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The stale perk-Meta

KaTo1337
KaTo1337 Member Posts: 550
edited October 2023 in General Discussions

First of all, let me show you the unofficial stats from nightlight:


While the top5-Killer-Perks are pretty close together (5%), the top5-Survivor-Perks are pretty interesting (15% between P1 and P5).

This does NOT mean that I want WoO nerfed or anything, but its kinda interesting to see how stale especially the survivor-meta is. WoO, Made for this and Resilience are in every single lobby when I play survivor and when I play killer, while on killer side, we mostly see a bit more variety. I assume thats because we have more variety on killer-side OR IN MY WORDS more perks closer together to each other.

On Killer-Side, Im pretty sure Ultimate Weapon will rise in stats, also Rapid Brutality is a perk I see here and there.

We need more perks worth using especially for survivors, because currently, its all about Gen-Speedup and Chase-Extension.

How about buffing the team-perks heavily, so that its worth it being together with another one. How about making stealth-gameplay better, because the hide-and-seek-gameplay is currently dead.

I feel myself as a killer-main and I have to say: Im thrilled when I see someone using different stuff, because its ALWAYS Made for this, Adre/Hope, Resilience, Prove Thyself, Windows, Sprint Burst and Deja-Vu.

On killer-side, Hex-Perks are pretty weak on most maps, not because the effect is weak, but the totem-survival-chance is. Current Undying could be Basekit to any Hex for example to make it more worth OR the Face the Darkness-Effect of Hexes are capable of moving.

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Comments

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,875

    A huge portion of survivor perks are near useless, but the problem with just buffing them is that the best survivor perks are so good that in order for something to compete with them they have to be borderline overpowered (like MfT and Buckle Up).

    There’s a lot of pretty good survivor perks such as Off the Record, Hyperfocus, Fogwise, Bond, or Dramaturgy that you would expect to see some use but because of how good the meta perks are, no one really runs them anymore.

    And then every other survivor perk is just so bad or situational.

    Buff the weaker perks but you also need to tone down the strongest perks otherwise they still won’t see play unless they become near broken.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,392

    That is something I hadn't even considered, but it is true that there are perks that in principle aren't very conditional and that do offer great value, but that get toggled off by the wrong killers. Stake-out is useless against Wraith and Myers, and all healing perks are effectively disabled by Plague.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,835

    i think it is because a lot of perk require team synergy to use and soloq lacks cohesion. the fact that window of opportunity is 32% and kindred+bond is 8.82+8.22 is 17% usage rate. it means big portion of survivors playing survivor are using 50% of their perks on aura-type perks. The only other perks you see above this are Adrenaline, MFT+Resilience and Lithe.

  • TheWarNung
    TheWarNung Member Posts: 794

    To be fair, before the big meta change last June Dead Hard had a pick rate of 75%, and other perks like BT and DS had incredibly high pick rates as well. I think the devs deserve a round of applause for all the sweeping meta changes they've done over the past year. Besides some missteps like MFT they've been working hard to balance out the perks. I think that at this point it's on us as a community to start using more non-meta perks (many of which have been buffed significantly).

    As a side note, WoO has been my favorite survivor perk ever since it's released, so I'm now in the uncomfortable position of wanting it to be nerfed a bit. I think they should bring back the cool down so that survivors can't just autopilot from one yellow aura to the next.

  • Halloulle
    Halloulle Member Posts: 1,344

    Considering there are plenty killers that make it impossible to unhook/prevent tunneling, extending chase is still the best anti-camp and anti-tunnel. It's a bit cynical but the "if you don't want to get camped/tunneled just don't get downed, ez" is actually true.

    And while do see people staying injured a lot more I also see quite a bit if healing perks. Looking at my experience survs stay injured because killers returning to hook prevent a reset after unhooking and running around to find someone to reset you a) takes too long b) is more likely to bring you right back in the killer's fov than sitting on a safe gen.

  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,095

    BT is considered useless, because it's basekit. That immediate hit just triggers the basekit version and prevents the survivor from getting instantly downed. BT would prevent killers from waiting out the 10 seconds for the down. But no one deems that necessary.

    DS is DS. Whatever the devs do to it, half the community will hate it. It was predominant before its nerf and was used in ways the devs didn't anticipate. Now the devs might be cautious to buff it even the slightest.

    OtR is still extremely strong for runner builds.

    I don't agree on no mither. People are already ignoring heals and just spam gens while injured. Equipping no mither just sounds like the next logical step in combination with resilience and mft. I'd also add soul guard, even when no one uses hex perks anymore. Simply because it gives the endurance effect on picking yourself up from the slugged state.

  • GaunterODimmDBD
    GaunterODimmDBD Member Posts: 119

    Survivors are selfish. Almost every selfish has been nerfed to smithereens. So I've just been using Windows of opportunity and Made for this. Like man there's so many altruistic perks just blegh and make your blood trails disappers.

    My treasure hunter build got nerfed to oblivion too since items aren't as good nowadays.

  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,095

    I had matches where my teammates refused to heal me until the gen was completed.

    We moved from "everyone heals under CoH" to "no one heals until gens are completed".

    One way or another, matches seem to be shorter now. No one bothers searching for hex totems, because no one used hexes anymore. People just spend most of their time at gens.

  • Neprašheart
    Neprašheart Member Posts: 439
    edited October 2023

    Hide'n'seek isn't gonna get any better, unless the maps become dark like back in the day, which'd however result in over half of the playerbase leaving the game because the consoles can't keep up with the graphics and how difficult handling the dark environment was for them, so BHVR had to remove it in order to introduce us the crossplay option.

    Perks for hide'n'seek don't count, as hide'n'seek in itself doesn't rely on perks, but on the maps and their design.. Which as you do know, does currently lack bushes, grass, and most importantly fog and the dark light setting. Some maps like The Game or Léry's Memorial Institute being one of the few exceptions where it wasn't possible to blend within even back then.


    As for the team perks.. We don't really want them that strong, because that'd encourage more players to queue up into SWF, kind of turning every single match into a sweat-fest for the killers, unless they feel satisfied with their first hook happening after seeing three generators popped. VOIP is too powerful for this game as there aren't being any balance adjustments whenever SWF is present, and so buffing the team perks, including Leader, Prove Thyself, (...), would've made gen rushing even worse and made the game much less fun for both sides.. As the players want chases, not sitting on the generators, right? And nobody likes three or four minute matches afterall.

    Hex perks are weak because there's no fog and the light is too bright for totems to blend within, making them easily seen even from across the entire map in some cases.. And there's also another matter, that being their spawn points being the same and having veteran players like me know about all of the possbile and usual spots for them, always checking if they're there in case of noticing the cursed status effect.


    Unfortunately, no change is ever gonna be made about what you're suggesting because the community votes.. Not people like us, who're the minority. They all want chases, they all want clips running away from the killer for five generators, they all wanna upload the clips of four sacrifices within two minutes..

  • WilliamSN
    WilliamSN Member Posts: 524

    every time someone mentions "killer hitting a survivor fresh off hook is bad" I feel like yall grossly overlook how that is more often than not a rescuer mistake.

    If you decide to take the chase towards the hooked player and then *unhook infront of the killer* then it makes sense for the killer to be allowed to punish such a horrible play.

    Knowing where to take a chase to and WHEN to unhook was a skill, nowadays that skill is effectively gone because survivors are freely allowed to unhook in the killers face with the only repercusion being a hook trade.

  • patronsaintofpizza
    patronsaintofpizza Member Posts: 123

    Huh? They literally made BT base kit. There is also Reassurance, Kinship, DS, Off the Record. And soon there will be the new anti-camp mechanic.

  • Chaosrider
    Chaosrider Member Posts: 489

    The thing is, as killer you can change between several ways of playing and trade in between several perks doing nearly the same (esp. slowdowns and tracking). While as survivor 99% of the roster is useless and there are no viable playstyles to choose from.

  • patronsaintofpizza
    patronsaintofpizza Member Posts: 123

    It’s interesting that I still hear the same old argument that playing survivor is so bad nowadays, killer is so easy, I’m getting tunneled out every game, etc. and Adrenaline is very much the new meta. I see it in almost every match. You would think if games were always that bad, people wouldn’t bother bringing that perk because they usually wouldn’t get to use it? It would basically be a wasted perk slot, right?

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,808

    The biggest thing about anti camp is that it's all useless. It's all so ineffective that the devs are having to add an entire anti camping mechanic because camping is not just alive and well, but out of control.

    That includes BT the perk, base kit BT, and even reassurance. None of it is enough to even deter camping.

    The only perk I've ever seen be effective against tunneling was 5s DS. Killers would consciously play around that perk, which seems like an actually effective deterrent. Keep the conspicuous actions and disabling in end game nerfs, those were fine. But the stun duration nerf killed the perk. Now it's only good for resetting deep wound and exhaustion, not anti tunneling.

    No Mither is completely worthless, you're better off bringing unbreakable. You're broken, have a target on your back from the game start, and the killer would have to be pretty stupid to leave a no Mither player slugged. It's blindingly obvious they have it since it has the biggest telegraph on everyone's HUD, immediately at game start, that the perk is in play.

  • SleepyLunatic
    SleepyLunatic Member Posts: 408

    the problem is that theres tons of perks which are just sooooo useless

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,249

    And that's gutting?

    Against most of the lower end killers it's still powerfull. It also enables the otr into ds into dh combo.

    It's more situational and less of a "just slap on" kind of perk.

    Still good though.

    Gutted is something like ruin if you ask me. I tried to make it work on a variety of killers in a variety of situations. Didn't work out.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,459

    Thing is that people really hatte the thought that you have to let go of one of the meta perks in order to run some anti-tunneling.

    MFT/Resiliance/WoO is already basically set in stone for many, because that combo is so grossly effective when it works, that when it fails it must be the games fault, not that players deciding to play wounded all match or bodyblocking and tanking a hit when unhooked and then crying murder when the killer actually chases after them.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,249

    That's what happens when core problems get fixed by adding perks to the basekit.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,459

    Yes. Every time a perk gets made basekit, it takes away from perk variety and more calcifies the meta. May main hot take always was "if you deem a perk good and desirable enough that you want it basekit, why not just equip it?". It worked for me. In the days following the medkit nerf the game was basically flooded with Adrenalin; its still a very common perk, but for a while there were three Adrenalins in every single game. During that time I just equipped Terminus and it worked; thats how a living meta works: something becomes strong due to a buff or some player calls out a strong interaction and now everybody uses it. In response the other side expects you using that perk, so they already arange a counter pick in their loadout. Eventually the effectiveness of the first option wanes, because people expect to have to counter it and peeps again vary their builds, until the next new meta perk arises, etc. etc.

    But for most of DBDs lifetime, the survivor meta is moving at a glacial pace, and all this basekit additions aren't helping one bit.

    There is only ONE thing that I would add to basekit: mini BBQ. After hooking a survivor show the killer the aura of a singel survivor x meter away. Killers of the past had BBQ equipped for the BP bonus, but the perk showed them opportunities that were worthwile and peeled them away from hook. Another good addition might be to bring back the old +25% more BP part as basekit, but only increase the counter if all 4 survivors are still in the game; ie if the killer tunnels the first survivor out their bonus will stop at 25%, but if they hook each seperate survivor before going in for a kill, this nets them +100% bonus BP. Its simple and elegant and would help a lot to incentivice killers to spread hooks and leave hooks to go hunting.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,392

    Both got 50% and an excess trim. They're really not that different.

    And both should have the 50% reverted.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,808

    Ruin at any strength would be completely meaningless to most current killers in the game.

    You could make the regression 400% and they would still hard tunnel one survivor and then be completely baffled as to why the others aren't just letting go of the gens voluntarily.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,249

    Agree.

    The mini BBQ would also be a good idea.

    I personally would create a early game mechanic for weaker killers. Maybe killers like Myers, Freddy, Pig, Trapper, Demo, Ghostface and Wraith could have a little indicator in form of an arrow or something in the beginning of the match, indicating, where most survivors 2 or more spawned. No aura, no screaming. Just a 2 second arrow or something. That would actually help a lot. Lethal would still he a solid choice for info on all survivors and no Nurse or Blight would benefit.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,249

    No. I think 5 seconds is too much. Ruin souls have gotten one of the nerfs. Ds deactivating in end game is absolute fine in my opinion. It was the most unfair part about the Perk. The real problem with ds is that it punishes weaker killers more than stronger ones. Same with Made for this. Nurse and Blight don't really care about ds. Therefore I would keep 3 seconds (maybe 4) but make it that it sets Blights and Nurse's power to 0. Therefore they can't just rush you down again. Same with spirit, maybe Wesker.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,392

    Considering the perk's activation is entirely within the killer's control, 5 seconds is fine. It should be a proper deterrent, otherwise it's not worth picking.

    It doesn't matter that its impact varies among different killers because none of those killers should be tunnelling into a DS.

  • Hannacia
    Hannacia Member Posts: 1,323
    edited October 2023

    There is OTR, extremely strong perk. There is Borrowed time. People don't use it anymore since half of it is basekit. There is DS. Sure it got nerfed but i wouldn't say its useless. Sure its useless against nurse and blight but what isn't. Use it smart. Go down near good loop and DS can buy you plenty of extra time. add little sprinkle of DH with it and i'd say you have pretty damn good anti tunnel build. DH alone is now antitunnel perk. Is it hard to use and misses time to time..sure but it's absolutely better than nothing.


    People rather use windows and turn their brains off and see the pretty yellows instead of using actually good perks.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,249

    Tunneling is sometimes a necessary evil. There is no better slowdown than getting a player out of the game. Until that changes, tunneling will probably remain a strong choice.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,392

    There is OTR, extremely strong perk.

    But not an anti-tunnel perk since it is hardcountered by tunnelling.

    There is Borrowed time

    Might buy you an extra hit, but you can't use it yourself.

    There is DS. Sure it got nerfed but i wouldn't say its useless. Sure its useless against nurse and blight but what isn't. Use it smart. Go down near good loop and DS can buy you plenty of extra time

    And if there's no good loop nearby, you're F'd because it got hard-nerfed for no particular reason.

    add little sprinkle of DH with it and i'd say you have pretty damn good anti tunnel build. DH alone is now antitunnel perk. Is it hard to use and misses time to time..sure but it's absolutely better than nothing.

    So you now need to use two perks for a harder to use, less reliable version of what one perk used to do by itself, consistently.


    None of this changes that anti-tunnel got gutted out of the game.

  • Hannacia
    Hannacia Member Posts: 1,323
    edited October 2023

    You mean the old DS that gave survivors free escape in end game? Sure it was stronger and busted. Would i buff DS back to 5 seconds.. Sure but the endgame use needs to stay gone.

    SO you rather use useless perks like windows and whatever i see lately a lot (self care) not joking.. than good perks that might buy you more time and even an escape? I've gotten so much value out of OTR and bought my team time to finish the last gen or get gen done.

    No ones forcing you to use perks that might help you, but you can't go saying there isn't perks for tunneling when there is plenty. You refuse to use them.

  • Rovend
    Rovend Member Posts: 1,064

    How can you expect to have anything but a stale meta when most of the new survivors perks are outright bad.

    Seriously, i said this before in another thread but if you take a look to the newly released perks you'll see they are:

    - Perks with very weak effects (Lucky star, Scene Partner)

    - Perks that are highly situational (Cut Loose)

    - Perks that are nerfed versions of existing ones (scavenger being a worst build to last, friendly competition being a worst Prove thyself, Cut Loose being a worst Quick & Quiet)

    - Perks that have a wall of restrictions to use (Blood Rush)

    And the ones that do not fall in these categories are either panic nerfed in PTB like Reassurance, Scavenger or get a hundred post in the forums like MFT.

  • sulaiman
    sulaiman Member Posts: 3,219

    And why is a new anti-camp mechanic needed if so many option exists? Yes, because it doesnt work at all, it just changes the approach the killer uses to camp or tunnel, but doesnt disencourage that strategy as a whole.

  • Alinpazz
    Alinpazz Member Posts: 11

    I expect the meta to change soon with the anti hook camping mechanic comes into play; im sure there will be alot of perks like kinship to rise as looping near a hook is the safest way to unhook. Also xeno perks makes calm spirit more viable. There are some other really good perks that are good; can't remember the name off the top of my head, but the perk where you have a heartbeat outside of chase makes a token and good skill checks become great is great. Just one example that idk why ppl dont run.