Trickster massive buff... I have major concerns
Everyone is talking about MFT but no one is talking about the massive Trickster buff. I always thought and still think that he never needed a buff to begin with. That he was fine on release date. It made me think that if Nurse came out today she would be so overly buffed that she would be the new Trickster. But everyone knows a nurse in the hands of someone who has practiced with her knows how strong she is. Same with Trickster, they were just too quick to pull the trigger IMO.
But now they are going to buff him more? And am I to understand that if he brings in two add-ons he can trigger main even after hitting someone with 3 blades!!? He could also bring the add-on so he gets main event with 4 blades and have the blades bounce off of walls with another add-on. I have to wonder what the developers are thinking. I can only assume it will get crazy during the PTB and they will have to pull way back on his buffs.
What do you guys think? Am I overreacting and he does need this massive buff or was he fine where he is currently at? Or do you think he actually needs a nerf?
Also, why is he going to be the only ranged killer that has a movement speed of 4.6 and now a terror radius of 32 meters. Get ready for a lot of main events and screaming after he reloads at a locker (UW Perk).
Comments
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He also has to hit 8 times which means he has to reload more often.
Not to mention even with all of this he is likely still going to be worse than Artist, the biggest problem of Trickster was always his lack of identity imo. There was never a good reason to pick him over DS/Huntress. He can neither snipe like Huntress/Artist or use tiny gaps like Deathslinger for downs. The only thing i enjoyed about him was Ricochet blades because it increased his skill ceiling and made him more distinct (I MEAN HE HIS CALLED TRICKSTER) and i hoped for a rework that made it basekit and played around that instead.
I think you are overreacting a bit, they just turned him from a worse Huntress to a worse Artist, instead of giving him a better identity. But that is just my opinion reading the patch notes for now, we will have to see till it drops. My biggest concern is the low requirement for Main Event turning him into a tunneling monster.
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Remember Trickster is really unlikely to injure a survivor from afar, unlike Huntress or even Slinger, since it takes several shots (Even more now) to injure someone, rather than one hit, so him moving faster or having a bigger TR, hardly helps in that regard, it mostly helps him at looping, where he seriously struggled at tall loops.
Regarding the other stuff, we will have to see it first.
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I think hes fine with the buff. he was only a ranged killer in name anyway, closer to nemmy or something like that in terms of range. thats an understatement but you get the idea.
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Making an already annoying killer even more annoying... What could possibly go awry?
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I think he needed a buff personally. But i do admit i was shocked reading the removal of recoil and 6 charges to use main event. Sounds like he'll have to reload much less? But i think 10 seconds reduction to 5 seconds is probably being underestimated. 5 seconds and then having that long cooldown at the end means you will have to use it carefully.
4.6m/s i think he's always needed because on maps with tall walls his power is almost useless so being 4.6m/s should make him less map dependant. Also people forget he has seperate movement speeds when throwing blades, so i don't believe this change will make him faster when throwing blades. It just means he can get around the map faster and deal with loops where his power isn't good for.
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This. Like, BHVR, why 💀💀💀
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Faster recovery after being hit with knives is a pretty big deal, I wouldn't jump to conclusions right now.
4.6 is the real deal though
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Trickster being 4.4m/s was always a huge hinderance to him, because he was never good at dealing with survivors at a range. Landing a knife from 20m+ accomplishes nothing. Not to mention the reliance on hitting multiple times with his power meant that certain loops he auto-lost at, because being 4.4m/s meant he couldn't just hold w after the survivor and he was never hitting the knives quick enough to deal any damage. 4.6m/s means that he's not completely screwed over at very specific tiles.
Activating Main Event after 3 knives isn't necessarily a big deal. Right now it's too easy to never have a good moment to use Main Event, because either the survivor is already downed or the survivor is in an area where Main Event would be an active hinderance. Plus I honestly don't think it's worthwhile to bring both addons to reduce the number of knives to trigger main event over some of his other addons.
Also you can't really be comparing Nurse to Trickster.
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I think the fact that it takes more knives to injure and the laceration decays faster will be a big thing.
He's essentially gone from 7 Health States per reload to 5.
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The pain point for survivor they wanted to address was that “dodging blades felt inconsequential” which it does. Problem is these changes only make that feeling worse and I’ll explain why here.
- He now throws 4 blades a second instead of 3 but ramp up has been removed. In practise this means each loop you will take 2-4 knives per rotation with no way to dodge as attempting to move out of the way will leave you open for way more knives especially when combined with the next change
- He now moves at 4.6 ms with a 32m Terror radius. I’m not sure how this affects movement while holding throwing knifes but it allows him to close the gap on survivors who attempt to dodge and can now close distance on every loop rotation to hit even more knives. Even at high wall loops which usually were a nightmare for him he’ll get through them super quick
- Main event now takes 6 knives to charge instead of 30 but with a 5 second duration. This makes main event much more common but less effective at camping someone. This means getting main event while the survivor is stuck at a low wall loop will be much more common and be essentially a free down with next to no survivor input
I know these will be tested on the PTB first but even on a conceptual level these changes look awful and only exasperated tricksters current issues.
Would love info on his movement speed while holding/throwing blades and if that’s getting changed too
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Yeah, but he now throws four blades per second instead of three. That's why they increased it. Plus being able to get main event so quickly, having to hit them 8 times is not going to be noticeable at all. Plus when you factor in a trickster bringing the add-on where the blades bounce off of walls and they bring you to an indoor map. That's going to be... fun
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It doesn’t particularly matter in most cases since he can now hit you with way more knives per loop and is faster during each rotation
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I really worry about the fun factor with this. If the killer can aim at all, you just go down at any structure he can hit over.
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So just like any other killer with a power that hits over structures.
No one enjoys a mechanic where your power is effective based on rng.
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My concern is that at any low wall loop the survivor has no option now. Run away and get injured, loop around and get guaranteed injured by knives, throw pallet and get hit with knives
Now that he’s 115% making distance doesn’t work as well especially since he can throw faster bursts of knives from afar to keep laceration from going down
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Wasn't really comparing. It was more on the line of saying that people are so quick to say a killer is trash because they don't know how to play as them - so they give up. Back when DBD first came out you only had a few killers to pick and people got really good with Nurse. If Nurse came out today, people would say she was trash and hard to control. Her play rate would go way down. Then BHVR would buff the hell out of her and now people who are new to playing as her could play like a pro and then the pros would be able to mow people down even faster. They probably even give nurse 4.6 speed. All speculation of course but this is what I have noticed with anything BHVR releases. It makes me think Trickster is getting a legendary outfit with a unique Mori soon...
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I don't quite understand what they're going for by buffing trickster. Whenever you ask people which killers they hate Trickster is always near the top of every list. Why would you buff that killer of all killers? This is one of those things that nobody asked for and no one is going to enjoy.
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I dont think Ricochet blades will be more popular than his new add-ons, but even if the situation you said came, its not even half as bad as many maps with low tiles such as Red Forest or Autohaven where he can simply hit over the loop quickly. He is basicly a 115% anti loop Killer which we have plenty of.
I don't think he will be OP but really aggrevating to play against and probably boring to play which i think wont make him a more common sight ingame. Thats why playing around Ricochet Blades as basekit would have been better.
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He doesn’t even need amazing aim tbh. Once the survivor is on their way to the pallet they have 2 choices
- Run through and take 3-4 knives
- Try to dodge and potentially take even more if he has even half decent aim
Why dodge him if it only allows his new 115% speed self to get close. He has no long cooldown after throw like slinger or huntress so no real penalty to missing especially since he can now M1 loop while out of knives pretty well
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Except that the other 2 projectile/ranged killers existing have a downtime that allows survivors to move away. He can just keep spamming one of his 3876324 knives
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He has to land 16 knives to take you from healthy to dying and you still get a speed boost upon becoming injured. If you can't get yourself to safety before being hit by 16 knives, that was your own fault. Trickster has always excelled at open areas and low walls. Nothing has changed.
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Huntress and slinger actually have a long cooldown for missing alongside 110% speed giving survivors time to run away and find a new better loop if they outplay and dodge the shot
Trickster doesn’t allow this. He throws constant knifes with little cooldown, moves at 115% now and can easily pull his knifes up and down for little cost
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Exactly, he has always excelled at this so he doesn't need buffs that make it even more punishing (and tbh, absolutely uninteractive)
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16 fast knives (now 4 per second instead of 3), plus main event going off after hitting someone 6 times. If they bring the add-on to reload after main event, he never has to reload his blades again. I mean we will have to see in the PTB
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Main Event doesn't fire instantly. There's a small delay before he starts firing knives with Main Event.
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Many people wanted Trickster adjusted since his release. It just quiet down, because we've gotten new stuff since Trickster and people just stopped playing him.
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Trickster seems to be a developer favourite due to the amount of work that was put into him.
His list of post launch changes is drastically longer than most killers, He gets tons of cosmetics despite a relative low pick rate and got his archive very soon after his release (back when that wasn’t a common thing)
Compare that to someone like slinger and we can see a bit of bias imo
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It really promotes the most boring gameplay possible on survivor. Run ridiculously early to maintain range and pre-drop when he's 16 meters away.
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Exactly. They want trickster identity to be the machine gun ranged killer but that design is fundamentally flawed to a point where any buff like this will cause issues.
Huntress had a lot of thought put into her as the first ranged killer with wind up, charged hatchets, long cooldown, slow movement and a large lullaby to counteract the ability to injured and down at range.
Trickster just wasn’t given this same design philosophy. He has a short windup, Next to no cooldown in between shots, is now super accurate with no recoil, can move at 115% to close the gap on survivor who move to avoid his shots which costs them distance and has main event every 6 knives to get a guaranteed injure/down at any low walled loop
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I think the main event change is really the only concern
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Trickster is already a hard killer to deal with, depending on the map. In open maps its very hard to dodge his ranged attack. Range between survivor and killers should buy time for the survivor but that is made more difficult when you also have to try and dodge things.
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Im Trickster Main NOW - For sure! Kappa
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Trickster was already miserable to play against, now he will be even more miserable. 8 knives instead of 6? That's an inconsequential difference, especially when he's throwing so many more all the time, and at a higher speed.
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Increasing his base speed is absolutely madness
whats next? they gonna increase the speed for Deathslinger, Huntress, Spirit and Nurse?
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Yeah, killers knowing how to aim their attacks is pretty toxic. Wish BHVR did something about it.
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Dont forget about poor Hag :3
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Tricksters biggest weakness imo was his slow movement speed and low map control. If you took him to any high wall loop he was pretty much useless, especially if he held his knives looping as he was slowed. Buffing his speed makes him much more enjoyable to play.
I don't really have an opinion on his recoil as I play pc and correcting wasn't much of a problem. Console players seemed to struggle so I think it's good for em.
Main event was also a pain as you needed to hit 30 knives AND be in an optimal position to use it. I can't tell you how many times I had main event ready to proc but couldn't use it as I had already downed someone or they were simply too far away. Not being able to use his power and losing it either way was so punishing. I do think it could do to have a higher hit count (even 15 is nice) so his power is actually useable regardless.
His changes aren't all buffs. Having the laceration meter change from 15 to 10 seconds doesn't sound like much but I enjoyed getting that LAST hit when I much needed it after failing to hit someone for a bit of time. This also includes there requiring more knives to fill up said meter.
The change to his iri add on photocard being haste is also a sad change. I dislike haste on anything. It being an automatic expose was fun lol.
Regardless if hes too OP in the PTB, some of these changes may not make it to live. We have time to test and see but for now, I think trickster is in a much better place. I'd love to see more of him in the fog.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about her lol
I was only thinking about ranged killers
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16 blades instead 12 for down and not more increase throw frequency looks like mehh, but, they are really important nerfs about his power. We need some test, but, those changes sounds good for him. He needed some love.
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Just chill.
This version of Trickster will never make it through the PTB.
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a weak killer got buffed and stats propably confirmed he was and he was also rare and a nightmare for a large portion of the playerbase because of the limitations of a controller
bhvr saw an opportunity to make him feel better without reworking his power and took it why are we not happy about this?
also bhvr said the twins rework took a long time cuz it took more work than expected and gave us a date (early 2024)
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We'll have to see what even makes it through the PTB. I hope the walking speed increase stays. I've always wanted to be able to play Trickster as an M1 killer because I like the bat twirl animation. No guarantee I'll like his blades even if the recoil is removed, aiming sucks ass on controller in DbD no matter what, but his bat is ❤️.
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This sounds like fun.
I skipped the Skull Merchant PTB, because it didn't sound fun.
But, this one I'll try.
He should have very strong 1v1 and struggle to keep pressure over the map. Sounds like a fun area of control killer to use and play against.
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i am not sure if this is a buff. throwing knives from 4->3 is a 33% buff to your throwing rate but your time to down from 6 -> 8 is +33% increase to your time to injure. In theory, both changes counter-act each other and likely cancel each other out? If they omitted negative change or put change to 7 blades then maybe this would be buff but it might be nerf. the 10 second decay from 15 decay is a negative change
Main event being 6 knives is not that impressive because your throwing rate is already max so only aspect you get from this change is not using ammo. this does not address why main event is bad. the reason why it is bad is because your movement speed is nurse-walking speed so people can kite you around high-wall objects. that is why most trickster often do not use main event because it removes control from manually wind-up throwing knives.
4.4 vs 4.6. this is a buff but it comes with negative that his tr is 32 meters.
--Another comment is one of his add-on is called iridescent photo card. this is really good add-on that grants you exposed status effect after landing 4 knives. this is being nerfed to grant you 1-7% haste stackable bonus however you lose entire bonus for missing once. Given trickster's gameplay revolves around rapid firing knives, your very unlikely to get value out of this haste effect with drawback of this add-on.
On another note, Iri photocard says that the add-on keeps 7% haste until you down a survivor. there is no time limit. So in theory, you can hit 7 knives and just stay permanent 122%(123%) speed until you down someone. my instinct tells me that this add-on will get changed because it functionally is ineffective at helping during your power but once you hit 7 knives... you become strongest m1 killer in the game with permanent 123% speed.
I would remain skeptical on these changes.
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A lot of people are talking about it.
People on reddit are being cringe as usual with their let's go comments, and nothing constructive. There is a few contrsuctive comments about why this is bad and how it will work.
I've seen a lot of comments in the official update thread as well, and someone wrote what they called an essay on the changes, so there is a lot of talking going on :)
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Tricksters biggest weakness imo was his slow movement speed and low map control. If you took him to any high wall loop he was pretty much useless, especially if he held his knives looping as he was slowed. Buffing his speed makes him much more enjoyable to play.
I don't really have an opinion on his recoil as I play pc and correcting wasn't much of a problem. Console players seemed to struggle so I think it's good for em.
Main event was also a pain as you needed to hit 30 knives AND be in an optimal position to use it. I can't tell you how many times I had main event ready to proc but couldn't use it as I had already downed someone or they were simply too far away. Not being able to use his power and losing it either way was so punishing. I do think it could do to have a higher hit count (even 15 is nice) so his power is actually useable regardless.
His changes aren't all buffs. Having the laceration meter change from 15 to 10 seconds doesn't sound like much but I enjoyed getting that LAST hit when I much needed it after failing to hit someone for a bit of time. This also includes there requiring more knives to fill up said meter.
The change to his iri add on photocard being haste is also a sad change. I dislike haste on anything. It being an automatic expose was fun lol.
Regardless if hes too OP in the PTB, some of these changes may not make it to live. We have time to test and see but for now, I think trickster is in a much better place. I'd love to see more of him in the fog.
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I think it's a case of let's see. Way to many changes at once for anyone to have a clue.
Biggest buff is obviously 4.6 movement but that comes with a increased terror radius so the old problem where people just run the second they hear you isn't gone.
Trickster catching people of guard was when he was at his strongest and that's less likely to happen now. Obviously still way more of a net buff but it isn't all upsides
Faster throwing rate by base but increased blades needed by laceration in theory cancels eachother out but in practise you're most likely aren't hitting every knife and will it be enough to sneak a extra knife in during long wall loops?
I don't know, without seeing it in practise you can't know. Honestly how easy it will be to be accurate with knives when recoil drops is a bigger factor then people are realising i think.
The main event change is the one that is kinda overblown imo. All other flaws of main event are still there.
If you hit 6 knives will you really spend the time to activate main event to slow yourself down to a crawl and watch the survivor dart off with their on hit speed boost.
Any rock is a infinite against main event. It's still a highly situational move. No matter how frequent you get it.
And i might be wrong about this but i believe you still spend knives in main event so misuse really sets you back hard. It's not the one button wonder people are thinking it is
Lastly his ammo count hasen't changed so by base he went from 7.3 healthstates before reload to 5.5 healthstates with perfect accuracy which let's be real isn't doable with trickster.
Probably a estimated avarage of going down to 4 healthstates per reload instead of 6 if the trickster is good.
The only obvious concern here is the addon that auto reloads him. Outside of that it's obviously a buff but you can't really tell how much of a buff without seeing it in action
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"not more increase throw frequency"
This is not a Nerf. Trickster starts at 3 Blades per second and after 8 Blades he reaches 4 Blades per second. After the Patch he will start at 4 Blades per second, but will not gain more throw rate. Starting at the maximum is not a Nerf, it is a clear Buff.
And 16 blades instead of 12... Considerung that he throws faster and especially enters Main Event faster, I am not sure if this is really a Nerf or more of a necessary evil to make him not too oppressive.
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I am also pretty concerned about the changes, but I wait to see how they play out. But Trickster was already really miserable to go against and while they write that they want to make him better for both sides, I dont think they really achieved it. Sure, he gets Main Event more often, so you are not the poor guy who gets hit by something which happens rarely during the game. But getting hit by it frequently...
Also, with the two reworked Add Ons (Ji-Woons Autograph and Fizz-Spin Soda) you reach Main Event after just hitting 3 Blades. REALLY not sure about that one...
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I think they overbuffed him mainly due the Main Event change. If they remove the Main Event change it would be fine.
The cange to 4.6 m/s killer was needed. His power is trash in some tiles, so with this change he simply can be used like any M1 killer in that tiles. For example he was the worst killer in the shack, you could negate his power in the shack by simply running around the shack and waiting in corners to see where he was going, fortunately not many people knew this.
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The laceration decay I would imagine will also be a bigger deal as each stack will be smaller percentage of the total, so you will lose stacks faster.
The Main Event change seems good to make him actually have it be a factor you regularly play around rather than just be the unfortunate one who he happened to get it on at the right time. Though I'm not sure how one would combat his tunnel off hook when he can injure/down the unhooker during the unhook animation, and use main event to chew through BT on the survivor coming off hook.
Maybe the 8 stacks with the AFC giving better angles would be enough? If not, feels like there may need to be some kind of trade off...
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