I don't really understand the "rants" about Xeno...
Guys, I think we allowed to have more strong killers in the game, don't you think?
I don't get some complains about "Turrets being useless", or "Xeno have no counterplay", or "Xeno have no skill to play".
I play this killer regularly, and I can personally say, that placing turrets ALWAYS affect the outcome of the match. If survivors being lazy about turrets there is a fair higher chance of losing the match badly.
Turrets should not have a 100% chance of kicking Xeno out of power, it's all up to Xeno reaction and decision (hit a turret or survivor), also up to survivor's good placements (hiding in the bushes or tall grass).
But even without using turrets, there is a fair chance of wiffing the tail attack, if survivor just simply pushing left\right (juking), or playing against the same way they play against huntress or Nemi.
Using tail attack is not THAT easy, let me tell you, it takes with practice and understanding of it's mechanic, but not to the point of "Xeno takes no skill".
I do agree that missing tail attack should be a little more punishing, but thats about it.
Like, how is Xeno have no counterplay?
Guys right before Xeno we've had a Singularity, you do understand that if Developers buff turrets, we would end up in a "Singularity 2.0". I personally don't want this to happen, and more so, I don't want another "B-tier, survivor sided" killer. Nor a 3-gen killer.
Come on guys, Xeno is not an S-tier.
Xeno is close to Wesker in my opinion, we didn't have a proper optimal killer who can compete in the current DBD from Wesker release. Aside from very unfun 3-gening Sm and Knight.
Xeno strong, but not OP, it's actually up to you.
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It seems that you did not try to enter a tunnel after being burned
I had a miserable match where two flamethrowers were placed and I still managed to knock him out of his power
He simply entered the tunnel and after 3 seconds he regained his strength as if nothing had happened
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You forced the killer to drop chase. That's still a win. It really seems like survivors won't be happy unless the turrets make xenomorph unable to do anything and becomes bully fodder.
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What about the huge amount of time I wasted for two flamethrowers?
and he simply entered a tunnel, followed steps, and began to chase
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The thing is that, you already gone far enough for Xeno to even care about chasing for you. And you wasted enough Xeno's time (it's not a 3 seconds btw) for your teammates to do gens on the other side.
I can't see how turrets are useless in any point.
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Xeno's power shouldn't charge as fast as it does while being underground, and turrets shall kick Xeno out of the power much faster than they do at the current moment, especially with add-ons involved. Get rid of those add-ons or further increase the damage dealt by each turret.
Besides turrets doing pretty much nothing unless stacked at one place, problematic add-ons (turret ressistance add-ons), and almost zero punishment for missing tail attacks, Xeno is in a perfect place.
If we were to go even further, then adding a cooldown before heading underground would be the most I'd do. For example, unless your power is at ~25%, you can't enter the tunnels. It's not like charging it takes that long even when you're above..
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Yes, I take a flamethrower and move very slowly to place it near a generator and then repeat this process, only for it to be destroyed in 2 seconds and then enter a tunnel and regain its power.
Do you just answer with bias?
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People forgetting that this is a 4v1.
As in a team of 4, you can't expect to be able to run a good killer player for 5 gens, it's just not ok.
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Mm, and that's why the key is to split up against Xeno, use at least one turret per a generator because carrying them takes too long even if you use Fixated.. Ehm.. Self-Awareness; The moment you hear Xeno approaching, you're changing your position, attempting to flee and try to fix another generator.
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"Another problem is the way Xeno's power works; You can easily stack Play With Your Food and focus entirely on tail attacks the entire match, and you're basically playing against a ~130% killer with anti-loop ability with little to no punishment for missed attacks. Like, sorry.. But that's too strong."
It's not working with Xeno's M2 anymore. You lose stacks of PWYF when you hitting M2.
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Oh, so there was a hotfix already? Phew..
Alright, that's one thing that have had to be fixed.. Now, we need to wait for the rest of them..
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i personally think emps don't have much of an effect on a good singularity but xeno is much much easier to play.
if people actually gave singularity a chance they'd realize he can be an oppressive and a very fun chaser.
if Survivors disable your emps in chase you can easily replace the biopod and infect em again.
but why do that when you get a power that's the only requirement for is to press a button at every loop and get a hit, no charge up, no cooldown, very low skill ceiling and pretty much copy pasted from another killer but better.
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Dude, there is 3 survivors besides you, who just sit on gens, while Xeno is trying to deal with your "Turret" shenanigans.
If he tries to leave you and go for other gen from a tunnels, guess what, there is another turrets.
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Guess what also, a survivor carries a flamethrower and moves very slowly and that's what? This means that the killer is playing against 3 survivors now
So i wastes 14 seconds just to put a flamethrower (in a good place) and then repeat the process again, but with a longer time, and all of this is just to get him out of his power.
So, will you be rewarded after all these efforts? No, you will be slapped and enter a tunnel, and after 3 or 4 seconds, it will regain its power
So flamethrowers are useless and are a trap to keep you away from generators
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This is always a bad take. Yes, the game is a 4v1. This does not mean that the 1v1 does not matter at all.
In fact, if the 1v1 is bad, the 4v1 does not matter. It does not matter if there are 4 Survivors when they die like flies because the 1v1 is so bad.
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I mean as far as watching many survivors gameplay as I don't tend to play survivor myself much, xeno seems to be a noob stomper and he mellows out against good survivors. It takes time to learn to counter a killers power and under a week isn't gonna cut it. As time goes on more and more people will get better at countering xeno, from turret placement to, punishing his tail. I think at the very least unless the killer has game breaking bugs they shouldn't be touched for a month. The unofficial knight light stats show xenos kill rate over like 2000 games at around 57%, at around 4th behind onroyo, skully, and wraith whom are all noob stompers as well. Point is survivors are already starting to learn her counters and it hasn't been a week, wait until the end of the month and see where xeno lands.
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But they don't die like flies, no? =)
Let's say you play Myers or GF, or Piggy or etc M1, and you play 1v1 against a survivor equal to your "skill level", this survivor will run you for a good 3-5 min.
4-5 min is enough to complete all 5 gens, you know? Drop the chase? What if all 4 survivors at the same skill level?
This is what I don't want the killers to be, it's not fair, I watched a lot of vids about 1v1 and good survivor gameplays, most of the time it's not a killer's "skill issue" it's more of a map design and perks that both sides uses.
Now we have a killer who can down survivors within 15 - 40+ seconds, and people want it to be nerfed. -_-
Besides the facts that this killer have obvious counterplays.
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yea no one ever talks about this at all. the turrets hurt the survivors more than help them due to how many times you have to set them up for minimal reward.
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"Turrets should not have a 100% chance of kicking Xeno out of power, it's all up to Xeno reaction and decision (hit a turret or survivor), also up to survivor's good placements (hiding in the bushes or tall grass)." --- True. But it should also not have a less than a 20% chance of knocking Xeno out of power. Nor should setting one up in a viable location require 20+ seconds, tripe that for the second turret that is pretty much required.
"But even without using turrets, there is a fair chance of wiffing the tail attack, if survivor just simply pushing left\right (juking), or playing against the same way they play against huntress or Nemi." --- That's a practise and patience issue. Try to "wiggle" against a good Nemo or good Huntress and you'll get hit almost always, same goes for Xeno.
"Using tail attack is not THAT easy, let me tell you, it takes with practice and understanding of it's mechanic, but not to the point of "Xeno takes no skill". --- Actually hitting the M2 above obstacles and rendering whole tiles obsolete due to the range and xz drag does take skill. - The "no skill" argument stems from there being effectively no repercussion for not having the skill to actually hit. You just try and try and try again until you do hit. It's like huntress without having to ever reload while having the windup speed add-on.
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Xeno's tail strike seems to hit all the way from Jupiter. Even when it wasn't supposed to hit it does..
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I do disagree with that; The tail's range is of no problem. The problem is that there's little to no penalty for using your tail and missing. That's something that should be changed. Even Huntress does keep the speed penalty for a little while after missing her hatchet, so why's Xeno having such a fast recovery speed?
I think, they shall remove the hindered penalty and allow survivors to run with the turrets; That'd fix this issue and offer a fair counterplay, as there's a limit of how many turrets survivors can place at the same time.. At least as far as I know.
Or, I dunno what else to do about this, to be honest. Keep the hindered penalty, let survivors run with turrets, or simply remove the hindered penalty..
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Most people arent saying hes OP, (al though of course there are some) theyre saying hes unfun to go against. Think of it like SM or Trickster, 2 killers that are also complained about (Trickster not so much nowadays) not because theyre OP by any means, but because theyre a chore to go against.
Reason why (at least for me) that I dont think hes fun to play against is because he encourages unfun gameplay of just holding W and predropping pallets. There is barely any skill expression on either side with this kind of gameplay
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People literally saying that he's not fun to play against because he's overpowered, I've yet to see a post that guy complains about his ability design alone. xD
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And thats mainly because people mistake unfun for overpowered. Flashlights are probably one of the best examples, having posts pop up now and then claiming how overpowered they are and how Lightborn/Franklins is a necessity, despite being the weakest item a Survivor can bring, except maybe Firecrackers.
Same can be said about Made for This, only thing thats even bordering it from being overtuned isnt the speed boost, but the paired up Endurance it has with it. Despite this majority of people complain about the speed boost.
Reason why Xeno is so prevalent is because hes new and of course people are bound to complain about new additions that arent fun to go against since theyre more prevalent. The complaints will slowly die down, just like they did with Made for This as we can already see them sizzle away.
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Every new killer come, always screams about "overpowered". Xeno is very ok, pretty above average killer. The ability to always see you and appear near you is much more threatening, but people are "tail" "tail" "tail". His tail cannot be held or canceled, like Nemi do.
Maybe the only thing I'd change is make tail priming sound more distinct (like Huntress or Nemi). Rather hard to hear it now, along all that screeching and other game sounds.
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It isn't the raw strength of Xeno, its the lack of counterplay when you aren't facing a Baby Xeno. Would you consider a Nurse who consistently fails to blink inside Shack anything other than a Baby Nurse? It is the same issue with Xenos and turrets. When people say "X Killer needs skill", they often are more accurately saying "it takes longer to learn how to ride this bike". Once you learn to ride the bike of Xeno, it is unenjoyably oppressive on the Survivor sided gameplay, and it doesn't take that long to get there either. Singularity is a Killer that actually "needs skill" compared to all the other Killers, and by that I mean it takes a lot more time and effort to learn to use it to its full effectiveness. Xeno/Nurse/Blight are jokes to learn compared to Singularity, that's why people don't play it.
I've done the math in other posts, but the add-onless Xeno has to be 50% slower than the average human to fail at reaction M2ing a turret. Xeno also can reaction M2 Resilience Fast Vaults. Finally Xeno can respect the pallet and only M2 if they drop. This allows you to either get the hit around the loop if they don't drop, or build Bloodlust and get the hit 5-10s later. This is assuming the Xeno knows the mechanics. Tail whip go forwards and break turret, I need to be this close to tail whip. Xenos that don't know the mechanics are essentially the main ones to lose/miss/get burnt out. Again, only baby Xenos. Alternatively the Xeno gets burnt out because they know they'll get a free M1, and can then break the turret, crawl for 3-5s in the tunnels and emerge again at the same or a different gen if they need crawler mode to begin with.
If you are mid turret grab and the Xeno emerges, free hit. If you are carrying the turret to set it up and are less than 10 meters from the tunnel, free hit. You have to spend 2s dropping the turret, so you can't run, and you can only run 2.6m/s while carrying the turret. Finally, you have to spend forever finding a pixel that allows you to place the turret on many if not most maps. The placement rules are too restrictive.
So yes, Xeno isn't OP, its just no fun to go against. You are hoping the draining sands of your life trickle slower than the pumping of the gens. When your team goofs off in the slightest against a Xeno with their head on straight, you suffer.
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The problem is there are bugs in place atm that is making everything hard to assess. The movement speed loss not being applied correctly is a pretty major one.
After playing vs. the Xeno a while, his ability and turret counterplay largely seems fine... and when you get to play around turrets, the Xeno is loads of fun, win or lose. If you manage to bait the Xeno into a surprise turret and Xeno gets pushed out of Crawler mode, then happy days, loads of fun, and you're rewarded for smart placement, good baiting. If it doesn't then at least it took time to swing at the turret.... and you have to start desperately running and prethrowing, trying jukes to survive. It get's intense...
The ONLY problem with it's power is the ability to tunnel on Xeno is pretty up there. Tunnelling is a common complaint against Killer's in general, but Xeno gets more flack because it is REALLY good at it...
However how much of that is core design? Maybe that might be largely due to the bugs making its tail even more oppressive than it should be.
Post edited by UndeddJester on0 -
Think for average survivor not top level because it's irrelevant, nemesis who has to hit survivor 3 times has a massive slowdown on missed whips, looping is non existent against xeno and bhvr nerfed vaults into the ground just after releasing a killer that can already defeat the purpose of vaults... then that new perk ultimate weapon is broken as hell
it's a combination of bs last few updates are all awful with sadako-knight-SM and now xeno.. see the big picture it's not hard to understand
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I don't mind playing against a xeno. The problem is tail strike hits all the way from Jupiter. Getting hit by tail strike whenever you are clear over a pallet or window is Dumb af. Plus the anti turret add-ons xenomorph can use make using turrets completely pointless.
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I feel if xeno was truly OP then everyone would be 4king with him no matter what. I can't speak for everyone of course but I can tell you I'm having a hell of a time with him. He one of few killers I can remember that I struggle a lot with on the first week. Singularity was the other killer. This week my xeno matches have been really hard and kinda unfun. I lost all of them and got on avg 1 kill at most. I haven't even gotten a 4k with this killer yet. So honestly I don't know how ppl are saying he OP. I feel a OP killer would allow anyone to get easy 4ks almost every match no matter their skill set.
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Damn, you struggle with Xeno, guess it's fine then.
Most players, once used to it, have an insanely easy time.
Last Xeno match I had, they literally had 4 hook stages on 5 gens.
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You can state "MMR shat itself" or "Trash survivors" all you want, but I've seen Xeno consistently getting at least 2 hooks before first gen pops, unless it's a team with premades with gen slam builds and BNPs.
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For one thing I never said xeno was fine, I just say I don't understand the rants about him being OP. To me he seems to have a fair amount of counterplay and survivors can beat a xeno. The thing is if you nerf xeno to much you end up with another killer no one wants to play. Xeno will just join singularity and other killers ppl just don't want to play and we just be back to survivor complaining about all they see are nurses, blights and weskers.
Also as I said I can only speak for myself. For me xeno feel really weak and sometimes not even fun to play. That just my opinion tho. I'm just one person so my opinion means nothing. I'm just speaking my mind on the subject and saying what I exp.
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That's the whole point of the tail whip. It wouldn't be very useful if it just was basically M1 range.
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Well, Xeno's got the range of tail with the cooldown and slowdown of an M1.
If the point is "you die within 15 seconds of chase" then mission ######### accomplished.
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What does this have to do with my words?
This is an example of how bad flamethrowers are, don't buy you time because you wasted time to put them in a good place for only 1 second to escape in case he decides to destroy them.
You need to stack it to be able to get him out of his power
The only good thing is that it tells you how close it is
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No one with experience is saying that he is S-tier.
What it is though is going scott-free without any reprimands when it misses an M2. It doesn't have proper audio cues, unlike literally the entire killer roster. It can get a tail hit on all loops over every type of wall/debris. It can even hit you from around corners, even when not injured.
WHeras with huntress/Nemi those all differ and have conditions, Xeno has none.
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