"Xeno's M2 is impossible to react to!"

it is easier for survivor to complain killer OP then learn to play against the killer.

Xenomorph cannot hold the tail. Once the tail attack is used, it will fire.

I'd be more interested in seeing this multiple times in a game. First hit, the killer isn't going to know for sure if you have DH or not. The second hit may be a completely different story. This would also speak more on what people are saying between reacting and predicting. If you can hit it against a killer that holds their attack or tries to bait out DH, then that would lean more towards reaction.

With that, I'd also like for survivors to be able to see the killer they are playing against at this point. I see a lot of counters to killers on these forums that involve running a certain perk. I've probably ran DH in less than 15 games in all my play time. I don't want to run it every game for the chance I might go against the Alien.

For me, the more I've played against the killer, it's gotten a little easier. I just want to see the bug fixed for no slow down, or whatever it is. Then I can make more of a judgment.

Because like in the clip you posted, the Xeno can freely take an M1 for a guaranteed hit, so preventing a hit is solely on the Xeno to screw up. Feng was healthy, so even if you really wanted to apply the tail debuffs from add-ons, you could down her with the tail hit and injure her with the M1.

A Killer that moves at 4.2 but can phase through walls and is immune to pallet stuns will always get the hit on Survivors, so all it makes the match is a test of how macro efficient the Survivors are. That has no counterplay, that is no fun. That exaggerated circumstance is basically what Xeno is right now.

With the .35s windup you can reaction run sideways or back into the Killer where it is hard to aim (depending on how close Nemmy is, you chose which). With .17 average reaction time by sound cues, that gives you just barely enough time to do that. That is why people complained so loudly about when Nemmy's Tentacle is bugged silent, because that is his counterplay. If Nemmy misses, he has 75% slowdown for 2.5s (losing 8.625m) If Nemmy drops tentacle to go for the M1, the Survivor has 1.5s to take the vault or drop the pallet. There is also counterplay in denying T2 by intentionally getting infected by a Zombie if he is chasing you first. That sets his pallet break super speed much longer down the line.

If Xeno misses, allegedly it is supposed to go 2m/s for 3s, or lose 7.8m. The problem is when you play as Xeno, you can very much tell there is no slowdown (worth mentioning), and there only is a cooldown. People do complain about uncounterable Nemmy (bugged silent tentacle) and uncounterable Xeno, but not nearly as much complaints exists when you can counter them. (There will always be complaints about something, but I'm predominately talking about normal complaints, not fringe always existing complaints.)

I think the PTB values were fine for everything. It felt fine enough, and not too oppressive. The only issue remaining then is Xeno emerging from the tunnel while the Survivor is attempting to get a turret. Killer Instinct procs, so you can't hide, and you don't have a turret to warn/burn out of power. This problem falls to the logic that the counterplay shouldn't also be in turn countered by the normal play (like old-old Thana providing slowdown on healing as well as gens, and healing was the counterplay).

And when holding power Nemmy is slowed to 3.8 or 4.0. You are skirting the issue. Xeno gets to 'hold power' at 4.6. If Xeno's power is not created equal in the sense it can be knocked out of power, then the power shouldn't be designed around a worst case scenario (add-onless and unaware of turret location) for Xeno to reliably break the turret, and only failing at that if they are 50% slower at reactions than the average human. Or put another way, if Xeno can be broken out of power, he should be designed to consistently be broken out of power (edit: when the counterplay is utilized). It isn't like crawling in the tunnels for 5s to camp the gen or head to another gen is that big of an ask at 18m/s.

We saw what happened when survivors have free access to completely remove a killer's power with singularity. Turrets do not need to be able to consistently break the killer out of their power. Providing distance alone against a killer who lacks any meaningful way to close the gap during a chase is huge enough as it is.

I feel OP can't win this argument. Not because they are wrong, but moreover whatever they show there will always be something some people will point out that could have been done better.

A better video would be to show a dodge from a tail whip without Dead Hard, because many will prefer to know a power can be outplayed without having to arm themselves with a perk.

However, there are a lot of numbers being hurled about (which is all well and good), but numbers are calculations, not practicality with all the factors to take into account in actual gameplay. What I do see is the Xenomorph raise the tail and the survivor watching this and timing their Dead Hard well. 4 survivors escaped that trial too and I would hazard a guess the tail whip was not used just one time.

I'd also like to add some thing else for now: The Xenomorph is quick, but there is a clear indicator of when it will strike. Compare that to Huntress. Of course, you hear her wind up, but she holds it amd when she releases it the hatchet from a close distance, as soon as she does her "Huh!" sound you are hit. There is far less warning she is going to throw. Executioner and Deathslinger can also hold their powers and fire any time.

So, I would agree with OP here, but it is tough. Harder to defend because of the plethora of shoulda/coulda counter-arguments to footage, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. OP had no hindsight when using Dead Hard and that tail swipe was a solid hit. Still, would like to see footage of a non-perk dodge used as proof in debates such as this.

Yeah, Singularity dominates. Wait, have you played him? I played him a bunch and the only matches you lose as him are the matches you were going to lose regardless. Plus you are acting like Singularity can't spend 2s to reapply the goo. The Survivor needs to waste 2s in an item grab animation for you to spend closing the distance and getting a free hit if they de-goo themself.

Xeno presses the button and .2s later the hitbox spawns while still moving at 4.6. Nemmy has to hold M2 for .35s, slowing down, then he can tap M1 to start spawning the hitboxes. (I haven't been including the Attack Open time, but I believe this is how long after the whip is prepared and you hit M1 that you need to wait before the Attack Hit time has the hitboxes linger. I don't know for certain though. If that is the case then technically Nemmy has a .6s minimum windup. But since I don't know, I'm sticking with the .35s because it is more favorable to your point.)

I'm not trying to dodge your point, I don't understand the point you are making. If he is close enough to bodyblock, then he was close enough to M1 without needing to wind up the whip to begin with. Otherwise he has too much distance to cover. In non-filler pallet loops you can take the opposite of the window or pallet in the cancellation cool-down. Eg. Shack you can take the pallet instead of the window, or Jungle Gyms at the window can take the pallet instead. This basically only applies to hyper-zoned filler pallets, but even Nemmy has a similar problem at those as Huntress, as he has to round the loop and commit to the tentacle or the hold-W at the pallet each rotation. Even if Nemmy threatens a whip every rotation, he slows to 3.8/4.0 for .35s, and 4.2 for 1.5s, losing .81/.88m each threaten, and since it is a rounded loop with a Survivor smaller hitbox this distance is compounded. Also this .88 is closed in about 1 and a half seconds, you in a rounded loop you still lose ~1.5s of distance on chasing the Survivor by threatening the whip.

The non perk part is what I'm more interested in. I can't run 10 different perks to counter everything and I hate having to run a certain perk just in case I go against something specific.

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I typed a reply to this but for some reason it didn't post. I didn't know the alien couldn't hold the power so thanks for that info. That doesn't change the fact that they don't have to use it though. They can still bait out a DH with the threat of an M1. Which is why I'd like to see it used more than once in a game.

I could be wrong but I don't think you're trying to say that this is a guaranteed counter or anything. I think you're just showing that the tail attack can be reacted to in a specific situation, which is fine. I don't think every power should have an easy counter either. Otherwise they become useless.

Until the bug is fixed I can't really make any judgement on the killer as a whole. In the current state, the killer isn't really punished for missing. So I don't know how much of an effect that will have yet.

I don't have all the data, cool down times, meters of the tail whip. But having played against the Xenomorph several times, and played as the Xenomorph, I'm having more success surviving it. I've found carrying the turret around it without placing it, acts as a detector for the Xenomorph. It will start to beep when it's close. Also, run so.e customs with friends. That's what I did against the Xenomorph to try to learn how to beat her haha. Have a good day folks

Here's a better question that nobody thought to ask. WHY should it be reactable?

Here is some math for you.

A killer's lunge makes them move at 6.9 m/s for 0.9 seconds, and their hitbox extends out by about 1 meter. In 0.9 seconds, a survivor can move 3.6 meters. This means that the killer's max range to hit that lunge from a running survivor is 3.61 meters.

The tail attack has a 0.2 second windup, during this time a survivor can move 0.8 meters. It has a 4.8 meter range. This means that the killer needs to be 4 meters away from them to hit them. The difference between 40 meters and 3.61 meters in a chase, is literally .66 seconds, almost exactly. It is 0.39 meters. And the differences in movement speed between a survivor and killer is 0.6 meters per second.

So the tail attack is "saving" the killer, less than a second in a chase. While also having a smaller hitbox, and is much easier to miss and mess up the attack.

So again i ask, WHY should it be reactable? It isn't much different in speed and distance and timing than a normal killer lunge. Where the tail gets its power, is that it can hit over and through things, like windows, and pallets. Which, if you are doing that, you aren't able to dodge anyway because you are stuck in an animation.

EDIT: I was wrong, the range is actually 4.8 meters, not 5, making my point even more.

That's not at all how Survivor works. When you get average soloq Survivors you still have a chance if someone goofs off assuming the remaining 3 have skill. It is still possible to carry bad teammates who do all 5 totems and open all the chests. What I am saying is Xeno provides no chance unless everyone is worried about macro perfection, and nothing less. At the very least that is what it feels like. Even then, when someone still attempting that macro perfection gets turret grab free-hit, you can't blame them for Xeno's poor design. No other Killer lies the entire burden on macro gameplay other than so-called 'no-life' Nurses who never fail their blinks and reads on Survivor pathing.

True! That's also why nurse and blight are bad! When they are in their power, they can't wait out DH! If you've been hooked and are running DH, you can tank one hit!! /s

If turrets are reactable to break, the tail needs to be reactable to dodge. Both circumstances need to be linked. If you can't dodge, then the turret shouldn't be reaction breakable and always burn Xeno out of power. It takes ~15s to get a turret placed and back on the gen, and currently all that does is give you slightly more pre-run time at the best case scenario (against a Xeno who has played before).

The tail attack doesn't root Xeno, you can move at full speed during the .2s windup, so part of the math is wrong. But the point the math section is missing, is that lunging can only work under a fixed distance, and can't go through obstacles, such as walls and pallet stuns. Xeno tail can hit over windows/pallets, as well as threaten a hit against stun attempts, so it makes all points of safety unsafe if within range. Given that the tunnels put you right on top of gens, that isn't exactly a hard proposition to get within range in the first place.