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Hardest Killers to Master
*DISCLAIMER: If you are not willing to read my entire explanation, please do not reply in this thread as I explain what I am talking about clearly in this post and without reading it looking at this tier list will make no sense to you.
I see a lot of discussion within the community about Killer Tier lists with the focus being on their max potential and general rankings. This is often contentious and baseless as it doesn't always factor in MMR variances, nor the interactivity of killers and their addons/perks. People often overrate some killers while disregarding others.
Another point people like to discuss is the difficulty of killers, like how in the game a Legion is listed as Easy while a Spirit is Very Hard. People don't usually seem to understand what those ratings are actually saying though. In the case of Legion vs. Spirit for example, easy vs. hard has nothing to do with how difficult it is to play AGAINST said killer nor how GOOD or EFFECTIVE the killer is. Those ratings are how hard it is for a first time player to figure out how to learn how to play those killers.
That leads to a different discussion that is not one I see very often. When we factor in Killer Potential and Difficulty it brings us to a third comparison which is Mastery. I feel people also often misunderstand what it means to master a killer. Not ever killer has the same max potential, e.g. A blight will always be able to be better than a Trapper ever can be. Even an average blight will be better than a really good trapper.
However, the discussion of how difficult it is to master a killer does not weigh their potential the same as it would in normal tier lists. To master a killer simply means to learn the intricacies of that killer in order to unlock the potential they have, and how hard that is to do as well has how good is the reward for doing it, the reward being how competitive you can make said killer and how good they can be against strong swf's.
Example, it is very hard to LEARN a nurse, but highly rewarding and quite easy to begin to Master them as even a half-decent Nurse can 3 or 4k against a decent SWF. But learning a Trapper is quite easy to do, but if you want to be competitive with a Trapper, it is WAY harder to achieve than a Nurse and is not nearly as rewarding as even a really good trapper cannot compete with really good swf's.
Mind you every killer has potential that can allow them to compete, even in tournaments (and there are restrictions in place for better balancing as well.)
If you compare nurse and trapper to Wraith for example, it is equally as hard to master a Wraith, but more rewarding than Trapper as his potential is higher given his unique abilities and tricks you can pull. That being said, he still cannot compare to a Nurse.
The obvious question here is why does any of this matter? Well it matters because it would help put in perspective a players skill level and what is and isn't a proper comparison when discussing killers. To compare a blight who tunnels every game and wins 1000 games in a row in pubs, to a Trapper who wins 75% of their games without ever tunneling, slugging or camping. It would be stupid to say how much better the Blight player is, as the Trapper player is achieving something WAY more difficult to do and requires a MUCH higher level of skill.
With all this in mind I've made a tier list to help people better understand the actual inherent difficulty in trying to master the different killers. Again keep in mind, these levels are not a rating of their potential as much as they are how hard it is to make these killers competitive and how rewarding it even is to do so. Bubba is not as strong as Wesker but is arguably just as easy to learn how to utilize to their fullest potential. Not all killers on here are rated as well based on how well they actually CAN win without tunneling and such, as some like Wekser and Bubba are highly benefitted by doing so, but it certainly increases a killer's difficulty in how hard it is to achieve such results.
Comments
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Clearly, Skull Merchant should be in a tier above the rest seeing as you need an IQ of at least 300 to be able to begin to comprehend the vast complexities of such a well-designed and truly complicated character.
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I know what you are saying and I agree with your overall point, but semantically I hate it, lol. To me "master" means maximizing their potential and/or hitting their skill ceiling (in my terms, all the hardest players to master would be in your middle or easy tier).
Competing at a high level with them is a different thing altogether.
I also take some issue with your rankings under your own terms. I definitely wouldn't put Plague in the easiest tier, that's for sure. Plague and Bubba are both highly effective against low tier comp, but fall off significantly against good players.
Killers like Trapper and Freddy don't really have enough "intricacies" to unlock to make them competitive regardless of player skill. Their potential simply isn't there.
Like I could unlock all the intricacies of sword fighting with a butter knife, but it's still gonna be a butter knife. It's not that intricate, and neither is Trapper, even at his skill ceiling.
I suppose that is really just reinforcing your point.
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We respect your opinions but we gotta ask how the hell you made this tier list?
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@Thusly_Boned As with any tier list I don't expect everyone to agree with all my placements for sure, but yes as you said, Trapper can only ever get so high as it is, but that is part of the reason he is at the highest tier in terms of difficulty. But with a Trapper as with most M1's there is a requirement to learn the fundamental principles of proper anti-loop techniques and to have better than basic strategic mindsets (mindgames) in order to even get close to competitive play. Which is why most of the hardest are those guys.
The reason at least to me Bubba is so low in difficulty is the same reason Wesker is, the threshold to learn and understand that killer is so low that it used to be the go to for all the sweatiest tunnellers and campers. That being said, it still won't mean you can play at a high tier. As with plague, the meta for what to do with a plague seems pretty simplistic in my mind. But how effective you can be at doing it depends on the players basic understanding of anti-loop. Applying pressure with a Plague is wildly simple compared to other killers just based on how she works. Pressure doesn't mean win though of course.
But yeah as you said, my point is it's quite frustrating to play a low-tier killer at a high skill ceiling and be told just play blight or not as good as blight, as if blight is this really hard achievement to get good at. I kinda hope I can show people how much more impressive it is to run into a really strong Wraith, Legion, Myers, than it is a Nurse or Blight.
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Hardest are Billy, Blight and Oni. After 1600h I still cannot do anything (or just ignore their powers), literally anything, just either M1 or lose.
Second are Nox, Bubba and Nurse.
All others are very manageble. So it's extremely subjective.
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I sort of disagree with your list placements. For me "Hard" means that if you put a player with little experience with this killer (say 5 hours), then they would get little value out of their power, and overall perform poorly. In contrast "Easy" would mean that the power gives a lot of value even if you don't master it.
By that definition, most of the killers you've placed in "Hard/Hardest" are in fact quite easy. Legion, Myers, Ghostface's powers are honestly braindead and will give you great value during the first hour of trying them. You need a good understanding of chases, but that's the case for every killer except Nurse, so I don't know why we would put these specific ones in "Hard" or "Hardest". Then you have killers like Clown or Trapper who require definitely more knowledge to utilize their power correctly, but at the same time you'll still be able to do the right thing in 90% cases by just doing the straightforward thing, their power is not particularly difficult to understand, nor execute.
For me, the only killer I consider "Hard", is Billy. His power gives barely any value without practice, and it's still difficult to execute even once you know what to do. But disclaimer, I haven't tried every killer.
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do you mind explaining... all of the positioning on the tier list? literally all of them. very few make sense to me
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Before I do, I need to know if you and the poster above you actually read my entire explanation, as this is not a judgement of how hard it is to literally play any of these killers. It is a judgement of how hard it is to master them and bring them into a competitive level of play.
Consider this way of looking at this tier list. This is how hard these killers would be to play, if the person playing each and every one of them, had a minimum of 1000 hours spent playing that particular killer.
Another way to clarify this is to say that if a person played a REALLY GOOD BUBBA or REALLY GOOD TRAPPER, this tier list shows the level of difficulty in "getting to that point of skill with that killer".
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Singularity, Blight, Billy and Oni are the hardest for me. Singularity is just too complex for my smooth brain and I still can't figure out how to use the other three when they're 'dashing'.
Also, I disagree about Trapper. He's the easiest killer to play. He's difficult to win with but he's not difficult to master, his power is the most straightforward and the only thing you can improve at is trap placement, which will come naturally with game sense.
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First, yes we (shared account before you ask) read the entire post (twice each).
Second, with the consideration of the above post, we're still EXTREMELY confused as to a lot of the placement logic.
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There is no way in hell you find Myers and Wraith harder to master than Oni, Blight, and Hag.
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I did. a couple times to make sure I wasn't missing something. and now again. still, very few make sense to me
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@Rulebreaker Well, half of the game when it comes to any killer is anti-loop techniques, and unfortunately with M1 killers like the ones in the hard category, even knowing those is often not enough, you require a higher level of play and understanding of the game to actually be able to play those killers to a comparable win percentage that the higher tier killers can achieve much more easily. While yes trapper is straightforward in terms of you place traps and all that. It takes a complex level of play to learn how to strategically place traps and successfully force or funnel survivors into them lest you are nothing more than an M1 machine which would require insane levels of skill to be very successful at.
A lot of the easy killers are ones where the complexity of the killer is quite low and the difficulty in reaching their potential is quite achievable as they do not suffer a lot of the drawbacks as M1 killers do.
The killers in the middle tiers are ones that have a degree of difficulty in learning all there is to know about how to make them useful and vary in how rewarding it is for doing so. You will notice that nurse and blight are not labelled the easiest, but it is not that difficult to play a decent one, the reward for even being average with those killers is super high. However a Spirit while also highly rewarding is still quite difficult to master as the reliance on sound limits a lot of players without really good headsets and is a skill most players are not adept at utilizing in the first place.
Post edited by BloodBird on0 -
Thank you for the explanation. Admittedly we still disagree with the placements but now we know the logic behind them clearer.
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I am not a 1-1 expert on every killer, but I have experience playing them all, I have every tome challenge and achievement in the game completed. I even play 13 other killers aside from my main with a good degree of skill and higher understanding and my main is also Wraith. I talk about this subject from a reasonable vantage point of knowing just how hard playing a Good Wraith is compared to other killers. When I play Wesker, winning is hardly as difficult, but I find it less rewarding as it is the skill ceiling of the harder killers that I quite enjoy improving at.
I've also lost enough games against TERRIBLE nurses and blight's for no other reason than the fact that they are a nurse or blight and my team is not a "really" coordinated swf, but most other killers that lacking would lose otherwise.
I never can have a proper discussion about this with the community and people often misunderstand the subtle difference between actual tier placement, difficulty to learn a killer and difficulty to "master" a killer and it's the last one in my mind that really sets apart good players from bad.
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We don't doubt your experiences, but we've also had our own (since doc came out) playing everyone as well. We didn't mean to offend if we did, all we're saying is that we think the order is odd.
To give an example with (what we assume to understand) is your logic is nurse. High floor sure, but her ceiling isn't and once you reach it it's not as satisfying to kill ppl as say hag and we agree.
Then take twins. While not as high as nurses floor or ceiling wise, it's still up there to master herding survivors into victor or Charlotte and downing them in a timely manner and is satisfying to do. We can't say she's base good as bleet or nurse but it's more satisfying to succeed with her while still taking skill to pull off the tricks you can do with them and takes similar knowledge as trapper to herd ppl, except you got 1 "trap" in their case (admittedly a mobile one). This is also Abit opinion based but still stands to some reason no?
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I think Spirit should be moved up a little, as I've found her relatively easy to do very well with, but otherwise I think this is good list.
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Oni, blight, and billy are the hardest, just because of new maps having weird collision.
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Legion main here. Huge stretch to say they're one of the hardest to master. They do have some tricks that barely any Legion players use. Being able to make use of your lunge to get in front of them and even using it to block a window is a really clean strat if you know exactly what to do and when to do it. For more leniency with the time window, you'd run bracelet which (I mean, who doesn't love that addon?) basically everyone uses and if they don't, they SHOULD. Heck, I even use the lunge to just get closer without tagging them again so I can be closer when I fatigue.
It did warm my heart when a friend of mine who watched me stream in discord vc said I made them look S tier. ~v~
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Sorry, even with your explanation, what does Freddy has in dificulty that puts him above Singularity/Sadako? His kit is not very unique, his blood pools are very easy to understand and the rest is just a m1 killer which the other two also have. Sadako's anti loop is way harder to understand and utilize.
Hell how is freddy harder to learn than pinhead? Finding the box on itself is already more complicated than anything else freddy has.
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@FilthyLegionRevival Legion is one I wasn't 100% sure about but I def think he goes in the hard category tho.
@Donleov I'll try to be a little clearer, when I use the term master a killer, I don't just mean learn their tips and tricks, but it's the second stage of learning how to USE those tips and tricks to be able to successfully play them and win on a consistent basis. And to do so without tunneling is oft even harder to do. Freddy is so hard to succeed with even knowing his tricks are often not enough, you need to do more, while blight, once you know how to bounce around, you're gaming at that point.
Difficulty to me, is comparing all the killer not in winning potential (as in 90% vs 100% vs 5 gens left vs 1 gen left) but in consistency potential. I put 80% as an achievable threshold for every killer in the game, the question becomes who is hardest to get that 80% with and maintain it, and to me, that's what this tier list is.
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With tiermaker dot com. Duh. :P
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I mean this in the least rude way possible, could this be a you issue? All three of those Killers have a lot they can carry over to the other, and as a Billy main I wouldn't put any of the three as toughest (albeit all three are tough) .
Like I struggle too much with Trapper and Hag, but in no world would I call them hardest to master, I just ain't that good to plan everything out like that... if that makes sense :p
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....well we did ask....
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i'm just gonna assume this tier list is just "how skilled of a player are you if you can 4k as this killer against survivors with more than 80 iq. or just you are praising basic m1 killer players but idk how much it will work out to incentivize ppl to play those in this meta.
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I understand what you mean, but to me that is not difficulty to master the killer. That is difficulty to achieve a win due to the killer being weaker overall. Sure, it's harder to consistently achieve wins as Myers against skilled survivors, but that's because he is weaker. He is not harder to master than any other killer, simply because his power is extremely simple to use and learn. You must learn when to stalk without wasting too much time, 99'ing your stalks and sneaking up on people. Beside that, you just have to be aware of how to use the benefits of his TIII. Like, know when you will get a hit with your extended lunge and if quickly vaulting that window will award you with a hit or not.
All of those things are extremely simple and can be learned in less than a day. Beside that, it will all come down on your knowledge and skill on the basic killer mechanics. In other words, if you master the standard ways of applying pressure, M1 chasing, mind-gaming and making decisions while playing killer, you are close to mastering Myers even if you have never played him. Meanwhile, mastering almost every other killer requires you to master both the standard mechanics AND a power that requires more skill.
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Of course it my issue. Blight is the second tier killer after nurse, I see what people can do. I opposed tons of Oni's, and had my share of Billies. It's just there's something I still don't know, but I can't do anything with them, the momen I use their powers, I give survivors room to breath and escape. Back in a days, all "adepts" I did by NEVER using their powers.
So I don't quite get your point. It's obviously my issue, but aint what this post is about?
P.S.
I was hag main for a year. Love that granny <3
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Honestly, when talking about max skill ceiling, I believe the Blight is the hardest of all. He and Wesker are the only killers that actually require you to know the colisions of objects on each map to master them, but Wesker only uses that on a couple of techs while Blight needs to make choices based on that all the time. Blight also requires you to know how to position your bounces on each tile, get used to the turn rate, and some of his techs require at least moderately high dpi.
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How in the world are Myers Freddy Legion and Wraith harder to master than Billy Blight Oni Artist Huntress Pinhead etc.?
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To master, it's blight. No one has mastered that killer.
If it's about results then it's a different story.
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Ohhh my bad, I thought we were debating objective and not subjective. In that case I retract my point :3
And idk how you can main Hag for a year, I can barely play her for a game T^T
All of that is interesting...never really took into consideration any techs as I'm a console player (so I'm stuck with what I have). Personally I'd say from research Clown is the toughest after Arinad showed off how much there is to him with a 160 page guide on how to play him to his full potential.
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I disagree with Trapper, Freddy and Wraith being the hardest to master. Part of your argument seems to stem from certain killers are easy to cheese with and therefore 4King with them is less challenging simply because you can abuse certain strats fairly easily. A lot of Trapper 4Ks comes from Trappers just bringing Agitation/Iron Grasp and just playing basement Trapper and setting 40,000 traps around Shack and it's extremely hard to not at least 2k doing that unless you mess up horribly.
As for Freddy and Wraith they just don't have enough mechanical depth to be considered hard to master, once you figure out how to body block pallets as Wraith you've pretty much figured out the most complicated trick he has. Can getting a 4k as Wraith or Freddy be challenging? Yes quite challenging but this is where I disagree with your premise in general I think. Hard to 4k =/= Hard to master mechanically. What you're saying basically boils down to "Playing m1 killer with no power is hard" which like yes that's correct but that's not a skill specific to Trapper and Wraith that's just mastering the killer role in general.
Like Artist for example is much too low and one I would put at or near the top. Can you just put bird at loop and win that way? Probably yeah but her actual potential of being able to judge where a survivor is gonna be after you bird them from long range and hitting that snipe takes a lot of practice as does setting up multiple birds for staggered hits to get health states from across the map and that's what mastering a killer is IMO.
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Everyone is going to be different because some people will naturally be better at achieving what you call the full potential while you struggle with it and you can be better at killers they may struggle with, for example I don't do well with Leatherface but I have a really easy time with billy even though you have him as hard, in fact I had quite a few to drink and ran over some survivors just last night copycatting rapidmain with racing wheel billy lmao it was fun for me at least
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During the first at least 15 to sometimes even 30hrs of learning a killer, it’s always bare bones. Perks and add-ons are a hinderance to the intimacy between myself and the character. It’s the only true method of understanding the overall potential each killer possesses.
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Skill set always varies from person to person, imo. Regarding individual/overall strategy or power per killer: What’s easy to learn or master for one or many, just isn’t as simplistic for others, or all.
Huntress is much higher (highest actually) on the difficulty list, for me.
As much as I’ve tried, unfortunately just cannot connect w hatchets, even remotely consistently.
Inability to master the most basic of intricacies, in order to unlock her “full potential,” has Huntress shelved, for me, indefinitely.
Don’t really mind the happenstance either, in that her lullaby, while eerily cool and somewhat menacingly sinister, is unnerving, all match long, for me.
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That’s a fair point I suppose, but I still think players who can do well without being toxic on weaker killers deserve more respect from the community than s tiers who go on win streaks in pubs by tunnelling every game.
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I would agree with Freddy, but disagree with Trapper. Trapper can place traps along loops (not on the pallet or window, but where they rotate), at 2nd story drops (at a different distance for slow vaults and rushed vaults). There can be extra mind-games to force the Surv to leave tall loops by pretending to trap then continuing chase instead, or bringing a Silent Trap add-on and Coffee Grounds to get a speed boost hit. Because you have so little to start with, there is a great degree of creativity and skill expression in getting hits and downs.
As far as Blight/Nurse being lower, I would even drop them to Easy. People make fun of Dull Merchant for the 'flowchart' gameplay, but Blight and Nurse are the same thing. If you use power correctly as Blight/Nurse you get a hit. If you follow the flowchart you win. There isn't nearly the level of back and forth the other Killers have with trying to outmatch their opposition. I think people confuse the effectiveness of a Killer with the skillful expressions done. There isn't skill if there isn't a realistic chance of failure. That's why Blight mains go for tricks, because it is impossible to lose if they just followed the flowchart.
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