For/Against Removing The DC Penalties When DC Bots Get Introduced?
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I was around way before DC penalties. I mained old Freddy back then and had a DC almost every game. DC penalty was one of the greatest updates they added and bots are also one of the greatest to me.
People need to stop looking at old DBD with rose-tinted glasses. It was a ######### show of mass DCs, terrible balance, awful map and perk design, and even worse matchmaking. The only reason old DBD felt “fun” was because everyone was SO bad at the game that stuff like double pallets + vacuum wasn’t that big of a deal.
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Any argument made for DC penalties being removed due to Bots is a reason made to keep them.
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No it won't. I want to play with people, not bots.
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Keep them. No penalties would allow survivors to game shop, and since I also support hiding prestige, profiles, etc, in lobby to help curb lobby dodging, it'd be hypocritical of me to support getting rid of DC penalties.
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You still lose all BPs when leaving, and then you have to sit 5 min again in queue. That alone is already a big penalty, and normally enough to have the vast majority of people not DC, at least that's what we see in most other multiplayer games. The fact DBD has such a massive problem with DCs is not a problem of the penalty being too low/too harsh, but the consequence of poor game design. DC penalties can already be circumvented by suiciding on hook anyway.
And yes I'm all for killers DC'ing for free, if someone is having such a bad game that they're even willing to sacrifice all BPs to get out of the match, then they should leave ASAP. The goal of a game is to have all players enjoy it together, not to have someone get humiliated. I think that if killers DC'd more often it would naturally solve a lot of problems with bully SWFs etc.
The advantages/drawbacks are known already. We just can't know if the cons will outweigh the pros, and I doubt anyone can tell without experimenting it. But there have already been periods of times without DC penalties, and the quality of matches felt better to me, yes you'd be in 3v1 more often because someone tantrum'd. And queues were longer for survivor. But the actual survivor gameplay felt good because killers were no longer camping/tunneling every game.
It's true that knight mains or people who have 90 pages of -reps would no longer be able to play with human players, which would make this forum very sad. But is it really a problem?
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Ok, so i want you to go back and read my post, and explain to me where you could possible read anything i wrote there as "it is your fault if the killer wants to hard tunnel you"
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I misread the last part, my apologies for the mistake.
Sometimes when reading, and even writing, my brain just autocorrects certain words into other words. English is something I have struggled with for a long time as a result, it's why I am typically horrible at articulating my thoughts.
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Bots change nothing. The DC penalty should still exist. There is no excuse for that unsportsmanlike behavior. If anything, the penalty should be higher. I've always felt that way.
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Well, as a survivor, if you consider a killer DC to be a "penalty" (I didn't want 7000 BP for doing nothing.) then that's where we disagree. I respect your opinion. Honestly, I can see both sides of the Disconnect Debate, and I'm not sure where I land yet.
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There's DCing left and right already, it can't get any worse removing the penalty. I feel like either the kill rates are going to shoot up from farming bots or it's going to decrease because killers are going to get bored facing bots. Either way, double edged sword.
People are still going to DC when bots come in, so what's the point? As if they don't DC already. Making the punishment harsher will only hurt the population and disincentivize people wanting to play.
It only makes sense to remove the penalty.
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As someone who has seen times when the dc penalty was removed... Yes, it can get much, much worse.
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Making the punishment harder may get people, that can't bear the consequences of their misplays out of DbD, yes. Is that really a loss for the game and for all the others, that are willing to play full matches? I don't think so.
I consider DbD overall a "soft" PvP Game. The consequences of losing a game are minor, apart from some time to queue up and maybe an item you lose nothing. If a players mindset isn't able to cope with that, maybe PvP Games aren't their cup of tea in general.
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I'm usually on the keep-penalty side, but just came out of a very unpleasent wesker round, with all the gen slowdown and still tunneling hardcore at 4-5 gens, bc obviously the game is not winnable when you play with a strong killer and full slowdown, unless you tunnel one player out.
So I'm all-in for a free dc's, but ONLY for the playera after the first DC. So the first one dc'ing will get a penalty, but not the others. And another thing: Killers have to play out the match even against 4 bots! So if you want to hardcore tunnel, go on, but don't complain if you end up in a full bot match! They would still get their BP and stuff, but when they really want to play in a very unfun manner, which drives away their survivor players, they have to deal with (unfun) bots.
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Instead of removing the penalty because there's a lot of disconnects already and it supposedly can't get worse (it can, it would) we should increase the penalty.
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And bots don't change a thing. They're not a replacement for an actual player. They just lessen the blow of losing a team mate early in the game.
No survivor wants to die while a bot gets to escape, and no killer wants to play against a team full of bots.
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To add to this:
- the first Survivor to disconnect has a normal game. No excuse for a disconnect
- the remaining Survivors now have a bot on their team, which is a situation that sucks, but it sucks less than the old bot-less system where your team goes -1. Because the situation sucks less than in the old system they have less of a reason to disconnect, but them disconnecting makes the game worse for the remaining players still.
Less of a reason to disconnect + it makes the game worse for remaining players + you do it anyway = you absolutely deserve a disconnect ban.
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Stay and be increased. The base penalty needs to be 10 minutes. Its so simple, if you are dcing because you need to be somewhere then it'll be over by the time you are back. And if you are just a ragequitting child then you dont get to play the game for 10 minutes.
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in that case, they can just run at the killer, start a chase and probably die soon anyway. Players who don't want to play WILL find ways to throw and avoid any potential systems meant to detect and punish that. That's why I think just letting them dc is the lesser evil because at least a bot that actually wants to play the game will replace them.
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If anything the penalty should only start when the DCd player is back in his/her lobby, not before. Many ppl use the time to spectate (this is mostly important for 5 and 15 minutes penalties), esp. with the introducing of bots - you really need to be carefull with that!
The penalty times in general are fine, this would be just a little tweak.
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Step 2, make it so anyone can DC without penalty and be repaced with a brainless AI. At what point will people that want a PvP stop playing because most of their games turn into PvE?
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If I want to stop playing and killer won't hook me I'll just go afk.
Either make penalties worse for a while or make them less for a while.
But if you dc and see your bot win a game u raged on that would teach u to grow up.
Same goes for killer, play like a tool play with tools. See how fun that is.
But I think penalties are fine as is.
Matchmaking should be fixed tho.
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Arguments For PC Penalties Being Removed:
Me and my feelings.
If I'm not going to win, why should I continue playing?
I will just die on hook because why should I be the first on down with 5 gens? At least with bots you'll get a teammate that will struggle for you. That way I can go onto the next match and most likely DC on.
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DC penalty needs to be made harsher, and BHVR needs to introduce the ability to rejoin an active game.
To my knowledge, BHVR doesn’t ban players for disconnecting, because there is little-to-no actionable evidence supporting the motive of rage quitting.
If players circumvent long DC penalties by AFKing and throwing themself at the killer, they will eventually be documented and banned.
For the longevity of the game, players who are not committed to seeing every game through—barring an IRL emergency—should be given no incentive to stick around.
The “disconnecting because things aren’t going my way” culture that has developed here is a scourge that that is quietly killing the game.
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Half of the arguments here are so lacking empathy that all I can hear is the Bubba streamer I played against who bled me out after two of my teammates DC'd and I tried to let go on hook, then got unhooked, and then got hump teched for 4 minutes. Avter the match he was speaking all kinds of things about how Survivors should be banned for 2 months for trying to get out of a game, how dare they not want to play with him and the classic "your fun isn't my responsibility"
Yeah buddy, the "babyrage Survivor dc counter" you have on your stream tipped me off to what kind of player I'm dealing with.
That's all I can think about looking at some of the replies here.
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And how will a system be able to document and differentiate between "throwing yourself at the killer" and being hard tunneled from the start? The only way this would work is if someone manually reviewed all those matches and that's just not going to happen.
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That's why I stay on my break I rarely play this game anymore.
Why play with childish butt-heads?
The excuse for this behavior is role playing.
That's what this whole game is anymore take out your anger, frustration you're bad day or whatever BS is going on, on other players.
And those players have to accept or play something else.
I understand this game is fun at times, but to get to those fun matches you have to go against others that are just out for (revenge). They take it out on the innocent players that are just trying to have a good time.
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Empathy doesn’t solve the chronic DC problem that plagues this game.
That Bubba was wrong to do what he did, but his behavior doesn’t excuse the fact that the absence of regulation creates chaos.
The system doesn’t flag that behavior—other players do.
There is no “evidence” to submit when a player disconnects. No proof that they left out of malice.
Whereas AFKing and throwing can be documented by other players and submitted to BHVR for review.
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Additionally, what will the impact be on MMR.
If any survivor can freely DC right before they die, and let their bot take the fall, then they can accrue only positive MMR.
This alone would appear to dispel any 'debate' around the subject.
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And if their MMR goes down when they disconnect they an abuse it freely to get easy wins against low MMR Killer players. Just another reason why the penalty must stay.
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Empathy starts conversations.
Demonizing the other side does nothing except divide people further. Trying to understand goes a long way.
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I'm against the removal of DC penalties. I think the penalty should be harsher for people who DC more than 3 times within a 4 hour period.
DC Penalties discourages people from just abusing the MMR system to tank their rating and get easy matches. Similarly, I don't want the majority of my matches to be with bots.
I don't play killer very often, but when I do, I end up downing the overconfident player fairly quickly which results in them d/cing because they didn't get the perfect start they expected. It just isn't fair to the rest of the team when this happens.
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Why do people DC in the first place again?
How about address the issue first?
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You're not wrong there.
We could do with a whole lot less demonizing.
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Bots are better than nothing. I have seen so many people die on hook to get out of a game and if they get saved will throw every pallet. I would rather they just DC. I'm not even talking about me being able to DC, just people who do ######### like that. I don't think it will be nothing but bot games every match, but no one truly fully knows if that would be the case or not. They can assume it will be, but no one really knows unless it gets tested.
That's why I think they should do a trial of it where they get rid of the DC penalty for a week or maybe two just to see if people notice games are better and they don't see an uptick in people dying on hook. Because what I know right now is we do currently have a DC and dying on hook problem. People have been complaining about that for the past year or so and I think something should be done and I think we should at the very least try it instead of being so sure we know what the outcome will be.
I mean another alternative could be a player's ban is based on how long their bot is in a game. Everyone is assigned a bot number and if your bot is still in a game, then you can't ready up until that bot is dead or escaped.
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Can I ask how you believe the removal of the DC penalty would improve the current situation?
I understand your position of "lets try it and see what happens," but as @Trollinmon pointed out, we've already been down that path and the disconnects spike every single time.
There is zero love lost between players in this game, which is why no one feels obligated to see their game through. So I am very curious to know how enabling "my fun isn't your responsibility" could at all be beneficial.
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Not the guy you replied to, heads up.
For one, if DC penalties are gone people will be replaced by a bot. Right now, more people will kill themselves on hook because that means there won't be a penalty for them. If that's removed, they'll AFK. If that's bannable, they'll throw. You get the picture there. With the Bot DC system, you want people to DC because that means it'll spawn a bot. If they don't DC, no bot.
Secondly, most players never experienced DBD without a penalty, so there's a novelty factor in play. It's a shiny new toy for them to play with, but that will fade over time.
Lastly, I think it'll help burn-out. Survivor teammates are happier because they have a chance to play, Killer is happy because they have some sort of a challenge and can still get points/achievements and the DC'd player is happy because they got out of an unfun match, meaning they'll be less likely to DC in the future after being forced to endure horrid match after horrid match.
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Increase the penalty so it takes even longer for you to find lobbies because of how little people are playing. Got it.
Pulsar explained it perfectly. I'm against bots coming to pubs to begin with, but that really defeats the purpose of keeping the DC penalty.
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These are all nice ideas. But it doesn't account for the fact that without a penalty, survivors tend to DC the moment they're inconvenienced or begin to lose, or simply encounter a killer they don't like. This will royally screw up MMR, as survivors can DC the moment they're sure to die, or even when they suspect they won't escape, and they will avoid all negative MMR, catapulting survivors up past the soft cap in no time and voiding the entire system. That's simply never going to be allowed to happen.
I think there's other ways around it. Instead of having an escalating DC penalty, you instead have a consecutive DC penalty. As in, if you DC twice in a row, you get a penalty, but if you break up your DCs with full games, you don't. Or you simply allow a couple extra 'free' DCs per day, so instead of starting at 1m and then 5m (essentially 2 free DCs a day), you make the first one free and give players 3 free DCs per day. If you're DCing more than that, you really shouldn't be playing at all.
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that's one way to do it
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We don't know what players tend to do when the penalty being removed isn't new.
There is no winning with the MMR system. If you don't lose MMR, you encounter the problem you mentioned. If you do lose MMR, you get people purposefully dropping mmr.
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You know what I find it very interesting that this whole argument is from the point of view of survivors DCing and I haven't seen many ppl bring up killer DCs. If you remove DC penalties that means you also remove it for killer and right now killers don't have bots, so that means when a killer dc for whatever reason the match will just end. Killers are just as likely to dc for any reason just like survivors. As a killer main who wants the penalties to stay, I will say this, if penalties did go away I will 100% will DC if I see a map offering. Survivors this also means the chances of you completing challenges for the rift go down if killers start DCing a lot since as I said matches will just end and you won't get the chance to do a totem, touch a gypht, and etc. I think what will happen if DC penalties went away is killers will have more pve matches than pvp matches(esp the killers who ppl hate to go against like wesker, sm, knight, blight, and nurse) and survivors (esp swfs) won't ever see the end of a match since killers will most likely dc if they lose to many gens in one chase, see a map offering used, get blinded as they pick up a survivor and ect.
In my opinion, DC penalties are a necessary evil since they are punishments for those who broke the commitment they agree to when they queue up. I don't know many multiplayer games that don't have some kind of penalty when leaving a match/duty early. I give two examples of games I play a lot other than DBD, Overwatch QP gives you a 75% exp reduction for x number of games for the battle pass and ff14 locks you out of queueing for all duties for 30mins if you leave a dun/raid early 3 times in a day. Btw both of these games have a backfill system to replace ppl who leave, something dbd doesn't have.
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I think you bring up some good points, and it sounds to me like we have two different schools of thought.
You) Accept rage-quitting for the inevitability that it is, and lean into it with a system that neither punishes nor rewards. A.K.A AI backfilling is the future of gaming
Me) Reject rage-quitting, despite its inevitability, and enforce a system that values quality over quantity. A.K.A Make A Gamer Selfless Again
Apologies if that feels like I’m putting words in your mouth
I do foresee the alleviated burn-out. DBD struggles with the vicious cycle of “hate begets hate,” and bots present an opportunity to salvage a previously soured experience.
It is such a question mark right now, though. When people play PvP games, they like to know that they are playing against real people.
It is difficult to predict how the community will react—and it may even take several months to really make waves one way or another.
Totally agree, crime does not fit the punishment. Even for repeat offenders, anything beyond 2hrs is pretty egregious
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I mean, you could solve a multitude of issues at once by removing names from the lobby and in the match. Just have it be "Steve Harrington 03" in the lobby and in-game, then reveal the true name of the player post-match. You could also remove the lobby entirely and just have people in-game have their names hidden.
That would stop people from freaking out about bot matches, I bet you won't even know 90% of the time if you aren't looking for it.
I do agree that above all else, each path forward requires time. That time is bound to be very painful in either scenario.
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How about the trial still ends when 4 survivors disconnect and the killer just gets BP? Like 15k-20k.
Killers wont be playing against 4 bots and survivor will find a new thing to hate killers for. A win-win lol.
Who knows, maybe survs just stop dcing to spitefully deny such 4bot-game-ender-compensation.
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The d/c penalties need to be removed from the game. Either that, or the reasons why survivors d/c need to be addressed. Slugging and tunneling are by far the 2 most common reasons survivors d/c. There is absolutely no reason a survivor should be forced to stay on the ground for more than 30 seconds.
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They DC because their feelings were hurt.
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This is so ridiculous, it might just work.
If anything in this game is a constant, it’s players’ desire to prevent their opponent any semblance of victory.
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The first point I can agree with. Removing DC would increase the odds that bots come into play. But I still think there should be some safe guards in place to punish escessive DC'ing. It may be ok to DC when the killer is playing super obnoxious / toxic, but some survivors will also DC for the stupidest, most miniscule reasons. That shouldn't be encouraged.
The other two points are more like wishful thinking for me. Fading over time is just one possibility, some players might also develope a bad habit of dc'ing regularly against certain killers, maps, when their team misplays etc. And if you are burnt out from the game, you should take a break and / or reassess your expectations from the game. I cannot see how DC'ing more should help you when you are fed up from the game.
Instead of this "wishfull thinking", free DC's might be able to mitigate the impact of "unfun" playstyles by the killer. E.g. when the killer hardcore tunnels at five gens, all survivors could just DC on the spot. The killer would then have to play out his unfun game against bots (or win instantly, but I would prefer the first). That MIGHT nudge them to play less unfun in the future. But comes with the collateral that some killers might be totally unplayable just bc they are deemed "unfun". Such a thing does not only suck for the killer player not getting to play a proper game with their choosen character, but also for survivors who do not mind playing against that unfun killer, but get deserted by the other survivors.
For example, Skull Merchant is hated quite universally, so I would expect many DC's in such matches. But I'm not minding her too much and wouldn't DC, but that might get me 3-bot-games whenever I face a Skully. That would spoil my fun more in the long run than my teammates playing out the game with gritted teeth.
There's no easy solution, honestly.
Btw: You points are a near replica of Scott Junds opinion in one of his last vids. Which made me think, whether you are the REAL Scott Jund, in disguise :D ?
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The general game experience would be better if stuff that was unfun was gone from the game
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the way we have it now is fine. The dc penalty needs to stay. However I do think the hook suicide needs to stay as well
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