"anti camp" system has done nothing for the game
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I see them in 20% of my matches where I hadn’t seen one in the 3 months before. Guess why that is?
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Baseline aura reading? Bond's right there, it's a free perk
Oh, did they remove the perk slot cost, then?
And did they make it possible to equip it to someone else's perk loadout too?
Internal communication? There's an entire hand signal emote system that was meant to be used in place of verbal communication.
Oh yes, because 'beckon' and 'point' are an excellent way to set up a strategy of 'I'll distract the killer and you go for the hook'. Great comms, I don't know why no one has ever thought of that one.
Stack that on top of the player created signal language
Quick question: Does hands-up on the hook mean 'killer is camping' or 'come rescue me'?
It's not as direct and potent as VC, but the game was designed with non-verbal communication being the main way we interacted.
The game is built for teamwork
These are literally mutually exclusive. And if you somehow believe that the game isn't built specifically to isolate individual survivors, I don't know what to tell you.
There is a huge gulf between 'the game has the opportunity for teamwork' and 'the game is built for teamwork'.
You want all this info, but the game is already given you most of what you want if you'd learn to read the HUD
Mindreading is not a standard skill set. When another survivor lets go of a gen, you still have no information other than that that survivor let go of a gen. Until they do something else, you have no relevant info.
And guess what? If they move to make a rescue and the killer is proxy camping, that doesn't show on the HUD.
The HUD is something everyone has access to by default and Bond only requires one perk slot out 16 total slots spread across 4 players.
No, it requires four perk slots. Teamwork is not a one-way street.
And keep in mind that all of this is to facilitate killers being able to win by doing the absolute bare minimum. For all this talk of 'Just use telepathy, 4head, skill issue', killers are deathly allergic to actually having to play the game.
Maybe, instead of camping, if you dislike actually playing the game that much, I don't know...
Quit?
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Hag is too complicated for people to use. And it’s called a trend. Not every camper used to play Bubba but plenty did. You see the same thing happening now with Deathslinger. Just like pre-patch more and more people were playing Skull Merchant to 3-gen. I haven’t seen a replacement for that one but sure someone will figure it out soon enough.
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I don't camp and I have quit the game recent, but that has nothing to do with camping. I quit playing because I think the devs are making horrible design decisions around Skull Merchant and just in general the game as a whole right now. AFC was not one of those bad decisions though.
Teamwork isn't a one-way street, but again it bears pointing out that's not a mechanical issue and thus can not be solved by frontloading survivors with basekit versions of perks and stacks of new game mechanics or features. If you don't want to accept that then that's a you problem.
I have a lot of issues with the game and have for years, but I've never been so far up my own butt as to think that having bad teammates could be solved by just removing any and all difficulty by defanging my opponent or giving myself every mechanical advantage possible without needing to give something in exchange. That's not how you make an interesting pvp game.
Say what you want about killers, but in this particular case you're the only one being unreasonable. Proxy camping and generally defensive play is so hated in this game, but it's been a part of the game since day one and the devs have went out of their way to make sure it remains possible. While I currently don't like the current direction things are going, I know they aren't stupid when it comes to actually understanding what the actual problematic things are in regards to general game balance.
You're trying to dictate to people how they should play and since you know that will never work you're wanting to bend the game to your whims via taking this position. You seem like the one who dislikes playing the game rather than me.
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Agreed. It shouldn't even be a thing.
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Teamwork isn't a one-way street, but again it bears pointing out that's not a mechanical issue and thus can not be solved by frontloading survivors with basekit versions of perks and stacks of new game mechanics or features. If you don't want to accept that then that's a you problem.
But we aren't talking about teamwork.
We're talking about a killer staring at a hook.
YOU are the one making this into a chat about teamwork. I am of the opinion that camping should be addressed directly, you think it needs to be done with teamwork, even though the game is explicitly built -against- teamwork.
I have a lot of issues with the game and have for years, but I've never been so far up my own butt as to think that having bad teammates could be solved by just removing any and all difficulty by defanging my opponent or giving myself every mechanical advantage possible without needing to give something in exchange. That's not how you make an interesting pvp game.
This is incredibly rich when it's brought up in defence of CAMPING.
You know, the thing that removes any and all difficulty and defangs your opponents and gives yourself every mechanical advantage possible without needing to give anything in exchange?
It's good that you say that that's not how you make an interesting PvP game, because then you might understand why camping has been considered a problem for all these years.
Say what you want about killers, but in this particular case you're the only one being unreasonable
So you're claiming that survivors should dump a quarter of their build variety, check if the killer's camping, and then telepathically communicate with total strangers on the internet to set up a strategy for a rescue without any room for miscommunication and no tools to facilitate said communication, all within 60 seconds of the target being hooked...
To offset the killer standing still and staring at a hook.
And -I- am the unreasonable one?
You're trying to dictate to people how they should play
No, I'm dictating that they should play, period. Instead of investing their time in ensuring that no one gets to engage with the game.
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Proxy camping is still playing the game. Defensive play is still play whether you like it or not. Facecamping wasn't playing the game and it has been addressed and now it's on you to learn how to circumvent the non-deviant defensive play. Period.
Facecamping took away survivor options entirely, but proxy camping does not it just limits them which is last I checked the entire point of defensive play. You're not defanged whatsoever just limited and may need to yes, expend precious resources such as a perk slot to mitigate the potential. Killers have to make that same decision when it comes to builds and they can only make it once per trial. Across all survivors that decision can be made up to 16 times and realistically only 1 of you needs to make it once to get the effect. If you want the information put on the perk.
You are trying to dictate what is and is not acceptable play based on your own preferences even if the face of that fact the game has been purposely allowed to maintain the option of proxying while removing the ability to face camp. You are the unreasonable one.
Survivors don't have to gain telepathy, but they should learn game awareness via shock horror, using the tools they have access to. So many survivors still don't know how to read the HUD and don't even try to pay attention to it when it does a ton a heavy lifting for you on both the condition of your teammates as well as the general things the killer could be engaged in. It tells you when someone is being chased and when they aren't being chased with relatively good accuracy. If someone isn't being chased and someone is on the hook and you've not encountered the killer's TR for a while you can guess the killer is probably near the hooked survivor.
Camping has issues, but the worst offending issue is now mechanically far less viable than before. To completely remove camping in its entirety would require a complete change to the killer objective which also necessitate a complete overhaul a lot of killer perks, some powers, and potentially map design. While I want the game to see drastic overhauls in some areas doing that would be better left to just making a new game due to the scale of work involved.
That still won't truly solve your problem even if it happened though because again, your teammates will be what they are no matter what mechanical changes or advantages are added to the game. Killers will just find another way to facilitate defensive play because to remove every single defensive strategy from a pvp game is exactly how the game dies as no one wants to play a game where they aren't allowed to defend against their opponent or only allowed to approach the game in a singular way no matter the circumstance.
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Proxy camping is still playing the game. Defensive play is still play whether you like it or not. Facecamping wasn't playing the game and it has been addressed and now it's on you to learn how to circumvent the non-deviant defensive play. Period.
No, it hasn't been addressed. Because someone standing 11 meters away versus 2 meters away is not a functional difference.
Killers have to make that same decision when it comes to builds and they can only make it once per trial. Across all survivors that decision can be made up to 16 times and realistically only 1 of you needs to make it once to get the effect. If you want the information put on the perk.
I don't know when you quit but I'm pretty sure both killers and survivors have only four perk slots, not 1 and 16. And no, you still need 4 perks to get the information you're banking on.
You are trying to dictate what is and is not acceptable play based on your own preferences even if the face of that fact the game has been purposely allowed to maintain the option of proxying while removing the ability to face camp. You are the unreasonable one.
I'm the unreasonable one because BHVR is literally flawless and never makes mistakes, ever. I'm sure that's a very reasonable position to take.
Survivors don't have to gain telepathy, but they should learn game awareness via shock horror, using the tools they have access to.
The tools being: The HUD and literally nothing else.
So many survivors still don't know how to read the HUD and don't even try to pay attention to it when it does a ton a heavy lifting for you on both the condition of your teammates as well as the general things the killer could be engaged in. It tells you when someone is being chased and when they aren't being chased with relatively good accuracy.
Congrats, none of that helps if the killer is camping, because that's indistinct from the killer seeking.
If someone isn't being chased and someone is on the hook and you've not encountered the killer's TR for a while you can guess the killer is probably near the hooked survivor.
The problem is:
for a while
That's too late. You're on a strict time limit to get this stuff done, on top of everything else.
Camping has issues, but the worst offending issue is now mechanically far less viable than before.
Is it? Because it still requires tremendous investment from survivors to counter it, while requiring zilch from the killer. And if the survivors mess it up even the slightest bit, it's likely to snowball into a 4K on the spot.
Killers will just find another way to facilitate defensive play because to remove every single defensive strategy from a pvp game is exactly how the game dies as no one wants to play a game where they aren't allowed to defend against their opponent or only allowed to approach the game in a singular way no matter the circumstance.
And a game consisting of only defensive plays is no fun for anyone either. That's the problem.
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The game doesn't only consist of defensive play in that regard there is not problem.
The killer is still engaging with the game when in proxy, but they are doing so from a dominant position. Yes, you will be expected to work under less than optimal conditions to circumvent the dominance of a proxy camp. Yes, it requires players to act in a coordinated manner and the game gives you limited tools to coordinate. It's on you to figure out how to make that work because as I keep saying just giving you more things will not improve your experience solo play.
Each survivor has 4 perk slots and every game requires 4 survivors to start and 1 killer. 4 x 4 equals 16 as opposed to 4 x 1 which equals 4. If even one person brings Bond at the very least that person can move in a more coordinated fashion with their teammates when I was playing survivor having it made a huge difference. I've only been out of the game for 2 weeks at this point so I know that hasn't changed.
If you want to have exact info on what the killer is doing at all times then you're gonna be outta luck. You get a decent amount of the time if you want to run perks like OoO, Alert, or Wiretap. That's the thing though you need to prioritize what you want in your build and if you don't want to run info perks then you're not getting the benefit of info and the game shouldn't change to just give it to you for free.
BHVR is far from flawless and I never claimed they were flawless so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The way you're approaching this makes you seem unreasonable and it's not because you disagree with me. It's because what you want is just literally bad for the game.
If 11 meters is not functionally different than 2 meters then what is? What's the exact range in which the killer should be allowed to contest a save then? We know 1-2 is nearly impossible and you seem to think 11 is still nearly impossible so what's the measurement in which contesting a hook is fair for both sides? What's the number that makes sense for 1 killer to be able to engage in defensive play against 1-3 players when trying to progress their objective?
Tell me what you consider good defensive play in this game since proxy camping is such a scummy thing in your eyes. What can a singular killer do that serves as a reasonable and proper defense against up to 3 opponents.
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The game doesn't only consist of defensive play in that regard there is not problem.
It does if the killer wants it to. That's the problem.
The killer is still engaging with the game when in proxy, but they are doing so from a dominant position. Yes, you will be expected to work under less than optimal conditions to circumvent the dominance of a proxy camp. Yes, it requires players to act in a coordinated manner and the game gives you limited tools to coordinate. It's on you to figure out how to make that work because as I keep saying just giving you more things will not improve your experience solo play.
We don't need to be given anything. Camping should just not be a thing. The game should not allow a player to stop engaging with the game, and in turn, force everyone else to stop engaging as well.
Each survivor has 4 perk slots and every game requires 4 survivors to start and 1 killer. 4 x 4 equals 16 as opposed to 4 x 1 which equals 4. If even one person brings Bond at the very least that person can move in a more coordinated fashion with their teammates when I was playing survivor having it made a huge difference. I've only been out of the game for 2 weeks at this point so I know that hasn't changed.
But you said the killer only has one opportunity and the survivors have sixteen. Neither of which are correct.
If you want to have exact info on what the killer is doing at all times then you're gonna be outta luck. You get a decent amount of the time if you want to run perks like OoO, Alert, or Wiretap. That's the thing though you need to prioritize what you want in your build and if you don't want to run info perks then you're not getting the benefit of info and the game shouldn't change to just give it to you for free.
So survivors have to pick up these perks on every single game on the off chance that the killer can't be arsed to play the game, in order to pull off a difficult gambit that hands the killer the win if it goes wrong.
You talk about the removal of strategies being a problem but you don't seem to pick up on the fact that these kinds of band-aid perk solutions do the exact same thing to survivors. Pre-6.1, there was almost NO variety in perk builds for survivors precisely because of this issue.
BHVR is far from flawless and I never claimed they were flawless so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
That's what an appeal to authority is. Your argument is that the game is purposely keeping camping in, therefor it is unreasonable to argue that it should change. This argument ONLY holds merit if you believe that BHVR is beyond reproach. Otherwise, it's worthless.
If 11 meters is not functionally different than 2 meters then what is? What's the exact range in which the killer should be allowed to contest a save then? We know 1-2 is nearly impossible and you seem to think 11 is still nearly impossible so what's the measurement in which contesting a hook is fair for both sides? What's the number that makes sense for 1 killer to be able to engage in defensive play against 1-3 players when trying to progress their objective?
Because the functional difference is in what the killer is doing. If they actually go after a survivor, that's fine. But if they sit on the hooked survivor with the express intent to deny any attempt to unhook, that's not. And I don't care at what distance they do this.
Tell me what you consider good defensive play in this game since proxy camping is such a scummy thing in your eyes. What can a singular killer do that serves as a reasonable and proper defense against up to 3 opponents.
When I hook a survivor, I go looking for the next. Along the way, I will keep an eye out for anyone trying to get a rescue. I just want to get downs and hooks, not prevent unhooks. And I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the same of other players.
Getting hooks, over preventing unhooks.
It's because what you want is just literally bad for the game.
You've made like 4 or 5 claims about what I want without even asking.
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You prefer getting hooks over preventing unhooks and that's cool. Some people prefer to be defensive and prevent unhooks over going for more hooks. Both have merits and are valid ways to play under the current system.
You've actually been very clear that you do not believe killers should play in a defensive style and that you don't want to use your perk slots on perks that would actively help you with the situation you don't like. So it seems pretty clear that you don't want camping of any sort, not have to use perk slots or learn how to deal with a proxy scenario, and more direct innate info on what the killer is or is not doing.
I clearly don't think BHVR is beyond reproach, but I also don't believe removing proxy camping is good for the game and that currently it seems like the devs don't feel like it should go either. If they change tac and completely remove it I'm going to call them out for making another bad decision in the same vain as the way they handled the Skull Merchant rework. While I'm not a hyper defensive player I believe that people who are should have that ability to do so especially in a game as limited as this. Not everyone wants to chase constantly and hate that the community often seems to only value chasing and trash people who don't play in a chase centric manner.
Survivor meta being extremely stale hasn't really changed, the current meta has almost cycled around to just being the 2017 meta all over again. So, as far as I can tell survivors haven't lost any strategies simply due to swapping out a few perks since by and large they've been using the same ones forever. There was low variety pre 6.1 and there is still low variety post 6.1 because build variety is far and away the least valued thing on either side of this game even when it could literally improve folks odds. Do you have to pick up the perks every game? No. Should you at the very least put one of them sometimes? Yes.
I want people to actually just play the game they have and really learn how to make it work for them rather than constantly throwing a hissy fit and begging for changes. With exception of accessibility features it would be nice if folks stopped asking for major one sided changes to the game for a while. Like the AFC change hasn't even had time to breathe and folks to just play the game yet y'all are already wanting to mess with killers again. AFC was necessary, but damn it sucks constantly seeing folks trying to push for more heavy handed restrictions on the way people play the game.
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You've actually been very clear that you do not believe killers should play in a defensive style and that you don't want to use your perk slots on perks that would actively help you with the situation you don't like. So it seems pretty clear that you don't want camping of any sort, not have to use perk slots or learn how to deal with a proxy scenario, and more direct innate info on what the killer is or is not doing.
I don't think it's good for the game that survivors are obligated to use perks as stop-gap measures for flaws in game design. Imagine if scratch marks were a killer perk, that'd be the same kind of issue.
I don't care about info on what the killer is doing, that is something you spun up.
I clearly don't think BHVR is beyond reproach
Then why did you call me unreasonable for disagreeing with them?
Do you have to pick up the perks every game? No. Should you at the very least put one of them sometimes? Yes.
Yes, you do need to pick them up every game. At the very least, it needs to be so ubiquitous that it pushes killers off. But that's never going to happen because Bond isn't going to magically fix the problem and render camping non-viable. For that to work, you'd need to have an extremely harsh punishment, like what DS was to tunnelling before it was randomly axed.
Bond doesn't do that. It may facilitate an attempt at counterplay, but does not guarantee its success. Failure to execute the counterplay will likely result in a 4K, too.
All of this, I must once again point out, to counter a killer standing still and staring at a hook.
I want people to actually just play the game
Then stop arguing in favour of a 'strategy' whose primary goal is to ensure people DON'T get to play.
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Its a solid introduction actually. It was implemented to stop face camping, yes face camping. Works like a treat in those situations
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Phew!
Was worried I missed the cringe!
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Literally I would die 10 times over if I could ever find a slinger, lol
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...your lucky? Literally, LITERALLY the only time I've ever seen a slinger is when I play him once in a blue moon
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Did the remove the feature. I just played in a trial where a michael myers was camping the hook at there was no bar whatesoever.
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