I thank you for buffing survivors but what about killers?
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Just addressing your point about individual hook counters, it makes it easier to determine who to hook for hook token perks such as NWO and Pain Resonance. Knowing a Survivor is on death hook also means the Killer can hook the Survivor on a normal hook instead of a Scourge hook. This is on a casual level across the board.
On a higher gameplay level, it can be used to track hookstates for 2 survivors. Tunneling only one Survivor can backfire if that Survivor has anti tunnel perks or is good at looping since it gives the other 3 Survivors the freedom to do gens or bodyblock. On the other hand , blindly chasing and hooking anyone the Killer sees is also a recipe for disaster since there are 4 survivors in game for a longer period of time.
One other strategy I’ve seen is focusing hook states exclusively on two Survivor and tunnel either one out of the game depending on convenience. That way the Killer can fallback on the other survivor if the first hooked survivor proves to be hard to catch in chase and the second hooked survivor would be hesitant to go for risky plays especially if they are on death hook.
I have yet to see another other argument for not adding individual hookstates apart from “Killers should remember who they hooked”.
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I think color blind mode might've never come if not for a careless tweet that went viral and created a publicity backlash at behavior.
A hook indicator for casual killer that want to go for 8hooks/0kills without additional need for attention. I read "we have to think about casual survivor"/"we are only a casual swf..." all over the forum but killer player that have to keep 4 ever changing survivor positions with their overall 16 perks, status of up to 7 gens (and protecting their totem) and any pallet dropped/brakeable wall left or not, in their minds. And those of us that want to play fair and friendly just don't want the additional stress or the alternative backlash when we don't keep that in mind the whole time and accidentally kill someone early.
No comment on gens, I haven't played in over 2 years. But according to the forums gens pop faster than ever and while survivor get so much whole perks/effects basekit, killer got 10% off of 4 things that individually probably don't make any noticable difference.
To the HUD, I mean the solo improvement HUD. And yes, many teammates won't act upon those informations but you can't balance or aim for the most incompetent players.
And here is another list of potential QoL improvements.
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Except this isn't about strictly buffs and nerfs but quality of life improvements like the visible heartbeat, iirc visual effect reduction of some killer powers against epilepsy, better UI for solo, easier blinding angle, basekit bt against camping/tunneling and the upcoming antifacecamp, for example. Oh, and the revert from the improved survivor movement visuals because of the backlash from survivor that didn't want to relearn their hand-eye-coordination/muscle memory.
I don't presume to know every change of the last 7-8 years but the only QoL improvements for killer in general that I remember are colorblind mode, which impacted everybody, changing the blinded effect from the blinding white screen to it's visual right now and the 6.1 interaction changes that each by itself probably aren't even really noticable.
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I don't think its needed.
Let put it this way, I really couldn't care that much. Whether a killer can see the hook state or not, but I think part of the reason it was made is its a way to discourage tunnelling by making it harder for killer's to keep track. That being said any decent player should be able to keep track, but a decent player shouldn't need see the hook states to begin with.
If killer's were able to see the hook states I would honestly expect little to change killer's who camp and tunnel will keep at and those who don't just won't so I wouldn't make posts saying that this change is the end of survivor or anything sily. But it's kind of the same thing with survivors being able to see gen progress. I don't like it, it decreases people skill but at least survivor has the justification of wanting it to try to balance the information between swf vs solo q. For killer's it's just, I'm having a skill issue please make it easier.
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Nice to see that my objectively correct assessment of the game got under your skin.
That being said, yes, both survivors and killers get nerfs and buffs, but they're nowhere near on the same level. Survivors get entire perks that become basekit, and infinitely more information than the killer has access to. Killers get...to break pallets a few fractions of a second faster, I guess? And that was the one time killers got blanket buffs as opposed to the entirely new UI survivors got which let them know when it's safe to crank out gens, the anti hook mechanics they're getting next patch, and hey, let's not forget that the devs said that they're working on a "fix" for 3-genning, because, you know, survivors can never be allowed to put themselves in a bad situation ever.
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I still contend that SWF can be a problem for killers. Especially if they have comms. I feel in this day and age of online gaming that if you play games with your friends then your most likely in a chat service of some type.
Killers are givin nothing to compensate for the communication that survivors get by using 3rd party chat. True, you can't say that everyone in SWF is using comms, but I think it safe to say we know the majority of SWF is.
Take pallet Freddy for example. In a game of all solo players you might get the majority of survivors with a surprise fake pallet. However in a SWF they just call out, Hey! Fake pallets, drop them early.
As a killer that sucks. They just ruined your build by having an advantage they should not have had. Again, the killer is given nothing in compensation. They just have to deal with it. I could go on and on about it.
As to what could be done to balance it. I have no idea. I just hope they do something. Until then tho, I will keep playing, keep doing the best I cam and keep having fun. After all, at the end of the day.. it's just a game.
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The perks that survivors got basekit are situational and require situations that benefit the killer anyway. The buffs that killers got, while smaller, stack up because they come into play, guaranteed, many times over the course of standard gameplay.
Which do you think would be more impactful: if a survivor has not performed a conspic action for 10 minutes, the killer gets to see their aura
Or
Pick-up speed increased by 10%?
Situational vs consistent is a factor. Killer's buffs were less blatant but overall more impactful because they impact EVERY gameplay loop.
Survivor just get anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-gamebreaking strats.
3-gen, as well. What could possibly have motivated the devs to address 3-genning now when it's been in the game since its inception and no one ever complained about it?
Almost seems like some incomprehensible, 4D CHESS move, ne?
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Ah yes, that situational benefit of "knowing what every other survivor is doing at any given time and thus knowing when it is or isn't safe to work on gens." Yeeeep, that sure isn't a thing that's useful for survivors to know outside of some really niche situations. Listen to yourself man. You're downplaying the buffs survivors have gotten so hard. The idea that getting basekit borrowed time and deliverance (which is actually better than deli since you don't get broken and you can use it on stage 2) is comparable to being able to see survivor auras if they do nothing for 10 minutes is absurd. You're talking as if being hooked isn't a normal and expected part of the gameplay loop, as if deciding whether to defend a hook or go pressure other survivors isn't (or rather, wasn't, considering the choice is going to be totally removed) an integral part of the killer's gameplay loop. The actual point of comparison here would be like if the devs gave killers basekit deadlock and basekit pain res on every hook as a means of preventing gen rushing, after all, gens poping is about as "niche" a situation as survivors getting hooked, and it's one that puts killers at a disadvantage, just like getting hooked does to survivors, but you certainly wouldn't be in favor of that, would you?
Considering they're completely gutting the character that made survivors whine and cry about 3-genning the most (despite being a pretty terrible killer otherwise), and functionally turning her into a powerless m1 killer, it sure seems to me like there doesn't need to be any other fixes to 3-genning. After all, the wicked witch of the gens is dead isn't she? But no, they're still going to push through a "fix" to survivors screwing themselves by not recognizing and breaking a 3-gen, because survivors can never ever ever be allowed to put themselves at a disadvantage because of a bad play.
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I agree with you on almost all of this.
The two that I kind of disagree with is your SM take and why is the game still survivor sided at high level.
SM three gen is not beatable by most players. It was a boring, insurmountable wall for most teams, so it had to be changed.
The game will always be survivor sided at the highest level, as the difference between the highest level survivors and the average survivor is too vast. That's the fault of the game, requiring too much of a time investment to get past the skill floor. Nerfing survivor tools hits the average player too hard, and giving SWF players de-buffs doesn't account for skill level, as SWF is just friends playing together, with or without VC. Not to mention it is a bad look to punish players for playing with friends. I think if BHVR found some way to bridge the gap between the highest level and casual players, balance would be easier to achieve.
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The idea that getting basekit borrowed time and deliverance (which is actually better than deli since you don't get broken and you can use it on stage 2) is comparable to being able to see survivor auras if they do nothing for 10 minutes is absurd.
Where did I make that comparison?
You're talking as if being hooked isn't a normal and expected part of the gameplay loop
Right. In what way did hooked survivors get buffed? What powers did they get while being on the hook?
You know what? I know you're not going to get this one, so I'll clarify: Yes, survivors did get BT. But BT only does something if the killer is by the hook when the unhook happens. If the killer is not around, it does not accomplish anything. Yes, getting hooked is normal gameplay. Getting unhooked is normal gameplay. Getting unhooked under the killer's nose is not, unless the killer has already won. And at that point, BT won't fix things.
And as mentioned, getting unhooked under the killer's nose is usually a free down for the killer since they can just smack the unhooker.
as if deciding whether to defend a hook or go pressure other survivors isn't (or rather, wasn't, considering the choice is going to be totally removed) an integral part of the killer's gameplay loop
Defending hooks is not an integral part of the killer's gameplay loop. The reason it's getting pushed back so much is because killers were exploiting it. Camping has been a longstanding problem. But if you don't camp, these changes do nothing to you. That's why the survivor 'buffs' are, as I said, situational.
Considering they're completely gutting the character that made survivors whine and cry about 3-genning the most (despite being a pretty terrible killer otherwise), and functionally turning her into a powerless m1 killer, it sure seems to me like there doesn't need to be any other fixes to 3-genning.
There's actually underlying game elements that prevent survivors from exploitative game styles in both this and the previous matter. Hook stages progress to put pressure on survivors, specifically to try and circumvent 'Gens b4 Hens' types that just ignore a hooked survivor. The hook timer progress specifically puts the onus on the survivors to act, and gives the killer some pressure from a hook.
But then killers exploited it by, initially, making unhooking entirely impossible, and later by making it practically impossible. So now that exploitative style is getting patched.
Same thing actually applies to 3-genning. To prevent survivors from just hitting /ignore on objectives and just stealth around until the match closes, if the match hits the 60 minute limit, it counts as a loss for survivors, because the only way the devs could foresee a match going to 60 minutes is by survivor trolling.
And then along comes 'Chess merchant' that exploits this anti-exploit measure and shows that it has a weakness. So it needs fixing.
But no, they're still going to push through a "fix" to survivors screwing themselves by not recognizing and breaking a 3-gen, because survivors can never ever ever be allowed to put themselves at a disadvantage because of a bad play.
Except the Chess Merchant isn't the only one that took up 3-gen camping, and keeping 3-genning as a hard lock also closes off design space. You can't make ANY zoner killer so long as people still know about chess merchant.
Again, baseline, having to do 5 out of 7 gens means you eventually have to go somewhere that's riskier. It prevents survivors from only doing the safe gens that are all furthest away from one another. But then along comes another killer that goes 'How can I exploit this?' and it has to be reined in.
All of this stuff is always preceded by a killer breaking the game.
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You can nerf things that nerf high level survivors without hurting low level players.
Trickle Down Balance.
This video explains it perfectly, i timestamped the part where he talks about the B.A.S.E. Jumper item in TF2. Granted the video is about TF2, but the concept remains the same. It is a great video though, so if you have 10 minutes, i'd suggest watching the whole thing.
Not saying this is what should be done, but in DBD for example, look at killer shack. In the hands of a high level survivor player, they are able to waste so much of a killer's time at shack. But what about low level survivors? They are probably pre-dropping the pallet and still getting hit anyway. So what if you nerf shack? Well. Now it it won't be as powerful in the hands of those high skill survivors, but low skill/average survivors won't be effected, because they aren't using shack that way anyway, they are busy predropping it, going down 3 seconds later, and then DCing anyway.
BHVR actually did this at one point in the past, in the greatest balance decision they have ever made. And that was the change they made to Hex: Ruin. Old Ruin used to be this:
Then in patch 3.5.0 they changed it to this:
This was the single greatest balance decision that BHVR has ever made. The OLD Hex: Ruin was EXTREMELY punishing to "average" survivors. Because they can barely hit regular skill checks as it is (i remember, because at the time i was one of them). Forget about hitting great skill checks consistently. Then on top of that, they are forced to cleanse this totem, and "average" players are going to have a hard time doing that reliably. It led to a meta of "gen tapping" where people would spam m1, so they wouldn't get skill checks.
Basically, the old version was HORRIBLE for low skill and average players. But against high level survivors, they are able to hit great skill checks in their sleep, and on top of that, they know totem spawn locations very well, making it so, even if they did need to cleanse it, they would be able to within 45-60 seconds of the match starting.
The change they made, made it so that it was weaker in low level play, but more powerful in high level play where a killer would be able to pressure multiple survivors and use their knowledge and skills to do so.
They can do the same thing with survivors in many different places.
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That parachute dancing was hilarious. I never played TF2 but it does look fun.
Whilst I think balance is horrible to implement when it takes hundreds of hours to become decent at the game, there are definitely ways to sand off some sharp edges, that won't hit average survivors too hard. It feels like the maps are the worst offenders.
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Money.
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I agree with most of your points.
But...
"Why is it this community for some reason thinks that this is the only multiplayer game in existence where you can't balance around the top level."
I really want to know why this is what it is...
It seems like such a cash losing tactic.
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Are we forgetting they buffed kill rates to 60% across the board? The game is statistically balanced in the Killer's favor. That's an objective fact.
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I wouldnt even think people reached the highest mmr, they just reached an mmr over their own skill level. Killers can easily do so by artificaly inflating their skill level via camping and tunneling, which will lead to more kills, till they reach the point where it is no longer that effective.
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SWF is in my opinion the biggest balance issue in the whole game. You cant balance around swf with comms and thus perfect information and around solo survviors with basic information (the hud actually just tells you early on if the match will be worth playing or simply lost) at the same time.
It needs to be seperated and balanced differently, but i doubt the devs will ever come to that.
Thus, the bandaid is killers are strong and get easy matches vs solos, and will just take a loss when facing swf.
Killers will still demand buffs because they still cant keep up with swf, ignoring solo surivvors (because every killer in the forum faces 4swf with comms all the time, apparently), and solos want buffs so they match is not lost within the first 2 minutes.
Both sides will be thrown little bones, but nothing much will change, because the core problem will still be ignored, and the overall statistics will help with that argument, because 4k vs solos and 0k vs swf still average around 65% kill rate.
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AFC, basekit BT, soloQ hud, rushed vault distance (that one might have been reverted, still confused). killer basekit hasnt been buffed since 6.1.0, though those buffs werre quite sizeable so it makes sense. I'd have expected something more by now though.
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It is extremely perplexing to me.
My theory, although i have no proof of it, is:
- The reality is, this game is 80% survivors, and 20% killers.
- Even though there are people who "play both sides" equally, the vast majority of people have a preference, so they at least skew more often to one side.
- Because of this, in general, the majority of the player base "plays survivor"
- Because of that, now you need to think about the "average" survivor experience, which is dealing with solo queue.
- Because how miserable that can be, we see people wanting balance to made from that POV.
So quite simply, i think it is bias. When you look at a game like say, DotA 2, or LoL. Both sides are the same, so generally people look at balance decisions around top players in mind and say it makes sense.
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But your assessment was not objectively correct. The main issues with camping and tunneling was the wildly divergent skill floors to deal with them. It takes a lot less skill to camp or tunnel than it does to counter camping and tunneling.
BHVR isn't considering one side; that should be apparent from the multiple 'BHVR is x-sided' posts where x is the side the poster doesn't play; they're considering the fun of the game. What is objectively correct is that facing a tactic that you can't counter isn't fun. Camping and tunneling are super easy tactics that require a lot more skill to counter than do. That's not fun for new players.
It's also not fun for Killers that camp and tunnel when they hit the MMR where survivors can counter camping and tunneling because the Killer's chase skills, ability to provide pressure, etc are horribly out-classed by the survivors.
After the new measures go through BHVR will monitor data and buff Killers as required. That's what gets done. I played M1 Killers (mainly Clown and Trapper) during the heydey of old CoH and old DH. Those perks got nerfed and Killers got buffed as that was rough for Killers. Saying that BHVR favours survivors is disingenuous especially since BHVR has stated their goal is a 60% kill rate.
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easy solution: allow for killer to chose if they want to face SWF or not, if they turn it off SWF cannot get in their lobby
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The reason they don't just 'buff killers' is that it's too much to tweak at once with the entire killer roster. Even minor buffs just magnify the difference between trapper and nurse, making the problem worse.
They balance it by nerfing survivors, which is why nearly every aspect of survivor gameplay has been nerfed in the past year: anti tunnel disabled completely in end game, DS gutted into being merely an exhaustion reset, dead hard nerfed twice, flashlight nerfs with locker grabs and lightburn removed completely from the game, circle of healing deleted and medkits nerfed, even prove thyself and BNP have been nerfed heavily or reworked at this point. And with information power creep, even stealth gameplay is dead now. All of those are inherently killer buffs.
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Why not to replace them with bots?
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Killers don't need anything as compensation for comms. Not everyone is a 4-man death squad relaying perfect information and nothing else. Most of the time, it's just banter between friends with situational callouts like "Shack pallet's gone" and "Killer's on me", "I lost them around main", "Killer's camping", "I'll get the save" rather than constant location callouts.
The thing that makes swf strong isn't comms. It's reliable teammates.
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May i offer this GIF
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Watched my teammate getting hooked in the basement, kindred activated and everyone could see Bubbas aura vanish in the basement. Next thing I see is Nea running straight to the basement...
Yeah that "killer is camping" call out sounds kinda like what could have made a difference here.
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To be fair, Killers get blanket changes far less often than Survivors due to the fact that Survivors are all identical in their capabilities, so blanket changes are easier to do and balance for. Where for Killer, blanket changes for the whole role would stem from Killers like Nurse to Trapper in powers and strength, you know?
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Makes a lot of sense when you put it that way.
Its just a numbers thing, and a sales trend analyst would I suppose, be the person to talk to about...
balancing?
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Killers can't turn into potatoes, but survivors can.
Under these circumstances, survivors have the right to survive and escape.
That's what your opinion sounds like.
If you haven't said so, a match with potatoes in the mix of survivors must have zero escapees, and is the same as an invalid match.
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Because DbD, being asymmetrical, isn't like other games.You can balance most games just by looking at high MMR, because everyone is playing the same type of game.
The difference between soloq and SWFs is enormous. This is true of all games, but in other games both sides can either be playing without comms or as a team. In DbD the killer can't suddenly be more of a team player because there is no team to play with.
If you balanced around 4 person SWFs, soloq would get destroyed, if you balanced around soloq, even if it was the best soloq players, SWFs would have a massive advantage. So they try and shoot for the middle, which is a decision as a100% soloq player I'm not thrilled with, but realistically might be the only thing they can do.
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I would think most players would want to play better over time.
If a SWF is part of that growth path, I would assume the soloQ would want to do that.
It somehow feels a little misplaced in its punitive focus to hold back balancing simply because some players have other people phobia.
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I hope you're not implying Swiffer comms are a problem because they counter insidious basement camping Bubba.
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I´m implying that a ingame voice chat system is the only thing that could bring solos to the same information level as swf.
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Nurse bot...
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SWF is the natural growth path for survivor game play? I don’t think I’ve ever played a single game in the history of gaming where playing as a team with friends was mandatory for decent gameplay. Not extraordinary, not good. Just decent. You may want to rethink your take here, bub.
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No.
If you want to compete and win. You will do what is necessary to win.
If SWF is required to win, because the game is balanced around the advantages that it has you will do that.
Now, as I don't think the game is balanced to require that, I can mention my take on it, which is:
Learn to run with your face in the smooth loopable structures on each map and you'll be good enough to contribute your 1/4 of the work toward a group win.
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This game isn’t balanced around SWF. And games that are balanced around high-level play (for any role: See Friday the 13th, see Deathgarden) die. Why do you think that is? (Rhetorical)
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I get that. It's true not alot of swf are death sweat squads. But, you have to admit, being able to call things out is an advantage. Solo players can't know if the killer is chasing someone or if they are coming near by hearing the heartbeat.
However, swf can. "Hey guys he is on me stay on the gens" well a solo might leave the gen if he hears the heartbeat. But a swf won't cause they know. If the killer peels off of the chase tp go towards a gen swf just says, he left me he's coming to you. They run early.
So that's what I'm talking about. It's that level of communication that they should not have. Death squad or just friends chilling. It's unfair to the killer. But the killer just has to accept it and deal with it.
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If a SWF is part of that growth path, I would assume the soloQ would want to do that.Playing in a SWF is not inherently playing better, it's playing different.
Let me use pickup sports vs organized teams. An organized team would beat a pickup team barring radical difference in player skill, but that's not because the team is inherently better players, they are playing a different game.
Organized teams spend a lot of time not just working on teamwork, but working on where you fit with a specific group of individuals. This is one of the reasons even if they added comms it wouldn't suddenly bring soloq up to the SWF level.
In pickup sports part of the fun is having different teammates every game. Sometimes you might be a strong player, sometimes weak. Maybe your role changes on what you are doing. Part of the skill, and joy, is the variability that style of game brings.
Both versions bring different skills and different types of enjoyment. Neither is inherently right or wrong, better or worse.
It somehow feels a little misplaced in its punitive focus to hold back balancing simply because some players have other people phobia.There's lots of reasons beyond just "people phobia". Mine is that I feel it would really ruin the game's immersion. If someone tells me on chat that the killer is headed my way and I can get a jump on them before I even heard the terror radius, yeah, that doesn't sound very fun.
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I think it's also easy to forget that in a lot of multiplayer games a person's skill makes a bigger difference. In CoD or Rocket League for example, one skilled player can completely turn around, or win a match, up until a certain point. At a lower MMR the teammates wouldn't really matter because they could just carry the game to a win anyway.
In DBD however, at any MMR, someone can run a killer for 2 hours and it means nothing if teammates didn't do gens. It means double nothing if they finally get caught and hooked but the other survivors let them die on hook or just leave the game. So now they've carried the teammates to a win while still losing.
On th flip side, a skilled killer can sometimes lost just based on a bad map or bad rng.
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Yes. I know its not balanced for SWF. That is what the conversation was about.
These games are complicated. I didn't play the two you mentioned. And I didn't work on the development of the games, I can honestly say, I have no idea why they are gone. If you mean to imply they failed due to balancing around the top of the game, well, maybe?
I don't see the immediate association, but sure, anything is possible.
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This I feel confident in saying outright is wrong.
SWF is better.
You know the people you are playing with to a degree and you know what they tend to do, even without passing a word or line of chat, its better. This topic has been resolved by the community. I can't add much to it, aside from saying here, its an advantage, so we could continue the other aspects of the conversation.
As for the end of your comments.
Yes, I agree. The game is more fun when the competitive aspects are removed. This game works best when its just a murderer and some victims running away. I think only a few people would argue that hyper competitive DBD is the superior experience. But this whole thing was about balancing around the competitive aspects, not about restoring the game to a classic experience.
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That is a very fair argument to make.
A Hi-Rez style quick-call system might also work.
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This I feel confident in saying outright is wrong.SWF is better.Let me try and explain this in a different way because this wasn't what I meant.
Let me put it this way: who is a better shooter, a rifleman or an archer?
The rifleman is certainly more deadly and he is going to be able to hit targets at farther distances than an archer could,. However this isn't because the rifleman is better, he has an instrument that is giving him an advantage. He may or may not be a more skilled shooter, but comparing the induvial skill levels would be very difficult given the different instruments they use.
Your comment I was responding to was:
If a SWF is part of that growth path, I would assume the soloQ would want to do that.To continue the metaphor, I'm interested in being the best archer I can be, I have no interest in being a rifleman. So even if SWFs are stronger, which they undoubtedly are, its not part of my growth path because its a very different activity that I'm not interested in.
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They can't buff killers because streamers and some players would go: "can anyone think about the pooooor solo queue players already?!"
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The HUD changes were literally for solo queue. They can tell if someone's in chase just by looking at the hud. It isn't "unfair" to the killer that swf's can communicate.
The thing is that there's as much variation in skill amongst swfs as there is with solo's. A good swf doesn't need comms because they know each other and their habits. One quick glance at the hud, and you know if the killer's in chase. Panning your camera in situations where the killer is chasing nearby helps to ensure you aren't caught off-guard.
Comms simply aren't as big a deal as you think they are, at least when it comes to average swfs that is. You might be able to make a case for something like Hens' swf games where comms are extremely important, but all that has to be communicated and planned out prior to the match.
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In that particular case, I'd say Nea doesn't understand how kindred works or how undetectable works and probably wouldn't understand what camping is.
Even without kindred, if I see someone getting carried to basement by Bubba or Huntress, I wait nearby to see if they exit basement. If they don't, I know they're camping.
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I guess thats a com wheel? Or what the name of it is. Pre-defined phrases. One way or another, information needs to be on the same level for solos. So they can compete with SWF and the devs don´t have to hear "but what about solos" whenever they want to buff killers/nerf survivors. Because the disparaty between SWF and solos is really whats keeping the balancing so difficult.
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Yeah, that player later mentioned that he didn´t see that it was Bubba. He didn´t see the aura vanish and only noticed that everyone else was glued to gens.
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