Survivor frustration seems the main driver of Killer reworks
Old Doctor with his constant madness building, particularly 3 genning, Sadako’s Condemned, and now SM’s 3 gen. These 3 strats have driven Killer reworks.
These Killers get their distasteful strat gutted and receive little in return, as the Killer player was not much of a consideration.
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Doctor feeling clunky and awful to play, Leatherface feeling clunky and being really weak, Legion being weak and undertuned, Ghostface being weak and undertuned, Plague feeling frustrating and clunky, and Trapper being very, very weak. These are all examples of killer reworks (some major, some minor) that weren't solely or primarily motivated by survivor frustration. There's also the upcoming Twins changes, which are sure to be big enough to warrant being called a rework and were definitely not motivated by survivor frustration.
To the second part: Doctor and Sadako are better than they were pre-rework, so that's not quite true. Skull Merchant remains to be seen, but would be an outlier if she does end up straight worse.
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Yes, it turns out when there's abusive, unintended strats that come out of the design of a killer guess who has to deal with it? The survivors. This post would be like if i said that dead hard was nerfed due to killer frustration.
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It’s not like the frustration isn’t warranted. Who in their right mind thinks 3 gen SM is healthy for the game?
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Dead Hard was the way it was for years, now we have MFT which is not being touched despite wide spread Killer criticism.
Never said it was, that said they should compensate so she is viable. They remove the ability to conduct the strat without making their power strong in a new way.
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Killers have been screaming for a rework for the 'weak m1 killer' sadako nearly since her release. Now that you're practically guaranteed a condemn kill with the rework, it's somehow survivors doing? C'mon.
The other two are, in the devs own words, not intended gameplay and holding games hostage. So yeah, 3 genning as hard as possible for an hour without progressing the game deserves a game ban, flat out.
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For real? Things get changed for survivor all the time because of stuff like this.
MFT seems to be so frustrating we see boards on it on a weekly basis.
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Well have you seen the times if the new bnp?
There hasn't changed much in terms of progression. In some situations it's even better than the old one.
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Sadako’s Condemned playstyle only got stronger and easier to accomplish after the rework?
Old Doctor was underwhelming and bad to play as and survivors didn't cause the rework?
Skull Merchant was a failed design and did nothing but hold people hostage until one side quit?
Make it make sense if you're gonna resort to "us vs. them" as your only argument and motivation LOL.
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Doctor was weak and felt terrible to play.
Legion was awful to play as and against with the 2nd worst design in DBD.
Freddy was horrifically weak.
Bubba was horrible.
Ghostface was weak.
Sadako was weak.
Oh yeah, lot of just horrible reworks there that made Killers worse.
Oh wait
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Bubba got just nerfed in PTB his ability to down survivors with endurance quickly was nerfed. Survivors has now 0,5s immunity. Camping nerf will ofcourse really hurt him. Bubba should be buffed now. He is easiest killer to loop and one of the most punishing killers to play when making mistake. Chainsaw tantrum time should be reduced significantly or removed and then hitting object's should only slow down him.
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SM is the way she is for almost 8 full months. 8 months on the 7th. MFT isn't even at 5 months yet. It will be in 10 days. Both sides demand changes. I know you mentioned other examples. I din't play for old doctor but from what I heard killers were crying for a rework as well. Legion was a disaster. Freddy was weak and killers wanted changes. MFT is a problem that should hopefully be fixed soon. I never use MFT because when it does get nerfed I want to be able to last in chase without it. Don't try and pin blame on survivors to make the game out to be survivor sided for the sake of it. And if you do please bring stronger evidence. This kind of nonsense is what annoys me people want to be angry about something but bring ridiculous evidence. I'm really sorry if this offends anyone and I'm never this harsh but this is something I think I need to give my uncensored opinion on no matter how harsh it is.
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
All those Killers get crushed by competent Survivors. You make it sound like they were buffed to A-tier.
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Survivor fun is massively prioritized 100% or the time, and killer fun rarely is. BHVR largely doesn’t care if killers aren’t having fun.
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The vault “bug” being “fixed” giving Survivors extra distance was a major hit to his viability as well.
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You can literally still down them through that.
Camping nerf did virtually nothing to his potential.
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Sadako is.
A lot of those Killers were GOOD when they got their reworks, but the last true rework prior to Sadako was over a year ago. Metas evolve. It's why a Killer like Myers, once considered to be a strong and ideally balanced Killer, is now considered weak
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Nurse was the way it was for years, now we have Blight. Which has been buffed despite wide spread survivor criticism.
Your post was yet another Us vs them sneed thread. Now we can both repeatably sling stupid comebacks at each other or you can just realize that bhvr balancing is schizophrenic and randomly extremely blind to problem parts of the game on both sides.
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In no way is Sadako A-tier. Fair enough metas change, perhaps they should update the Killers with it.
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Ah yes the age old idea that survivors are the only issue with the game lol. Imagine if facecamping and tunneling off hook wasn't a thing then we could not have haste and endurance off hit. This is one example but we don't need a paragraph to know you're reaching :)
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I would agree with that, perhaps they should update Killers more than once a year.
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i would not say so. what I will say is that bubba's ability to mindgames windows is almost there, but I would estimate that he is around 8%-10% too slow with his chainsaw to truly mindgame windows. it is possible to react to his chainsaw around corners. I still hit people that vault windows by making guesses but it is entirely based off their inexperience. at 10% beast mark, it would be like killer skewed instead of survivor skewed. The other issue is that bubba's chainsaw cooldown is really high so mindgame windows has large cooldown. It is similar to Spirit's phase-walk. to mitigate cooldown, bamboozle somewhat helps but bubba would not need that perk if his chainsaw kept 2/3 charges if he hits no one.
you are correct that killer reworks are mostly driven by survivor's amusement. that is because there is generally more feedback towards survivor playing vs killer than killer playing vs survivor. it is 4:1 so you get 4x as much feedback on survivor.
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That's because balance isn't the issue its game design.
Those killers refenced all had massive issues because killers were not using the killer as the way the devs intended.
Except for doctor which was being used as intended, but it was really annoying. The problem is a lot of killers are being released prematurely and it shows.
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Condemned is a joke, I cant take anyone that dies to this seriously. Not in any version have I reached the mori state against her. The rework only made counterplay easier.
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tbf, most killers aren't super interactive, especially for both sides at the same time.
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BNP has to be half way decent, it's an iridescent add-on. Most players don't have the ability to stack them so they have to do something by themselves. I don't know how you make them fair in a full SWF without making them useless for the average survivor.
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I get that people tend to fixate on tier lists, but they barely apply to most players. A character being well balanced for the majority of players isn't necessarily a complete failure. I genuinely feel bad for BHVR when it comes to balance. How do they make a killer that is competitive against the highest level SWF without the killer steam rolling all other survivors? The only way it works is if the killer is extremely technical, so newer killers can't use them properly. Like Nurse or Blight.
Imagine if easy to play killers like Wraith and Doctor were as strong as Nurse and Blight. They would completely wreck survivors outside of the highest MMR. It would be nice if they could be balanced appropriately, but how do you do that when there's such a huge difference between veteran players and casuals?
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Well, yeah, it's not like the killer is gonna complain about themselves. You're ignoring though that alot of people play both roles and there's been plenty of times both killer and survivor mains have been in agreement on certain issues (including SMs ability to hold one hour games - the only people I've seen frequently defending this are those who have also admitted to playing that way. So again, they're hardly going to complain about themselves).
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The rework, at minimum, did exactly what killers requested about her kit: survivors are forced to interact with the tapes.
Before the rework, the ideal survivor gameplay was to ignore the TV's in nearly every scenario. The only exception was to disable a TV near a hooked survivor to prevent an instant tunnel, or in rare cases actually clear your condemn stacks.
Now survivors basically are forced to grab a tape as soon as possible or are punished for ignoring it.
It was a killer request to make the tapes actually matter, and it's been a long standing killer request to give survivors a 'second objective', which interacting with the TV's does as well.
Calling the sadako rework a 'survivor request' is completely backwards, at best. If she was such a 'weak m1 killer', who you could literally ignore her power, isn't that the exact type of killer people claim survivors 'want to face for easy matches'? This is just blaming survivors for, I don't even know what at this point. Sadako is arguably easier to use and more effective post rework.
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you are complaining they do killer reworks based on survivors' frustrations and gave sm as an example, so i thought you implied she also shouldn't get her rework just because survivors complain.
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Non competent players get crushed by competent players.
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I was under the impression that the Sadako rework was also motivated by Nicolas Cage. It seems kind of coincidental that he brings up Sadako out of all the Killers in DBD and Sadako gets a rework out of the blue at the same time too.
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until they nerfed Freddy to be extremely weak again. Lets hope his update next year (?) will do the Sadako-Thing and Freddy would become a viable option again.
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Sadako giga buff, Legion, Ghostface, Trapper, Plague, etc. Buffs.
It's not so one sided really.
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You grab a tape and counteract the power for the rest of the game. Not very interactive, even for the straw-men Killer players that you made up.
You make it sound like countering Sadako’s Condemned is now anything more than a minor inconvenience. Then she is an M1 Killer with even her “stealth” ruined by a lullaby.
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A competent Trapper vs a competent SWF. What now?
Can’t take you seriously with calling Sadako’s changes a “giga buff.”
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Still winable, not easy, but still win able
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I agree. I just wanted to point out that the intention of the change was, that they where too strong in certain situations. They still are.
Maybe a restriction on how many could be used would be an idea. Comes with its own flaws though.
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Yes if they're bad and don't know to run to pallet or window. I don't see much potential in bubba compared to other killers. Survivors only go down to him when they make mistake. His power is so easy to loop. I do like facing him on survivor easy win if my team is not completely new or decide to throw match trying trade.
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I mean, you aren't wrong. But Freddy went from weak but interesting to broken and boring to weak and boring.
So that isn't much of an improvement. Can't say, if it's an improvement at all because I never got to play pre rework Freddy and the game has changed quite a bit too.
I also, don't agree that Sadako was that weak. She could be played in a different way (focused on condemnation) even without addons and that was pretty strong. Now she is just annoying.
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we understand that MFT is unbalanced and we have decided to fix this by nerfing the twins again
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Sadako isn’t that bad though? Her condemned strategy gives amazing map pressure, gen defense, and lowkey lets you steamroll through most survivor teams. It’s not like she’s very common now though so it shouldn’t be too tough to put up with. Plus you’re a killer main so I dunno why you’d complain about her. You normally defend every killer playstyle but for some reason you draw the line with her.
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I never said she was weak. I just find her incredibly boring to play now. I don't need to think about what I'm doing when I play her. Just teleport when survivors don't have tapes and play hit and run. Eventually you will have someone, that you know is almost completely condemned. Then you focus on them and from there everything goes south for the survivors.
I haven't complained about her play style. I just find her both annoying to play as and against. The same way I find a good Doctor or Pig annoying to play against. Because they can make your match very unpleasant. If you have fun facing her, then good for you. But it's pretty obvious, that Sadako is not very high up on the list of fun killers to play against. She doesn't chase all that much and she is pretty nasty for solo queue survivors to face.
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Doctor, Sadako, and Merchant are all killers who became more viable after their reworks
Dont know what youre on about that they got nothing in return
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All 3 are still weak M1 Killers. I do not see how this is debatable.
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Im not claiming who requested it, just that the counterplay heavily leans in survivor favor. Its not much of a secondary objective when I grab it once at the start of a match and essentially ignore her power from then on.
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You're still wrong that it's in the survivors favor, and my initial response still holds.
The survivor response to pre-rework sadako was literally 'just ignore her power all game'. Now survivors are forced to take time away from gens, saves, heals, or anything else to shuttle around mandatory tapes several times per game. There's no world where that's 'leans in the survivors favor' by any measure.
The other two examples, that you voluntarily chose, are literally against game rules. The survivors only real choice in those games are give up and go next, which isn't even game play, it's just the meta game of playing against a killer intentionally holding games hostage.
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Im fine with camping going away as I wasnt a killer who camped. I will be okay if bhvr deals with slugging and tunneling too. I do not do either of these either.
All I want as a killer is for the complete overhaul and change of MFT. It should only be a timed boost not last until you get healed.
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What 2 examples? And what rule? I stated one strategy which has worked for me every time. Takes less then 30s to locate a tv and grab my tape, after that its on to a standard game. Compared to the survivors that let the status build before getting a tape Im not losing any crucial time.
Yes I agree that the old version of her could easily be ignored, though I find her just as easily countered now.
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Oh, ok. Just seemed like you were complaining about her. I don’t find her boring to play at all. She’s really fun because she has extraordinary game control. 🤷🏽♀️
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survivor sided game, what did you expect?
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