Let's talk about Unsportsmanlike conduct and how it treats players for "killing themselves on hook".
Comments
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Imagine you queued up in a game of DotA. The enemy team starts grouping up after 10 minutes and starts pushing towers as a team to start taking objectives. Your team completely ignores this and just keeps on farming. 10 more minutes go by, the same thing. You are trying to defend objectives, but your team won't, they keep ignoring it, you keep pleading with them to help. 10 more minutes go by, more of the same. 10 more minutes go by, you are now 40 minutes into the game, your team is ignoring all the objectives and just passively farming and avoiding the enemy while they push into your base. 10 more minutes pass, the enemy is finally in your base and your team is still ignoring them. 5 more minutes pass, and the game ends and you lose.
This kind of thing can happen in DotA as well, and again i mention, a game of DotA even in this scenario can often last for over an hour and yet you still have to stick it out, deal with the team that you were given, and attempt to overcome the enemy team. And, if you don't, if you rage at your team, cuss them out, yell at them, feed (suicide into the enemy team), or otherwise grief your teammates, you will get a harsh ban for doing so.
So again, what makes DBD so special that allows you to ######### over your team and ragequit just because something isn't going your way. Especially when, again, a game of DBD at most is lasting probably 10-15 minutes, and a game of DotA can last well over an hour. Are you saying that you can't deal with 10 minutes of having teammates who are not playing in your preferred way when people in other games have to deal with it for over an hour?
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You literally can, again this has been mentioned MULTIPLE times in this thread
- DotA
- League of Legends
- Counterstrike
- Rainbow Six
- Call of Duty
- Overwatch
- Valorant
All of these games will harshly punish you if you queue up for a game and:
- Quit before it is finished
- Harass your team
- Grief your team
- Intentionally give kills to the enemy team
- And otherwise not actually playing the game.
So for the millionth time, what makes DBD so special that you are allowed to ######### over your teammates because you don't like something? The only explanation anyone has given is "because asymmetrical" without actually explaining WHY asymmetrical games are so special that you still can say "######### you teammates i'm out" and just ragequit/suicide into the enemy. There is no logical explanation anyone can give other than "i should be allowed to be a selfish #########" for that type of behavior.
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Thats a BS answer and you know it, again looking at other games. Does someone playing as invoker in dota give you the right to just leave the game because you can't handle all the particle effects? If the game is giving someone such problems that is a fundamental problem with the game itself that:
A) the developers need to address
B) still does not give you the right to leave the game.
If you have a disability such that you can't play against those killers, then what you need to be doing is playing the killer role, where you can avoid those characters, or playing with friends in KYF and setting up games where people aren't allowed to play those killers. Or, simply not playing the game. None of this gives you the right to say "######### you" to your teammates and leave the game. And if it does, you need to toughen up and take the DC penalty, so that your teammates get a bot. Those killers mentioned are rare to see, and if you just DC when you see them and give your team a bot, then you'll rarely ever let your penalty get past the 5 minute mark.
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If DC-ers leave the game, it's only a good thing.
Less people will have unfun (miserable) matches.
It similar to cheaters, in this matter.
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I agree that it's a problem that survivor players can leave the match early on and basically destroy their team's chances. The only argument that really moves me is the one where people can't play against one specific killer because of the VFX -- and I agree that that's a problem, too. But if the killer comes up rarely, maybe the answer is to DC against them?
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Clearly you don't have any idea on how the game is mechanically done and you are spreading nonsence.
Overwatch, CoD, Battlefield, Battlefront and other games that have an ingame system that allows someone in queue to ENTER an active match and REPLACE a disconnected player any moment. That is why these games do NOT have issues in casual/normal gamemodes where someone can freely disconnect with no DC penalty (or the penalty exists but it's not noticeable).
Take any other online game where a team fights against team or other PvP gameplay examples. If you can NOT be replaced by an active actual real life player, this is where the whole banning process begins and EULA takes place.
Every online game will be competitive, because that's the nature of all ONLINE games. Doesn't matter if it's 1v1, 1v10, 5v100, the purpose of a match and main goal is to win by working together, if possible, and it depends on different gamemodes. Some games have competitive queues, some games have casual/fun/trolling gamemodes, custom servers.
Dead by Daylight does NOT have any ranked queues, the whole queueing process is within ONE queue that has both casual and competitive players in it. If you are talking about how the game is not competitive at all, why then having queue timers, hidden MMR, rewards for special ranks, rank resets (I know ranks mean nothing, but they were a thing before the introduction of MMR system). And, as I understand correctly, the game EULA has same rules of how the experience in matches should treated. So players in general should follow the End User Licence Agreement, Ban/Suspencion policy and other documents they agreed to follow upong entering the game their very first time and clicking onto "I agree" button.
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Life is a difficult thing. I get when someone dies once on purpose 5 seconds into the match after being hooked, but I've heard so many "awww, it's bubba, I'm gonna skip this match" or saw enough post match lobby messages where players, who self killed themselves or disconnected literally confirmed in a post match lobby that they've done that ON PURPOSE. That's like claiming that you've commited a crime in front of dozens of people outside of your house.
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Now, there are three examples of this self killing on hook:
1) real life issue happened, yeah, sure, no problem, we all can be in this situation but it doesn't mean your real life issues lead up to 1hour penalty. If your life is so inconsistant then simply don't go into online gaming until you fix your issues or be in a full party that agrees on playing with you on your terms
2) the player is a troll and simply wants to troll and ruin matches on purpose. Sure, but by early selfklling like that at 5 gens only because he/she doesn't like X,Y,Z killer/map/perk questions me about the player choice of playing this game and queueing into an actual match
3) the player really wanted to have 4% of an ingame mechanic to work or have special quests/perks to do so.
In example 1, it's hard to trace the real problem, but a temporary ban with warning like "sorry, you disconnect a lot, please rethink" can be a workaround. Noone is against real life issues, but if you are defending real life and you disconnect due to real life issues like a lot, why would you even go into an online game. Rare situations of real life issues? Sure, no problem. Constant issues? Please do not be here (in game) then and better fix your life.
In example 2, these players do it all the time, their overall stats are so bad, like leaving%, self killing themselves on hook%, how many seconds was the chase overall. Trolling on paper can be seen if you look deeply into someone's stats but we, as players, do not have such possibility.
I example 3, it can be seen like in very rare situations, it's not common, the player can be also new.
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Overall - all the situations can be reviewed by humans in every situation about this whole self killing on hook only if you spend enough time and resources into looking in every situation individually, but since there has been no real punishment for that here, and self killing while hiding behind "the luck" mechanic make the situation even worse where players abuse gameplay to avoid legal punishment. It can change only if developers themselves consider rethinking about this whole concept. Until then - we have to live with it.
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The game can adapt to certain illnesess by the developers making changes to the sources.
Players might not want to adapt to your illnesses, and it's completely in their right.
Again: Medical illness should not give you a permission to breake the rules of all players.
"Oh we're playing against Clown, sorry guys I have motion sickness, so I'm out, good luck!" - Some players will say: "Oh it's ok, don't hurt yourself". But other players can freely say: "Why are you playing this game, if you have a motion sickness then? I don't want to depip because of your sickness, so... *Report*".
And they are not in the wrong here imo. Your sickness should not interfere with other players goals.
IRL ofc it will be different, but in the game it's not. You will be treated the same as a healthy person (as someone else).
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The best part about these?
In example 1, if someone is having a real life issue they need to deal with, instead of killing themselves on the hook, which can take a few minutes, delaying them needing to do the real life thing, they should DC. Will they get a penalty? Yeah. But if they are dealing with a real life thing, its probably gonna take them more than a minute to go deal with, so they deal with that thing, come back, and the penalty is gone. If the penalty is so long that they come back and they are still penalized, then they have show a repeated pattern of either leaving games for illegitimate reasons, or that "real life" happens alot. Which, as you mention, if it is happening so much that you are having to quit multiple games a day, you probably need to get your priorities straight and stop playing online games.
Even League of legends points this out in leaver system:
You get an emergency call, your internet drops, your power cuts out… We understand that sometimes life happens and a leave is unavoidable, but the impact on your fellow players remains the same regardless of intention. That's why we start with a warning and gradually ascend through larger penalties. Yes, it's possible for the system to issue a penalty after leaving just a game or two, but it's also possible to re-enter the normal queue after waiting only a few minutes before five games. We believe this minor inconvenience to unintentional leavers is a fair price for discouraging would-be chronic quitters, and we hope you agree and understand.
If you're dropping out mid-game as a result of technical difficulties, try finding a solution on our tech troubleshooting page. If that still doesn't cut it, contact us directly with a ticket and we'll see what we can do to help.
Like, definitely, yeah, it happens, and that's why the penalty starts small. But if you show a REPEAT PATTERN of behavior then you get punished. Because at the end of the day, yes, it happens, but you are STILL screwing over your team.
For example 2. Well, we don't want those types of players in the game to begin with, so they get banned, and everyone's life gets better, win/win.
For example 3 such a system could easily check this by figuring out how new they are. DBD knows how many games you have played, or how many hours you have or what you have unlocked. Personally i think they should do away with the mechanic entirely, but if they are so keen on keeping it, its not that complicated to detect if the player did that, that they are new, and then give them a popup message explaining how what they did was not correct, and guide them to the tutorial to show them how to play the game.
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No, I don't. I much rather the game to have no bots to be honest
Bots are broken and I already had a bunch of games that were lost because a bot did something stupid
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This just shows that you're taking this way too seriously.
This is a video ganme for entertainment, this is not a contract, this is not a job. There is no "right" to leave matches. The factthat you're allowed to ######### on hook and there's no penalty to it is realistically the only answer to the question. It is permitted within game mechanics and the devs don't currently see a problem with it. Beyond that, any feelings o fill will you bear towards people who want to value their time by not participating in certain matches is your problem, not theirs.
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"if you can't have fun with dbd because of that, I suggest you to play other games" - Then why the hell did you wrote this to me? If you are not having fun as well? xD
Having no penalty for DCs will only end up in a matches with multiple bots all the time. So to cure that we need to play other game?
Or should we just have more rough penalty or even a ban possibilities to make people think rationally if they thinking about DC?
No. We just need to prevent players from hook suicides. And leave a penalty as it is. Since some DCs are not just simple rage quits.
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Less people will play the game, which is already, sort of, becoming a problem. The game is doing fine, but there's been little innovation in the last years and people are burnt out. You know what increases burn out? Banning people for 4%'ing or trying to force them to stay in a miserable game.
Can you imagine the damage that would do? "I got banned because I tried to unhook myself" "I got banned for using the wrong perk"
This game already has a reputation issue, that really wouldn't help things.
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Look at any other online game, they will have the same kind of punishments in place.
Also, that is the point of this thread, to say that this behavior is unacceptable and SHOULD be punished, or removed as a game mechanic. So unless you can actually articulate an argument that explains why it should stay when literally every other multiplayer online game ever has these types of things in place, saying "the game lets you" is part of this discussion, we are saying that it should not let you.
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And yet, I've killed myself on hook at 5 gens because there's 3 people left and I'm the only one who hasn't been hooked.
Sure, people who suicide for no reason are dicks. They are also rare, in my experience. Just about as rare as people who bleed everyone out. Generally, I can find some reason that they've left the game.
I also don't get super bent out of shape about it, its a game, if they arent having fun, Im not gonna force them to stay to satisfy my ego. I'm far more concerned with the matchmaker than my teammates killing themselves
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The problem is there are perks that encourage you to attempt (slippery meat) so they can never really ban someone for trying to kobe when they have this perk and luck offerings in the game even if you aren't running its considered an intended style of play due to the fact you can create a build for it even if it is bad for your team.
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The game like Smite have 8k players at it's peak. And they harshly banning left and right with no mercy anyone that have such unhealthy behaviour as DCing. And Smite even older than DBD, and never has any updates in terms of gameplay.
And people were loving what their developers were doing with this unhealthy behaviour.
I mean, what is even your message again...
So If a playerbase got deacreased because of a burn out, then players should be allowed to commit crimes or something?
Excuse me?
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I get it, I know. This is why I agree with people on this thread about removing completely 4% as a whole. It should completely cure this issue.
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And why can't they do a penalty system before banning? We already have one for DCers, why not just extend that to the ones who are without a doubt going next? Start with low numbers and have it ramp up with repeated offenses.
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It has nothing to do with ego, most people just enjoy the game considerably more when its not sabotaged by someone's impatience.
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You're ignoring another aspect, people being burned out from teammates that do this. Or new players quitting because they get matches where this happens.
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Hook opt outs should go away at the same time as tunneling and slugging.
There is a better than average chance that if you are the first person hooked, you will get tunneled out of the match in the current state of the game. It's just the way killers are playing versus learning how to play killer and improving their skill. People are so against losing a match that they will slug, tunnel, do whatever to get out of the match. As this continues, more and more survivors are just going next versus being tunneled. It's an unfortunate effect.
Now, it is not the only reason people opt out on the hook, some people just don't like Nurse or have a fear of clowns, had a player opt out against Dredge due to the flashing to darkness triggering a migraine but if the community would stop with the toxicity from one side, there would start to be less on the other. Then, it would be easier to just find the players who opt out for no good reason and report them.
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That....is a ban system?
It's not permanent, but it is a ban system just like the one we have now.
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I am of the belief that part of the issue with burn-out is that DBD is very uniquely unfun.
In games like CoD, for example, you can get spawncamped. You still have agency, but it may not be pleasant. In DBD, there are certain things either side can do that remove pretty much all agency from you. This, first and foremost, feels absolutely awful to play against. If you start getting it multiple games in a row, you can easily see why it can be extremely frustrating.
Allowing people to DC, would in essence, make them feel like they have some sort of control.
I hate to link content creators into it, but I mostly agree with Scott's take on it.
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I agree.
But making DC as a "legal" action is a very wrong choice of handling this.
Because it's also very frustrating to a player having 1-2+ DCs in a multiple matches. It's not helping at all, since one side that having an "legal option" now, the other side is getting more and more frustrated with their matches because of that.
It's just not how you managing or handling the issue.
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Who are you to tell someone else that they shouldn't be playing the game due to a medical issue?
Check your entitlement and ego at the door.
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Well, you need to ask yourself if you'd rather have someone who doesn't want to play the game or a bot who does want to play the game.
Because, realistically, you cannot force someone to want to play the game. You might be able to force them to stay in a match that they hate, but that will only serve to increase their negative feelings, which then leads to a downward spiral.
If they changed bots back to how they were at the beginning, removed the pre-game lobby and hid names during the match, I think the game would be in a VASTLY better state.
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I'd really like to see Behaviour remove forwarding your own hook timer completely. It's such an awful mechanic for everyone in the match.
I've had so many matches ruined as survivor because somebody just decided they didn't like how they went down and unalive within about 10 seconds from first hook, completely screwing the rest of the survivors over because they don't even get a bot now. And I've seen it happen multiple times as killer where a survivor just leaves their team without a fourth, causing them all to die when they probably wouldn't have otherwise.
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You made it sound like they'd have to be hurling out perma bans at the first infraction while people would be leaving the game because of it, while something as simple as the matchmaking penalty for DCing would more than suffice.
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When doctor saying that you should not interract with objects that makes your illness worse...
You're saying to this doctor to check his entitlement and ego at the door as well? =)
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A lot of good points both for and against, but he completely missed the lack of parity for killer: There is no way to go next, and there certainly are ways survivors can make the experience just as miserable as killers can do to survivors. I kept waiting for him to bring it up, and was kinda disappointed when it wasn't touched on as an alternative solution.
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Never played DotA. Sounds like a game I never would play.
Those matches where my teammates refuse to participate are miserable. They can go on for over half an hour as I get chased, get away, try to work on a gen, and then get either found by the killer or immediately sandbagged by a teammate who happened to get found. I've had those matches go on for over forty minutes before I finally begged for death because it was so frustrating and boring. I'm not doing that anymore.
It's not that those teammates are 'playing in a way I don't like.' It's that they're not playing. A mod on the forums recently said that stealthing around not touching gens counts as unsportsmanlike behavior ("refusing to participate in normal gameplay") and is reportable, but reporting is a pain in the butt, it's easier and quicker to move on. I'm not obligated to play with people who aren't playing.
And that's the thing. This game doesn't have things in place to prevent players from breaking the rules. We're told to report those players. And I do report the most egregious ones but it's a damn pain in the ass and I'm not going to waste my life reporting people when again it's much easier to just move on.
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There are definitely ways for Survivor to make a Killers life miserable.
A lot of them stem from poor matchmaking, but that's been DBD's motto for it's entire lifespan.
I'd vibe with a Killer way to go next.
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I apologize if that's how you understood it, but I don't think anyone (barring a few people) genuinely want to hardware ban people for not playing.
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I never said I'm not having fun
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I disagree with 90% of what scott says at any given moment and i disagreed with his take here.
In terms of that, you are talking about agency, and fundamentally that is the design of DBD. The entire game is designed around the idea that the goal of the killer effectively removes agency from a survivor. That is fundamentally how the game works. So if you don't like that, no amount of "quitting the game because you don't like it" is going to make the game fun for you.
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Because if they have a medical condition such that the literally cannot play the game or they experience like a life threatening condition, they probably shouldn't be playing the video game. And, if its only because of that one specific killer, they should DC, take the penalty, and have a bot replace them, not ######### over their team.
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I'd rather the frequent ragequitters are banned for longer periods of time, or are matched with other frequent ragequitters, so that they aren't ever matched into my games.
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Whidh sort of brings us back into the whole the Forums are an extremely small fraction of players and most of us are FAR more experienced than the casual DBD player.
We might be just fine with waiting longer for matches, but Survivors already waiting a fairly long time, I don't think a lot of casual players will appreciate or notice (for all intents and purposes) removing ragequitters more than the iincreased queues.
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Yeah, I'd rather the occasional ragequitter than having longer queue times. It's so uncommon in my games for people to let go. If it's happening frequently enough to someone that they want the devs to force others to play with them, then it makes me wonder how unpleasant they must be to play with that everyone seemingly ducks out on them. They're the common denominator in those games.
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How many times do I have to bring up other games to prove you are just wrong. It's almost sad how many times you have repeated this.
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Killer player's DCs have nothing to do with Team play by any means. The only players who "suffering" from a DC at this point are only killers themselves.
Besides, the match is completely over after a killer DC. And survivors getting an escape points.
Survivors have just a little inconvenience by having to sit through queue again.
I mean, it's obvious. Why would anyone bring killers into this?
1 killer vs 4 survivors (5 players), 1 killer left - 4 players from a match happy and 1 unhappy. And 1 unhappy guy is the one who left the match.
Fair enough.
But when a survivor DC - It's 1 unhappy guy makes other 3 guys expirience be "unhappy" as well, while killer can like it or not.
I personaly as a killer, hate when they do that to their teammates. Since I can't play serious after someone left at first hook or down.
Winning an unfair match for me is not satisfying. Matches like this are losing their point of joy.
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All the arguments against not punishing people who suicide on hook literally make no sense ranging from Assym special snowflake to people being penalized for leaving will turn many players off and reduce the playerbase
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Yep. They never stop to think if they are being selfish or if the people they are defending are being selfish.
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Just made an account to come and say this. No thank you to 4% removal.
This sentiment always feels like it was made for the killer's benefit more than the survivor.
It's just like the DC bots which were pretty much only put in to allow the killer to get 4ks and achievements.
@Reinami your Dota 2 analogy doesn't hold up because in Dota 2 as well as other MOBA's you actively get punished for not playing the game correctly.
I've gotten plenty of people punished because they refused to listen to the team or fed hard or what have you.
A pos 5 Warlock taking their 1's creeps and stacking divine rapiers will get punished if reported. Yet the players who cleanse dull totems and hide all game for hatch are fine? This makes no sense.
For some reason DBD is the only game where both the players and the devs actively encourage bad and inefficient survivor gameplay to make up for poor balancing.
Idc what anyone says, totem builds, chest builds, locker builds are all trolling, in fact most off-meta perk loadouts and playstyles are actively throwing and need to be balanced. But that takes work BHVR isn't willing to put in at present because they and some members of the community are delusional.
Solo queue is so terrible because these builds and playstyles should be relegated to consenting SWF'S. If you are queueing solo it should be expected that all survivors and the killer play efficiently regardless of mmr bracket. It's not shocking there's a hookcide epidemic.
The Dwight, Meg, and Claudette who queue up for solo queue with the intent to win and work as a team absolutely do not deserve to be forced to stay in the match with the Jake running to every chest in the map with Appraisal before touching a single Gen or taking chase. Yet many people here including the devs would argue the opposite because it's "a party game." Nevermind the fact that things are constantly being watered down and nerfed for the sake of competitive balance. It is folly.
Until camping and proxy camping are dead, until basement gets fixed, until tunneling isn't mindlessly easy, and until survivors are actively encouraged to play as a team and people who never do gens or take aggro are punished, 4% and hookcides are a necessary evil.
If they are to be removed, at the bare minimum I expect BHVR to be more aggressive in clearly stating expectations for survivor players so we can address how many selfish players there are.
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For what it's worth, OP, this was pretty much the reason why I stopped playing survivor months ago. And while I'm getting ready to dive into both sides again, if I end up ceasing to play survivor again, this will almost certainly be why.
NOT the actions of killers. Period. And yes, I've been tunneled out of the game, and face camped, and proxy camped. And this does not bother me, because these are legitimate ways for killers to play.
I've been left to bleed out when the killer could just hook me and end the match, hit on hook, faced blatant hackers. And this has annoyed me, because it's poor sportsmanship/outright cheating.
But when my own freaking side screws me over by up and quitting early? Now I'm pissed. And no, not from missing a flashlight save, or going down to a killer quickly, or other possible bad play. Because I've made mistakes myself against killers, and I understand that sometimes fellow survivors will make honest mistakes, or the killer will make a good play and nail them quick. And that's fine.
But when even one survivor just up and quits, especially at 3-5 gens, they screw me and the other 2 survivors over. And while I have escaped as part of a survivor trio, that's still rare, cause it's bloody hard to do.
These quitters screw over the match I'm in, they hurt my MMR, and they waste my time. So yeah, the main people I hate when I play survivor are my fellow survivors, cause I'm tired of how many of them just throw the match and dump their garbage on me as a result.
And since someone's going to suggest SWF, I tried. But I can't get my comms set up, my PC keeps me running in circles and I don't know whats wrong. So I can't get my headset to work, and since this is the only game I play where I'd need one, I'm not going to keep trying. So solo que it is for me, and too many survivor "teammates" are the ones who make it miserable.
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The problem is... you don't know the real reason.
It can be rage quit but it can be rl (door bell, phone call, seizure, kids...)
I am like @Simfeliz and don't care anymore. It's just a game, if I still have 5 gens and 2 mates, I will play normally knowing that the game is over and I will take the L and go next.
I am 100% soloQ and the hook suicide happens a lot but not in all my games. I got used to have bad matches all the time, hook suicide is just one of them.
The time i would spend reporting someone for hooking suicide and ruining one game is just not worth it. For me is better to move on to the next game.
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The point was a parity option, something like the killer being able to open the exit gate before the gens are powered. I'm one of the ones completely against any form of going next, but if it has to stay then I feel the killer should get the opportunity to do the same. The idea was going off of scott's argument about how some people dc/hookicide because they find the match miserable, which isn't something thats unique to the survivor role.
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If survivors are waiting too long for a game, that should be a giant clue that the killer role needs more quality of life improvements, so that more people would want to queue as killer .
My survivor queue times have been terrible ever since the Survivor HUD happened, literally non-stop 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, even when there are 100% survivor incentives… except for the first two days that Xeno was released. And the anti face camp update made my survivor queue times even worse. And this Halloween event made my survivor queue times even more worse than that.
And I’m still not sure what is even happening here. Is my survivor MMR so abnormally high that the DBD is having issues finding other survivors in my MMR range? I see the survivor incentives at 100%, often enough to assume there are a lot of killer players on my server -=*somewhere*=-.
Why aren’t the survivor queue times a hot topic on these forums? Are most people ok with their survivor queue times? Are most people getting decent survivor queue times? Do most people hate the killer role so much that they’d rather suffer through garbage survivor queue times, than ask BHVR to give killers some quality of life improvements so that more people would queue as killer more often?
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You're not a doctor. And they're not your patient. And once again, its not your decision to make for someone else, just so they don't "ruin" your good time.
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This, they should get banned
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