Nemesis has the lowest kill rate out of all the killers

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BOOTtoFACE
BOOTtoFACE Member Posts: 41
edited December 2023 in General Discussions

BHVR set the standard of 60% kill rate for all killers. Nemesis is below the 50% kill rate, far below the kill rate what BHVR has promised. 11.60% less than normal to be exact.

How would you bring Nemesis to 60% kill rate?

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  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 266
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    I feel like since we already have xeno which kinda is a buffed nemesis, idk how to buff him. Cause I would have proposed getting rid of zombies and making his power injure without having to be infected first, but then xeno and him are just copies of each other so idk. Don't wanna make him too strong but he does probably need a lil somethin somethin

  • I_CAME
    I_CAME Member Posts: 1,156
    edited December 2023
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    The opposite was true in the past. The nightlight kill rates were lower than official kill rates the last time they released official stats. In fact I remember most people on here were surprised that the actual kill rates were over 60% at high MMR. I don't think they are trustworthy for that reason alone. It would be nice if they gave us some actual statistics.

  • PotatoPotahto
    PotatoPotahto Member Posts: 250
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    1) Make zombies despawn if they get stuck

    2) Make zombies detect infected survivors better

    3) Give Nemesis aoe hit in T3 to hit both pallet and survivor or more than one survivor

    4) Make T1 tentacle longer

  • Ebonbane2000
    Ebonbane2000 Member Posts: 158
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    ^^This and then make the speed add-on allow the zombies to sprint in short bursts.

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
    edited December 2023
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    Tier 3 injuring and infecting with the same hit would be interesting to test imho

    Although that would kinda make vaccines useless, so I'd increase the base requirement to reach tier 3

    Idk I don't really like the idea but I don't see how his kit could be improved otherwise. His zombies are either useless or extremely annoying and improving the AI won't really change this feeling

  • Alice_pbg
    Alice_pbg Member Posts: 6,556
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    nightlight stats are never 1 to 1 with real stats.


    could be lower or higher by any degree and we woud not know. mostly because stats are just so rarely shared.


    faster and smarter zombies would be a good start.

  • moulesfrites
    moulesfrites Member Posts: 84
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    I liked your suggestion from your previous post. They could test that in the PTB but don't take my word for it. Like you said, Nemesis hasn't seen a change for more than 2 years.

  • TheSyndromeOfClowns
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    Buff his zombies.

  • Hadji
    Hadji Member Posts: 11
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    where do you get this info

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Nightlight is not representing the real numbers. So far the last comparisons showed that real killrates are higher. Nemesis would be more towards the 55% mark.

    To answer the question: I would not do a thing with Nemi because i find 60% killrate absurd and not ballanced. I also dont think he needs any form of change apart from numbers. He is strong, he is fine.

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 4,935
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    Change his power to be less focused on mutating the power of a whip and make it more about focusing on it mutating more like it did in RE3. Obviously it can't be a gigantic mess of a beast, but it can develop more speed, throwing Survivors, using more weapons and such.

    Change the infection power so that Survivors don't use syringes to become uninfected as that effect could be removed, but instead use the extra item as some sort of gas bomb to revert Nemesis' power to compensated for the fact he will become faster, stronger and gain more abilities.

    Basically, make it more dynamic. I'll keep the zombies though.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,160
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    his kill-rate was 58.5% in sept 2022. People need to stop using nightlight because... it is not creditable source of info for killer-rates. The killer is underpowered. his zombies suck and infection being 3 health-states is silly with little to no positives for nemesis player.

  • CLHL
    CLHL Member Posts: 131
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    That's true for stealth killers that destroy new and uncoordinated players, that's one reason why Wraith is always the recommended killer to start with. But the low level Nurses were also the ones that made her killrate bad, the same for other complex killers.

    0 kills is the most common result according to that data, I don't think less experienced players that play Nemesis mostly M1 will improve these numbers.

    There have been a lot of changes in the game since the last official data, it's not as easy as then.

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,221
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    I hope that Behavior somehow finds a way to add more zombies to the map. I am aware that there are issues with this and that two is the max?

    I just hope that somehow, someway they can find some possible way of adding more.

    If not then maybe let them move faster or be more of a threat somehow. I was on Haddonfield and one of them was stuck at an upstairs window next to me while I completed the upstairs generator.

    Please please please somehow please find a way to add more zombies 🙏🙏🙏

    If not then a zombie buff would be the next best thing.

  • ShowNoMercy
    ShowNoMercy Member Posts: 57
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    I see more Nemesis punching than actually using their power because it's so bad. His early game is very bad from my experience.

  • ShowNoMercy
    ShowNoMercy Member Posts: 57
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    That's a good idea. His infection is already non-threatening imagine they added your suggestion.

  • pizzaduffyhp90
    pizzaduffyhp90 Member Posts: 901
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    Since we can't get any of his weapons that he uses in the game. I made this a suggestion a long time ago.

    Nemesis gets a permanet 2% Haste affect in tier 2 and in tier 3 it'll increase to 3%. If Nemesis breaks 2 generators, pallets, or walls while in tier 3 he will have the ability to damage generators, break pallets and walls with a basic attack for a short duration.

  • jayoshi
    jayoshi Member Posts: 305
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    One very simple idea. Get rid of the ability to duck to avoid his whip. I never understood this. Ducking doesn't work for Alien's tail whip, so why does Nemesis's whip? I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times I missed a hit with his whip because someone ducked at a vault.

  • Sandt1985
    Sandt1985 Member Posts: 241
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    Nemesis should gain a sprint ability every time he hooks a survivor. Make it as fast and as long as the blight serum from the Halloween event, but with much better turn control and the ability to attack during the sprint. A Nemesis who can't sprint simply isn't Nemesis

  • woundcowboy
    woundcowboy Member Posts: 1,994
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    I think the overall kill rate is probably higher since NL is high MMR and most of the playerbase is bad at the game. That said, Nemesis is awful. It takes too long to level up the tentacle and he has to give up a health state to feed it. He might have been manageable when gen regression was still in the game, but he is dead in the water now.

  • zarr
    zarr Member Posts: 898
    edited December 2023
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    Nightlight's kill rates are taken exclusively from survivor-reported games. This means not only do you have a potential selection bias of the kind of data people generally like to submit (e. g. games in which they did well), but also of the kind of people that generally like to submit data (experienced players that would even know about a site like this and be interested in tracking stats). Basically, you have kill rates of randomly matchmaked killers against survivors that on average are on the more experienced side, and that would also be expected to play SWF more often and whatnot.

    That said, Nemesis absolutely deserves buffs. He is not weak, if you're good at him you can win most of your matches (because most players aren't stellar and neither is the matchmaking), and the strafe tech actually makes his tentacle fairly oppressive, but it is true that against a group of equally skilled and experienced players, he can struggle. Between having to first infect survivors and acquire tier 2 before he starts being menacing, his early game is lackluster and fairly abusable by survivors pre-dropping pallets, regularly forcing him to break them with his hands. Zombie AI has been improved but it is still not ideal. Many of his add-ons are lackluster (at best), and even if the zombie AI improvements have collaterally made some of his add-ons more impactful, it's just boring that most of them pertain zombies, an entirely passive "ability" you have next to no influence on or let alone control over.

    While his kit generally is underwhelming when compared to the kind of stuff Nemesis could have had and while there could be ideas for reworks that make his kit much more compelling, there's also plenty of ideas for simple adjustments that would already go a long way to make Nemesis stand out more. I think initially when they released Nemesis one of the reasons why they didn't do anything more complicated or powerful with him is that they expected a lot of new players to pick up the game because of the RE license, and they wanted those players to have a nice and simple enough time playing both as and against this iconic foe. But years have passed, the indeed many players that joined the game back then have either stopped playing or are perfectly experienced enough by now not to need that kind of hand-holding.

    First of all, one great way to improve the zombie aspect of his kit would be to give him the ability to remote-control zombies. They could make it so that he can look at a zombie or zombie aura and initiate an interaction that allows him to point that zombie toward a gen or a survivor (in either case both a gen or survivor aura and just ones that are within his line of sight). This should be simple enough because all it does is manually overwrite whatever "alert" and "target" state the respective zombie might be in. But if that is actually too difficult to implement, at least give Nemesis the ability to remotely kill zombies (again an action that pops up when looking at them or their aura), which would already help with getting zombies out of dead areas or spots they have gotten stuck in. As well as the ability to then point toward a gen that the zombie will respawn as close as possible next to (i. e. at whatever hook is closest to it).

    For his tentacle attack, there could at least be add-ons that affect things such as the range, the recovery time after attacking (successfully and/or unsuccessfully) or breaking a pallet, the movement speed while charging and holding the tentacle or after unleashing or cancelling it. If this is a tad oppressive, just make it scale with the mutation tiers, e. g. +1 meter tentacle reach for tier 2, +2 for tier 3. They could also make it so that his tentacle cannot be bodyblocked, meaning any survivor within its hitzone will be hit, even if there's multiple. Another idea is that the initial Contamination could incur no hit sprint, or at least buffing the Hindered effect on that Contamination (or at the very least buffing Licker Tongue a lot). Hell, being Contaminated could afflict a slight, continual Hindered effect, as well as other status effects, tied again to add-ons (Oblivious, Blindess, Exhausted, Mangled, Hemorrhage, ...).

    His mutation tiers could do more. Particularly tier 3 should be more menacing, such as by having it increase his movement speed to 4.8m/s (4.7m/s at tier 2), his tentacle both infecting and injuring survivors simultaneously at that point, making it so pallets he gets stunned with break automatically, or other, similarly notable power-ups. Remove add-ons that make it too easy to tier up too fast, if need be.

    A fair few of his add-ons need buffs. Just to take his painfully underwhelming Ultra Rares for an example: Iridescent Umbrella Badge almost never does anything because survivors are almost never anywhere near you when they vaccinate, and you then not only have to traverse the map to get to them, but also find and then manually chase them trying to get an M1. The amount of times this add-ons has gotten anyone downed in the history of the game even in the already awfully rare cases in which the killer even equips the add-on to begin with must be vanishingly low. Why not instead make it so that a survivor becomes Exposed when they become Contaminated? And the Shattered STARS Badge could instead increase zombie movement speed by 0.3m/s indefinitely, for every completed gen (1.5/ms in the endgame). It could also increase the attack reach of zombies.

    These are just various simple ideas for straight-forward buffs. Obviously they shouldn't implement all of this, but it goes to show that even very low-effort changes could improve things a lot for Nemesis.

    Post edited by zarr on
  • UnusedAccount
    UnusedAccount Member Posts: 130
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    If that's the case, I can only imagine what SM killrate actually is if Pros are struggling with her. Also, BHVR was right, Twins do have MONSTROUS killrate at high level MMR.


  • Sunbreaker7
    Sunbreaker7 Member Posts: 647
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    Nemesis, the 3-hit killer that cant get to final stage of his ability before the match is already over, yet Alien can thrust through pallets and windows similar to Nemesis but a lot faster and more efficiently. Also, the zombies are a complete joke.

  • mecca
    mecca Member Posts: 232
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    60% is not fair and balanced though.

  • DBD78
    DBD78 Member Posts: 3,455
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    Yes it is because it includes hook suicides which kills the whole team. This means kill rate in games where survivors don't give up is around 50%

  • MrT1412
    MrT1412 Member Posts: 93
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    Half my SM games someone DC's immediately. That's why the stats are boosted.

  • mecca
    mecca Member Posts: 232
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    That is not correct. They don't even count those you know, as a cover to hide how badly balanced the game is. The kill rates are probably closer to 80% if you count those.

  • MrT1412
    MrT1412 Member Posts: 93
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    Nemesis main here. I think Nemesis doesn't really need any chase power buffs. It's okay that he takes time to really build up his power, and I like the skill expression he has now.

    Zombies are the main issue with his kit. I think he should really have more zombies that are much more threatening. Zombies should have the speed and fov addons basekit, as well as react to all forms of info that the killer has. Auras, tinkerer, surveillance, killer instinct. Give him a third zombie too.

    As far as addons go I think they could make new effects for the zombie ones and buff the numbers on the rest.

  • GentlemanFridge
    GentlemanFridge Member Posts: 5,431
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    that is the point. There’s an intentional 10% bias towards killer.

    We had a whole thread about this like a week ago but I’m way too overwhelmed with uni work to go on a search.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,637
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    Are you one of those super-bad STBFL-Nemesis players? Because I notice that those are usually really bad with him and wont reach Tier 3 at all, because they think that their stacks are so important.

    I have no problems to reach Tier 3 with Nemesis really fast.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,637
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    As someone who played Nemesis a lot in the past, I would say that the Zombies dont really need much adjustments. But I also ignore the Zombies most of the time when I play Nemesis. They are a source for infection rate if needed, but nothing more. And I also think that there is a strong confirmation bias around the Zombies - if someone plays Nemesis the Zombies seem useless. If someone plays against Nemesis, it feels like there are 8 Zombies on the Map.

    Regarding more Zombies - the Devs tried it back then and apparently it causes performance issues. Not sure if this would still be a thing (I would think that increasing the number to 3 Zombies would be fine), but it might be a reason against more Zombies.

    IMO Nemesis needs an Add On-Overhaul (since most of them are not really good) and the small change that Zombies should not provide a Speedboost when infecting a Survivor (so when they hit a Survivor who is not infected). Because it should not be the case that a Survivor can get a Speedboost from a Zombie when a Nemesis is behind them who decided to not infect them.

  • plattenpanzer
    plattenpanzer Member Posts: 47
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    Nemesis is a joke survivors bully him with ease.

  • FreddyVoorhees
    FreddyVoorhees Member Posts: 324
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    Single use rocket launcher crate on a map. Insta down for all survivors in 6m area. Fixes everything. Or add zombie dogs / mr x addons.

  • HugTechLover
    HugTechLover Member Posts: 2,482
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    I think a decent change would be to take away the speed boost survivors get when infected by the whip. Shouldn’t give them the injured burst of speed.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 10,222
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    People do have a tendency of giving up when they see her.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
    edited December 2023
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    That said, Nemesis absolutely deserves buffs. He is not weak, if you're good at him you can win most of your matches (because most players aren't stellar and neither is the matchmaking), and the strafe tech actually makes his tentacle fairly oppressive, but it is true that against a group of equally skilled and experienced players, he can struggle

    Why would he need a buff when you think he is

    1) not weak

    2) you can win most of your matches

    3) has a strong tech

    4) only can struggle against experienced players

    That actually sounds more like he is fine / a little overtuned.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,227
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    Please ignore the name...


  • caligraph
    caligraph Member Posts: 359
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  • UnusedAccount
    UnusedAccount Member Posts: 130
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    Funny how most killrates get inflated because Survivors give up at first hook. Its like they can abuse this and try to get Killers they hate nerfed.

    AhemSpiritAhem

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 10,222
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    Funnily enough, some people actually tried to do that.

    It wasn't a coordinated conspiracy, of course, but it did happen.