Hot take. Sloppy Butcher slaughters soloq atm
i tried running boon COH. what happens i have to go in the boon range crouch and spin/dance and hope someone comes to heal me and that we wont get intterupted. ( cometims totems are hard to find too, especially one that isnt easy for killer to destroy)
i tried running medkits but without the insta heal syrenge. there is no point one heal at max unless i dedicate my build. and IT SUCKS WHEN I GET INTERUPTED by fast mobility killer or WRAITH.... then medkit is useless
i tried running selfcare and botany knowledge. so far the best way to heal consistently in a match but i sacrifice 2 perks for it
Makes it easy to get tunneled off hook since getting a heal fast enough before killer finds you with ultimate weapon or just fast mobility ( WRAITH..) is almost impossibly slow.
This perk make some killer viable and some impossible strong to play against in soloq ( spirit...)
Your thoughts ?
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Equip We´ll make it. Ask your teammates to equip We´ll make it. Enjoy super fast heals. It also stacks with Botany if you are into that.
Btw. killers interrupting survivors healing is the "just apply pressure" survivors always talk about. So killers are doing exactly as being told.
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so according to your logic. i need to Somehow tell my soloq temmates to equip well make it. a bad perk in general instead of their MFT . DH Hope....
also according to you i have to sacrifice 3 perks slots to mitigate the issue. isnt this the same as telling killer to play instadown powers to avoid mft on first chase ?
god there are always people like you that instead of talking about issue and what could be causing it look for the closest perk to slap a band aid solution on it. in hope to shut any valid complaints . happened with deadhard ( just run blood echo ) old object ( play ghost face or scratch mirror myers ) camping bubba ( just do gens and dont save ) ....... some of these examples are over the top but still you get the idea
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I think Sloppy helps when people WANT to heal. Oni and Spirit and stealth Killers are examples of when the Survivors absolutely WANT to heal. It does the opposite on Killers when they don't want to heal. I tried it on Myers at one point (or Gift of Pain as an alternative) and it makes no one heal instead. That kinda devalued the entire purpose of T3 to the power they were able to complete the gens too fast because they weren't 'wasting' time on healing, and since I didn't bring Monitor, I didn't have any stealth worth mentioning.
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Sacrifice what 3 perks? I only named We´ll make it and Botany. Thats 2.
We´ll make it is currently the best healing perk in the game. Maybe try it before you judge. But complaining seems to be easier than adapting...
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you actually make a very good points. but that it is exactly the discussion we should be having, now imagine an average spirit player using good addons and 3 gen perk plus sloppy butcher. the chases would end fairly quickly due to killer power but it is also half of a gen time to get 2 people to heal each other and risk getting interrupted or just die fast anyway.
your example highlights the disparity between killers. but the healing nerf was needed but not in the way it was done we can barely get one heal out of medkits.
FYI: this is the reason i stopped complaining about survivors bringing syringe frequently in their medkits. i just played some soloq and understood it
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You are missing the point. there is a better counter to sloppy than your sacrificing 2 perks idea. All i need is a SWF or friends i can communicate with earlier and 1 boon COH.
My friends would rush the boon area and we heal faster than anything else in the game.
We are discussing the disparity this creates specifically in soloq. which is what i play mostly and im sure many people share this gameplay style. Soloq temmates tend to be selfish and bring selfish perks ( Left behind is quite common would you believe it sometimes, plus haste perks adrenaline...ect)
Your suggestion is entirely dependent on the random team i will get in soloq. hoping they would bring well make it and botany to help me not get tunneled while injured if i dont bring medkit syringe ....
i hope you understand what i am " complaining about " .
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I think the counter You're looking for is:
Don't get hit.
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No, i´m not missing the point. You complain that healing under CoH is inefficient, because you first have to find a totem, boon it, then run around in circles in the hope of someone seeing you, only to get interrupted by sloppy during that heal.
Kick the boon out and equip We´ll make it. You can keep the other 3 perks you had before. Try it for a couple of rounds and you will see that you´re more efficient at healing with We´ll make it. You don´t have to sacrifice 3 perks to healing. You CAN however speed the general healing up IF you want to improve it further.
The whole healing nerf was done to promote a less selfish healing build. Because lets face it, before the nerf, people were running SC or CoH and we just healing themselves, even when you ran around them to heal them faster.
Fact is, most survivors only want to equip perks that help them run the killer longer. But they don´t want to equip perks that help the team. I´ve had success dedicating a whole build to healing and protecting others. If thats not your cup of tea, no problem. But don´t complain that solos play bad, when you yourself refuse to make the first step by equipping a team perk like We´ll make it.
If you want change, then the best point to start is with your own build.
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His advice is solid. The current game isn't built around being able to heal yourself, you need teammates to do it. Doesn't have to be We'll Make It, Botany is also an option. But even without perks, healing with others is always going to be the right (efficent) course.
CoH sometimes gets massive value, but frequently it doesn't get much. Don't expect other survivors to rush to you just because you are in the aura, it probably wouldn't be a good strategy on their part anyway. The only time you should head toward the CoH expecting a heal is if you know a survivor is already in the area, another survivors is following you, or the whole team is injured and might be doing the same thing.
Sloppy is really strong on certain killers, like Wraith. Never heal near the hook against any high mobility killer without We'll Make It, generally avoid healing until there is a good opportunity (such as them being in a chase with someone else).
If you're bringing a medkit, bring a syringe. If the killer is running sloppy, use the charges healing teammates, use the syringe after your second unhook.
If you absolutely need to heal yourself, either bring a medkit and get used to running to far corners of the map, or bring Inner Healing.
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Not that bad, it encourages team altruism which is something even solos should focus on.
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I wouldn't mind nerf if 99 heal didn't exist.
Also there are survivors who refuse to heal and gain buff from Resilience so I don't think it's very problematic.
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it seems the majority in the discussion agrees that healing should be done by others rather than oneself.
3 problems i have with what mentioned above:
- being healed by a teammate against sloppy is not efficient as some people said here. it actually takes a long time that its better if we both just do gens with resilience and run mft hope. ( again being forced back into the meta).
- we are putting too much expectations on soloq teammates to run altruistic perks.
- the fact the syringe on medkit is acceptable now because of one perk. remember if sloppy is not in the mix healing is very fair and worth getting 2 people to do it and reset
please dont forget that spirit mains exist who run this perk with 3 gen slow down ( pair res /pop /jolt ) and very good addons. quite common killer i run into in my games btw
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i woudnt mind the hemorrhage effect to counter the 99 resilience meta. its that 25 percent slowdown that stacks up with currently slow healing nerf and lackluster ways to do it alone without relying on your team.
also isnt refusing to heal and being forced into meta MFT hope... is something we all agree need to be countered instead of encouraged
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it encourages my soloq temmates to give up on hook and fast vault lockes untildeath when they see wraith or spirit running this hit and run.
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Alternative take: Sloppy destroys a team of solos that use CoH.
Once I find the boon, I know they'll head there when injured. If I go there to interrupt, medkits get wasted and I can chase injured survivors.
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being healed by a teammate against sloppy is not efficient as some people said here. it actually takes a long time that its better if we both just do gens with resilience and run mft hope. ( again being forced back into the meta).
That's a different issue. If the question is not 'what's the best way to heal' but instead 'should we even heal or not?', then yes, sometimes not bothering to heal is the absolutely right play.
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They dont heal because healing with Sloppy Butcher wastes a lot of time, especially if the Killer can interrupt the heal.
@Topic:
I 100% agree, Sloppy Butcher is currently overtuned. IMO since they changed Hemorrhage and with the Nerf to Medkits and Healing in general, Sloppy Butcher is too good for how easy it is to apply. At the very least, it should lose Hemorrhage, I dont think that Hemorrhage and Mangled should exist at the same time, inflicted by the same Perk or Add-On (with the Exception being Gift of Pain, since 99ing would remove a good portion of the Perk).
It is also noticeable that you see Sloppy Butcher on basically every Killer who deals damage with M1s and Killers who have Add Ons which inflict Mangled often also use those.
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if sloppy isnt there then healing to reset is almost always worth it and the problem of healing goes away. i hope you can see my issue with it. but yeh that discussion you mentioned is way too big for my head to handle
would you be kind enough not to put experienced killers ideas into not so experienced fresh wraith and spirit mains. the time it takes them to learn that kind of keeps the balance of things
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Medkits aren’t useless against Sloppy. Don’t heal in an area where you can be easily interrupted. You can use add ons to give you more charges or increase the healing speed as well.
Or you could run Bond and locate a teammate that way. Using CoH to lure your teammates over is just wasting time. Look for a gen to do and if you spot a teammate on the way with Bond go and ask them to heal you.
Or just stay injured and genrush with Adrenaline.
In my experience I rarely have issues with Sloppy and all I usually bring is a med kit. One self heal is often all I need, sometimes two, but if you learn to play injured and healing up when it’s beneficial rather than dropping everything to heal up then you’ll realise that Sloppy isn’t really that big of a deal.
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you summarized it well my friend. " they dont heal because its too slow and can be interrupted " - So they bring BNP toolboxes and MFT hope and sweat gens.
Any surprise killers are complaining about gen speed even after they added 10 secs and changed lot of things for it.
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i apologize for reposting frequently, but from what you said about being comfortable being injured and doing gens. you are experienced and sadly most of the soloq teammates tend to hide in bushes and heal against legion every time they finish mending.
we are agreeing on the same thing but taking different roads to come to the same conclusion. being forced into meta is not what we should be striving for
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You don’t need to apologise for responding to replies in your own thread haha
Yes you are right that a lot of solo queue teammates are absolutely terrible and just heal up instantly which is unfortunate. And a lot of my teammates do that as well, which is why I’m ok with staying injured for the most part. Just because my team is wasting time doesn’t mean I have to as well.
And my build isn’t meta either. I usually run Blast Mine, Deja Vu, Sprint Burst, Kindred and I typically bring a med kit or toolbox. I honestly recommend anyone having difficulty with solo queue to run Kindred. It makes it SO much better. Not just to help with camping or knowing if you should go for a save, but because it gives you a ton of information as to where your teammates are and where you can expect to find them after and where you can expect the killer to end up. It making playing injured or games with bad teammates a lot more manageable.
I will admit it is difficult to get used to not being healed up instantly, but after a few games you’ll realise that playing injured and spending as much time as you can on gens makes games much easier. And often I’m not even injured that long because one of my teammates finds me and heals me anyway :)
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healing is all about timing. if you heal at good timing and good positioning than slower healing is not that impressive because survivor has a major surplus in action speed if they optimize their action speed and looping tactics.
soloq lacks timing because inherently, it is super messy since nobody knows where all survivors are so pathing to get healed is longer and then you have sloppy butcher that makes interaction also take longer. pair that with teammates that sometimes completely fail chase at awful times and you get games where you lose purely off altruistic actions. swf can much better play macro game by healing at the correct times. soloq heals at risky times and tends crumble on healing pressure very easily.
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yes you kind of rephrased the same opinion i had i think. so im gonna ask you abotu something.
What in your opinion is the problem here ? Soloq ? is sloppy butcher even a problem to begin with or associating it with soloq is the issue ?
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Somebody who reads this forum, reddit or such will become expert in theory in no time anyways. It's also a double-edged sword: inexperienced survivors will also learn advanced techniques and how to play around them.
I indeed have some second thoughts talking about advanced tricks and tactics (not in this case - this one is intermediate at best), but I remind myself that only a tiny fraction of dbd players actually read instead of watching flashy videos, so they get my unfiltered opinion out of respect.
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As a solo, I like taking Autodidact atm in the Sloppy Butcher meta. Having the longer healing times means more chances of skill checks, which means more stacks, and completely bypasses the weakness.
I also like the We'll Make It/Guardian combination as well, as that makes Sloppy kinda a moot point.
So I'm not really too bent out of shape by Sloppy atm... I feel like there are perks causing me way more trouble in SoloQ atm, such as Ultimate Weapon.
Ofc I'm refusing to run MFT, cause I'm not a scumbag and I don't wanna develop bad looping habits... so UW probably disproportionately affects me compared to others.
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So if the question is: "Is sloppy too powerful?"
Yeah, it probably is. As a killer you are basically guaranteed to get a lot of value out of it, it doesn't require any particular playstyle, and interrupting a heal can be devastating to the survivors. Given how frequently it appears I'd expect it to be in line for a nerf at some point down the road.
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i think ive been let down by autodiadect more than my soloq team in the past years. too much RNG
do we know how much is the pick rate for sloppy at the moment ? i see it all the time as well.
Also i ve seen some people in the discussion agree that sloppy is overtuned especially against soloq. does anyone else think the opossite and that sloppy shoudnt be changed and its fair against soloq team and swf alike ?
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Sure. "XYZ perk butchers solo queue" always works.
Because there is no perk, that will affect SWFs as much as solos.
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i understand what you mean. but we are discussing a perk that affect soloq more than SWF to the point where its problematic and unfair. ( any perk can affect soloq more than SWF but is it unfair problematic or its fine and fairly balanced )
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Going off Nightlight stats, Sloppy is used in 13.12% of killer builds, although I certainly see it more often than 1-2 times every 10 matches!
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I disagree, though only in the cause. I definitely believe that Sloppy is affecting solo queue games too much, but that's not because the perk itself is the problem, it's because people still refuse to run healing perks or consider healing their teammates any kind of priority.
There are so many ways you can deal with Sloppy Butcher in solo queue. Wanna heal yourself? Inner Healing is the top dog, but you can build into medkits as well if you want. You'll need some supporting perks, but it's doable.
But healing yourself isn't the right call in this situation. It'll take too long, unless you have a charge of IH. What you want to be doing is healing your teammates, and having them heal you. Now, you can bring something like Leader to have them heal you faster, but honestly, default healing speed through Sloppy isn't too bad when it's altruistic. What you want to bring are things like Botany Knowledge, We'll Make It, and even Autodidact to heal your teammates quickly, so that when they heal you it's still time saved overall.
TL;DR you can and should consider your build more carefully and seriously give thought to running healing + teammate info perks. They're extremely strong and bypass almost all forms of anti-heal that aren't the Broken status effect.
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I see this perk every match. We'll make it used to help a lot, and you can even raise slugged people up really fast with it.
However, yeah it's a bit ridiculous, it doesn't require any skill to use and it's fairly powerful. Instead of nerfing it I rather see healing buffed. Medkits are basically all brown medkits now, that's just silly. Makes no real difference, healing others with them is okay, but what about ourselves? Ugh.
If they don't want to do that, then introduce something else. Idk, I'm not a creative dev. :) What do I know?
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associated soloq issues. you are correct in sloppy butcher being soloq stomper. overly effective vs soloq, not effective enough vs strong teams(swf). killer would need like another perk that add +20% -healing in addition to mangled for swf to have hard-time healing.
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Just what we need another forum user that intends to open threads complaining about every killer perk and how it effects solos. News flash every perk effects solo more. This is how it's been since the dawn of time. Problem is people take this game way to serious these days.
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I have used to run Second Wind to counter Sloppy Butcher; One time bothering with longer heal is fine if it activates the perk that autoheals me afterwards. It's very satisfying to get unhooked, head towards the generator and get healed while repairing the generator.. Hehe..
So, unless you're charging Second Wind, don't bother healing.. Unless Thanatophobia is at play, but the priority shall be taken based on the killer; If it's Spirit or some M1, do bother with healing, I'd say.. Otherwise don't. You do get the idea.
Nowadays, I do simply move on if I end up getting butchered by Sloppy Butcher.. My loadout focuses on tunneling, because that's what the entire killer playerbase seems to be focusing onto. If I can punish killers for playing in such an unfun way, I will gladly do that.
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Now that you mention it, Inner Healing also works great against Sloppy.
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Survivors with legitimate abilities will give up on recovery if recovery is difficult, cut the risk, and then work on repairing the generator.
They have solid preliminary movements, so they won't easily receive a killer blow, and they will lengthen the chase time, choose a place where they will be down, and try to hang in a place where they won't get in the way of other survivors.
This is an effective method against Sloppy Butcher, and anyone who understands the game remembers it as an option.
This is because survivors will be more likely to go down without recovery, but the generator repair speed will not decrease.
If it keeps knocking you down, it's either a skill issue or someone had a chance to heal while being attacked and missed it.
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Oh absolutely!
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Ill just copy paste my reply to another user because thats how much thought you put in the dicussion we are having
"" i understand what you mean. but we are discussing a perk that affect soloq more than SWF to the point where its problematic and unfair. ( any perk can affect soloq more than SWF but is it unfair problematic or its fine and fairly balanced ) ""
I also really love how each person has their own way of dealing with sloppy in soloq. but i notice most of the perks mentioned rely heavely on RNG or many prequesit. For example: Autodiadact ( RNG) inner healing ( using time to find a boon to cleanse, then finding a locker only to be injured by a cloacked wraiht and doing it all over again which is kind of throwing for your team on gen pressure ) second wind ( if the killer hits your borrowed time might make things difficult).
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i was trying to correct my reply but somehow it disapeared.
but i think the majority agrees its overtuned after the healing nerfs. but the issue is how on earth do you begin tweaking it so its not that oppressive against average soloq but still be useful to killer that need it ? i legitimately have no idea
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When you make something harder to do, people likely want to do it less. Encourage is to make it easier so people do it more.
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to add to your point it also pushes people into the gen rush meta and haste resilience.. you know.... the meta
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The problem there is that altruistic healing specifically was made easier. Even the two changes in 6.7.0 - medkits and Circle of Healing - made altruistic healing easier and more effective.
Players right now have a ton of tools that make altruistic healing much easier, quicker, and beneficial. The problem is that people refuse to use them, not that they aren't being encouraged to use them.
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Also i ve seen some people in the discussion agree that sloppy is overtuned especially against soloq. does anyone else think the opossite and that sloppy shoudnt be changed and its fair against soloq team and swf alike ?Eh, I've already said I think sloppy could use some type of nerf, but compared to some other perks its not that huge of a difference between SWF and soloq. SWFs can bring a dedicated healer and do resets, but that has a benefit with normal healing as well. They suffer just as much from an interrupted heal.
Yeah, SWFs still have an advantage, but this isn't like the perks that make survivors blind to certain things that SWFs can just outright ignore.
inner healing ( using time to find a boon to cleanse, then finding a locker only to be injured by a cloacked wraiht and doing it all over again which is kind of throwing for your team on gen pressure )If you manage to occupy that much of the Wraiths time you aren't throwing. If the rest of your team isn't doing gens, they're the problem (which, in soloq, frequently happens).
A bigger problem with inner healing that if multiple people bring it you quickly run out of totems.
Hemorrhage could be turned way down. If it dropped at a much slower rate, like a kicked gen, there would still be a reason to try and finish the heal. The killer would still get value, survivor time wasted, but it wouldn't be such a devastating impact.
2nd option: split it into two perks, one for the hemorrhage, one for the mangled, but also make each slightly stronger. When I first encountered the perk as a new killer I was so surprised you got two good powers with a single perk.
3rd option: proposed by a few people on here, make perks like resurgence, reactive healing, and solidarity cancel out the mangled/hemorrhage effect. Even if the killer isn't running Sloppy, none of these perks are that great, but sloppy absolutely destroys them. Giving them the power to provide additional protection would make them potentially worthwhile.
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I think the extended time to heal should be fixed by 4sec, not 25%.
Self healing is rare enough, and with 24sec already, adding 6sec extra is too much, while multiple healing perks can make a healing take 10sec, and the extra time is only 2.5sec
With the extended time is fixed by 4sec. It would extend more time against healing build, while its not overkill against self healing.
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correct me if iam wrong but the only alturistic healing buff that came with the healing nerf patch was boon COH going back to 100percent and aura reading on injured temmates. the medkits already had those effects and nothing else changed ?
Thank you @crogers271 for taking time to read my in between replies as well. as sign of respect i shall address all the suggestion you have here:
Hemorrhage could be turned way down. If it dropped at a much slower rate, like a kicked gen, there would still be a reason to try and finish the heal. The killer would still get value, survivor time wasted, but it wouldn't be such a devastating impact.
I love this suggestion the most. this solves the biggest issue for everything mentioned before as a complaints in this perk. the main reason people wont go for the heal because its slow and can be reverted/ interrupted.
2nd option: split it into two perks, one for the hemorrhage, one for the mangled, but also make each slightly stronger. When I first encountered the perk as a new killer I was so surprised you got two good powers with a single perk.
while i totally agree this perk has 2 strong effect together like the same problem with MFT. i think if we split the effects and buff them it will send the problem to other killers and powers. for example addons that can inflict this on huntress or Xeno it would be like shuffling the issue around.
3rd option: proposed by a few people on here, make perks like resurgence, reactive healing, and solidarity cancel out the mangled/hemorrhage effect. Even if the killer isn't running Sloppy, none of these perks are that great, but sloppy absolutely destroys them. Giving them the power to provide additional protection would make them potentially worthwhile
I think this suggestion should be a must no matter what the change to sloppy or healing would be. its crazy that you sacrifice a perk slot for one of these and end up useless for the entire match quite frequently.
My brother in christ, I have absolutly no clue what you talking about could you please be more gentle with the numbers i only have 5 brain cells and they cant all work together at the same time.
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The numbers on medkits were raised, iirc. Either way, the changes made the medkits comparatively more effective at healing your teammates, which is pretty clear encouragement to use them that way.
Everything else that already made healing your teammates speedy and effective wasn't changed, which means that they're still extremely worth running.
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depends if survivors brought self care or not
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i want to try and remind you about the pressure killer generates is from injuries, generator hooks and chases, currently selfhealing takes too long. going around to find a survivor wastes a lot of gen pressure for the survivors but the reward is fine.
But when sloppy butcher is included in that same scenario. then it becomes a horribly bad idea. you risk running into the killer injured, you risk a very slow heal by a temmate than can be interupted and cancel the whole progress. which in return just brings survivors to the conclusion bring toolboxes and sweat gens then get adrenaline. THAT is so unhealthy and pushes us to the meta like i said many times.
Finally to address your point of the game encouraging altruism is true and you are correct. but that is a good thing to do by survivors when the is equal value to the time spent. with wraith spirit wesker and such( yes weskers use it blows my mind too) it is not worth the time or risk...with the hemorrhage status effect mainly
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