other than slowdown, what did they do? They just stacked more slow down and started worshipping their 3gens. Unfortunately, killers who facecamp would still facecamp even if they were rewarded for not doing it.
As long as the feature isn't abusable by survivors, there's no reason it wouldn't be a good one.
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If I'm not wrong, Reassurance also has a 16 radius and you cannot Reassure from above. If camping won't be possible for weaker killer, what stops them from running Iron Grasp and taking their victims to basement. They can camp shack. Even if you don't have the perk and you hook them in basement you can still camp it no?
How can it oppress non-camping killers, since they don't camp? Players just want to win, the game cannot force you to 12 hook survivors. I have many games where the killer just ignores the guy with no hook states and just gets him in end game and hooks them last (so as to instantly kill them), basically skipping 3 hooks to get to 4k. This is already a strategy. The game would have to change significantly to force killers to go for 12 hooks.
There's a reason camping and tunneling happen, it's because people know how strong those strategies are and that can be medium risk high reward. It's also why so many killers complain about gen rushing survivors, because that's the most efficient strategy to win the game. The guy who will loop the killer for 5 mins usually doesn't even make it out alive, the ones who have a higher chance of escaping are the people who stayed at gens. Doing gens is much easier than learning how to loop EVERY killer and being decent at it. Of course many survivors would rather do that even if it is more boring. There are also plenty of killers complaining about looping and whatever makes chasing a survivor last longer. That's why we saw every killer and their mother (even Blight and Nurse who probably didn't even need it to begin with) run 2+ gen regression. Because even if it was a ######### boring playstyle, it was pretty consistent in giving them 2 kills and definitely more. Or doing the whole 3gen strat.
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My post was sarcastic. I play solo survivor, I know we're the majority despite being last on the totem pole. It's simply that many killers would rather not address this if it can be avoided. Some won't even entertain solo survivors buffs, because they'd rather see SWF being brought closer to solo survivor than the other way around.
If you know the problem with the toothpaste, you will understand why killers will never camp and tunnel less unless the game changes dramatically to force a different gameplay style. Basically the toothepaste theory says, if you squeeze out all the toothpaste how can you put it back in from the way it came from? You really can't. Same with camping and tunneling. The problem isn't the killers specifically, is that those strategies are too good. And that killers have wised up. Maybe those strategies have always been extremely good, but killers hadn't discovered that. After 6-7 years of DBD some parts of it have been optimized, so those strategies are at the forefront atm. You cannot turn back time and make killers unaware of the strength of camping and tunneling. That information is accessible from every killer main with a small following on Twitch or Youtube and as the game doesn't have a good tutorial, people will look for outside sources.
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How can it oppress non-camping killers, since they don't camp?
gideon, you hung a survivor over the basement, as a result, now you have a 32-meter dead zone in which you will be punished, and since 6+ divine pallets may appear there, the survivors will run there, and due to the fact that the timer does not stop, the survivor will run away off the hook
so some ghoustface will lose pressure simply because he went after another survivor who was on another floor
or for example the killer will have to make a big detour around the hook and lose time, this will severely punish weak m1 killers and be completely ignored by the nurse and blight
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My topic is about this
make "fair" play more profitable than camping and then camping will be much less
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Every patch since the dredge has included an information perk, a chase perk, and/or a utility perk. It's like BHVR keeps throwing out options because maybe killers can't locate survivors, maybe they can give options to reduce chase times, maybe they can give new ways for all of these 'high mmr' killers to express their 'god tier' skill to the world.
This solution only even works if the killer is within 15m of the hook. Last I checked, the biggest complaint was that 'maps are too big', so there's absolutely playable area that isn't near the hooked survivor. Shockingly, the gens being completed by survivors are somewhere else, maybe try interrupting them instead of expecting them to be afk.
I'm not sure what else BHVR can do here, since they've given killers buffs, new tools/perks, and somehow these are all being used to camp/tunnel harder. Even the (fairly clear) message of 'stop just kicking gens for an hour and chase survivors' was met with 'guess I'll just stop kicking gens and ignore half the survivor team to focus this one guy out'.
Would you like an engraved invitation to leave the hook?
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That's one map though. The other one might be Midwich Elementary. I'm not 100% sure though, you could try Reassurance as a stand in. It also has a 16 meter radius I believe and many times you've gotta get extremely close for it to be activateable.
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Oh I absolutely agree with all that sorry I didn't catch the sarcasm haha. I don't think there's any way to stop tunnelling bc it's hard to imagine a better strategy than turning a 4v1 into a 3v1 as quickly as possible. Honestly it's the same thing for suvivors, BHVR made changes to encourage altruism and now we have swf with 8 seconds heal. People will always make the most of what they have as long as it works. Having an important advantage in some way (facecamping someone to death, having a full gen speed / regression build...) rather than spreading your build in multiple aspects has always paid off so far, so I don't mind BHVR trying the stick considering the carrot has proven to be quite ineffective.
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"give and take nothing" approach is basically as bad as the "take and give nothing" approach
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I love how most takes on this forum are either very survivor sided or killer sided.
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I'm sorry, maybe missed something?
Who punish killers for playing?
I see devs finally start to punish killers for NOT playing and not letting others play.
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Survivors, my dear. Give them an opportunity to and they will rush the hook the moment their fellow mate is hooked without a care in the world and accuse you of camping.
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Something something winstreaks.
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Wow, it's so OP how Hyperfocus gives a completely unconditional +100% repair speed for just a single perk slot and nothing else, that's incredible!
Wait, why's Flip-flop beating it for a pickrate according to Nightlight?
And wow, we can invest a ton of time to keep a survivor on hook and useless for longer, what a buff. That really compares to the... Was it six? compounding buffs that trigger frequently in every single match?
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Yeah, no, I do not believe the carrot beats the stick in this situation. Camping is strong AND easy. The latter is extremely important. Your suggestion makes killers have to engage and express skill, which people who rely on camping sorely lack. Even if it's less powerful than spreading pressure, camping has its guarantees and requires no effort which is why it's so popular. Your proposal doesn't change that whatsoever.
No amount of incentive will stop people from cheesing games barring instantly winning or some obscenely strong boon that plays the game for them.
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I hope they reconsider the range. 16 meters is a long way away and is absolutely not facecamping. Facecamping is being within range to grab somebody if they go for a save. I’m willing to see how this plays out, but I worry that it’s penalizing a very legitimate and sometimes required way for killers to play.
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