The Endgame Perk Paradox
With the Batteries nerf, I'm seeing the usual discussions. The claim of "The killer perks giving a boost to people playing poorly" is being tossed around. The only thing that bothers me is how inconsistent this argument is.
If a killer kills 3 ppl with 5 gens left and closes hatch... gens are also powered and survivor perks that "reward survivors for a good job" like Adrenaline and Hope, still are active in this scenario. Meanwhile Batteries gets turned off... You also have perks like corrupt and ruin that turn off early for Killers doing what they are suppose to do. I feel like the only perk that gets stronger after the survivors do gens that no one cares to complain about it Fire Up, which is just because it's so lackluster.
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Yeah I agree, it feels like overkill when the perk is already leashed by only activating near generators. It giving you more locations to take advantage of it when endgame begins made it a solid perk thats useful at all stages of the match.
I hope they backpedal on this nerf because there'd be no reason to run a perk that only works in four spots of the entire map.
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4 spots that you really shouldn't be chasing anyone at that. Think having the perk reversed be too much, where it is only active near UNFINISHED gens? Then I could understand it not being on during endgame.
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If a killer kills 3 survivors and closes hatch neither hope nor adrenaline is saving that survivor. At the very least they die to EGC which still counts as a kill for the killer. That is not a difference you can ignore.
Batteries Included deserves its nerf. Killers already have bloodlust. Haste stacking is problematic, no?
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I agree, haste stacking sucks. Haste stacking itself should be addressed rather than limiting individual perks or addons. It doesn't make sense to nerf individual perks/addons on the basis that OTHER sources of haste that might not even be in play exist.
This has been my attitude for just about ANY stacking. I thought it dumb that various gen slowdown perks were nerfed due to the possibility of stacking.
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They made a perk that was only useful in the end game as part of some end game strategy which is already risky to a perk that has no real use.
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Bloodlust is always in play; it only takes 15 seconds to activate.
And gen regression perks weren’t nerfed due to the possibility of them stacking; they were nerfed because they blew up kill rates. Killers essentially abused their synchronicity. Games took ages and often resulted in 4Ks because survivors died to the overwhelming pressure of 4slowdown perk attrition. So the devs decided to scale all gen regression perks back so the kill rate could come down to where they want it.
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Listen. Endgame perks are a dangerous game as it is. Tunneling is already a huge discussion here. And most killers who run only endgame perks tend to do just that. Its an ez strategy tbh. I dont blame them. But i dont see introducing more endgame perks helpful for this community if its going to cause even more commontion on tunneling.
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Your telling me that using OC and COB together isn't "stacking", or the slowdown addons for Freddy wasn't "stacking"... Those addons got nerfed because someone thought the minor slowdown each provided was by itself an issue?
As for the bloodlust thing, you immediately pointed out that it's NOT constantly in play. It comes on after 15 seconds of being in a chase and not breaking pallets, using powers or getting hits. It seems very reasonable to only have 1 source of haste to be active at any given time and just work off whatever the strongest one is.
If I have 3 stacks of PWYF and BL1, the PWYF value should be taken as opposed to if I have 1 stack of PWYF and BL3, in which case only the BL3 value should be used (this is purely a hypothetical and admittedly ridiculous example).
This way having 37 sources of +5% haste only gives +5% haste total.
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How does endgame perks have ANYTHING to do with tunneling? How are those 2 things tied together at all? Honest question, cuz I'm not seeing a connection except with Remember Me maybe since it doesn't affect the obsession.
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Killers basekit speed already faster than survivors (not to mention ranged killers), bloodlust, NOED.
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
Batteries included didn’t deserve this nerf. Hope and MFT are OK, but 9% from NOED and Batteries is bad...why?
Alternatively, 10% would be better to quickly end chases outside the areas of unfinished generators. then yes, disabling the perk at the end of the match would be justified
btw Hope and MFT are still synergize in the endgame, one hit within 10 seconds after unhook and that’s it, 4.4
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You wouldn't have a game if the killers were SLOWER. I really don't get how you thought you had any kind of point there.
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This wouldn't be such an issue, were it not for the ability of MFT stacking. MFT shouldn't be stackable, even with the upcoming nerf to it.
I won't go so far as claiming the devs are bias towards Survivor, because a couple of Blight add-ons that people are aware of alone is enough evidence to disprove this, but I absolutely see the frustration of this within that context.
Haste shouldn't be stackable for either side.
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I’m just explaining why slowdown perks have been nerfed. As for BL, it’s not omnipresent but no form of haste is. The point is that it becomes haste stacking because you can activate a perk like, say, Batteries Includes then wait 15 seconds to gain BL. Which stacks the haste. I don’t personally believe haste stacking is an issue.
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It's really not that inconsistent.
The beginning of the game is the weakest point for the Killer, survivors have every resource available on the map, perks, items etc.
Endgame is the strongest point for the killer. Resources have been used up, survivors are potentially dead, strong perks have been disabled, anticamping disabled, NOED still exists for some bizarre reason, etc. Survivors need every help they can get.
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Your first comment on this thread is what brought up haste stacking to begin with...
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The mention of haste stacking makes me wonder if a hardcap would be better, like "Ok, we get it, you like going fast, but only x% total".
But I digress, imo BL is fine because it's the chase version or PWYF, which both suffer from time consumption. It's haste is less desirable than PWYF, as you can't enter a chase with 3 stacks from the gitgo. Hope could maybe have it's time limit restored, but it's a nice reward for surviving 5gen repairs.
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Its literally a common strat among endgame killer builds. Im surprised ur just finding this out. It literally makes 3v1 very difficult for survivors if they even make it to endgame. Some killer streamers even do it now.
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Batteries Included was looking to be a pretty decent Endgame perk.
Now it's just a terrible perk that works against the killer.
It's the killer version of Dark Theory.
Why are haste perks always so awful? Rapid Brutality did the same thing. Short conditional haste effect that rewards M1 killers over M2 killers, great! Totally disables Bloodlust. It's like an anti tunnelling perk that makes survivors start on death hook.
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How is a person MORE successful at tunneling someone when they have no perks to aid them at any aspect?
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Because they want gens to get done. Thats the point of the build. If they managed to get a 4k before endgame, its still an ez win. And if they do get a 1k before endgame which is not hard to do against solo q players, it will be that much easier to get a 4k from your endgame build. Even if u have to slug to do so.
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And somehow that 1 person you tunneled out is the key to winning once you let everyone do gens? I'm really failing to see how 1 person being out is gonna make or break opening the exitgates and leaving. You cant even get NWO stacks. It feels like you died to what is essentially a meme/troll build, so your tying in the completely separate tunneling issue to try to make a point.
That's like me claiming Nea should be deleted because Bully squads use her to T-bag.
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Why shouldnt it be?
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Survivors need every help they can get...to continue winning the game they're already winning?
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There might genuinely be a dissonance with those who play purely survivor.
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Ok?
Play killer as well then?
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If the killer WASNT faster than the survivor, they wouldn't ever be able to catch up. It would be akin to chasing ppl as T1 Myers, but worse.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
As a killer main, I still don't think long term haste effects should be a thing at all. Haste breaks map balance. Killers shouldn't get it. Survivors shouldn't get it.
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Survivor frustration is the sole criterion for all decisions.
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Should definitely have loops to jump through.
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What an unintelligent thing to post. Openly even.
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So kill 2 survivors with camping & tunnelling before end game. And then with combo of NOED + NWO + Batteries Included get last 2 survivors too.
I am glad they adressed problematic perk before live servers.
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"And somehow that 1 person you tunneled out is the key to winning once you let everyone do gens?"
I think that's the crux of the strategy Quizzy is talking about. Tunnelling has, as a weakness, that other survivors can rush gens unpressured. End-game perks can compensate for that.
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Arguments are very rarely consistent around here (and we probably all do this to an extent tbh)
If it's about the other side perks are crutches, reward failure, should take skill to activate, are OP if they're popular.
If it's about the "good" side perks are supposed to be helpful, safety nets which is fine, bad or weak if they need conditions to activate, only popular because everything else is mid or to counter the other side's meta.
Anyways, I personally enjoy endgame builds and I somewhat understand the nerf but atp they should just stop haste from stacking or stop making new haste perks that will undoubtedly get nerfed.
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People always bring that argument that "killers are faster". I wonder how killers would get hits at 4.0 with pallets and windows in every map. If small percentages of haste can make survivors hold W indefinitely, imagine if killers were slower??
For those who says "killers are faster" i recommend playing Huntress without using her power anytime in a match. She is faster numerically, so this should be enough to end chases, Right?
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A player sacrifices a perk slot, that is completely useless during the bigger part of the match. Of course Endgame perks should be strong.
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T1 Myers is faster too and doesn't gain bloodlust. Try looping with him.
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I mentioned haste stacking because you implied that Batteries Included should not deactivate endgame. It does so that haste effects don’t stack (NOED, etc). You referenced Adrenaline and Hope which have stackable haste effects (although adrenaline’s effects expire). You created this analogy so I pointed out if you’re against one form of haste stacking (survivors, it seems?) you should be against the other as well. And then I brought up BL as an example of killer being able to stack latent haste abilities with a perk—which isn’t restricted at all. But you tried to say that’s meaningless b/c Bloodlust requires 15 seconds to activate, you can’t use a m2, etc. I don’t mind haste stacking either way but I see why it would be restricted on killers.
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Haste effects DO still stack, deactivating battery's just made so that 1 perk can't stack with NOED. Me pointing out adrenaline and Hope however was never about haste effects, but rather as examples of endgame perks. Endgame perks don't require someone to play poorly or well to activate... THAT was the point. Hope and adrenaline will still activate if 0 gens are done, 3 survivors are dead and you failed to find hatch.
I thought I outlined this point pretty clearly in my original post. Haste in general was never even mentioned, while Fire Up WAS.
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Ok… So you’re essentially saying endgame perks activate during endgame..?
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Where's the difference between that and what we have now? If 2 survivors are dead before end game then NOED will easily get you a 3k by itself. A 4k even, if you don't get too unlucky and slug one of them. This is almost guaranteed with NWO. Batteries Included doesn't come into play here.
Also, if a killer played the entire match pretty much perkless (Batteries Included is so niche that it would barely do anything) and they end up killing 2 survivors before end game by any means, doesn't that mean they should win? The killer could tunnel and camp just as well (sometimes even more efficient), if they had completely different perks and they'd probably win before the gens are finished against the same group. So that really doesn't testify to Batteries Included being problematic in any way.
It's a perk that has little use besides end game and even then is still inferior to NOED. Imagine, if they released a new version of SB that can only be activated around finished gens and lasts for 3 seconds instead of 4. Wouldn't that be a pretty terrible perk?
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I'm pointing out the argument people make around killer endgame perks rewarding bad play.
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