why are all these new systems so bad?
the anti tunnel system only brought in MORE tunneling, the anti-camp system brought in MORE camping, im worried that the 3 gen "solution" isn't gonna fix anything and only make things worse. i guess it depends on how the system would work out, but if basekit borrowed time is only bringing in more tunneling, then how do we know the 3 gen solution will ACTUALLY fix the 3 gen problem?
survivors shouldn't be punished into a position like that all because they literally did their objective, its stupid. i really hope the solution doesn't make M1 killers even worse
Comments
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If by anti-tunnel system, you mean the basekit endurance... only reason I'd see of it causing more tunneling is if ppl bodyblock with it. If you won't let me hit your healthy teammate without hitting you first... I'm better off just chasing you now.
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If by the anti-camp you mean the anti-facecamp then yes there is now more regular camping because people can't facecamp anymore so if 1/10 people facecamped 4/10 camped and 5/10 didn't camp then yes 5/10 people camping is more but it did remove what they intended it to remove
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How did it remove what they intended to remove? I have played 8 chuckys out of every 10 games and he just stands there and the meter never moves, is he stealth, nope cause wraith worked fine but chucky is able to do it every time? Am I playing the same cheater every game?
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I will absolutely laugh if this 3 Gen system somehow makes it easier to do
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The systems are bad because they want them to be lenient. Because god forbid if Killers would not get massive value by standing next to the Hook.
I dont really see Basekit-Endurance as a real Anti-Tunneling Tool, it is more a fix for the big flaw that you had to rely on another Survivor having a specific Perk when unhooking you. But against Tunneling, Endurance does nothing, since all Endurance is removed by a single Hit.
I dont have high hopes for the 3-Gen Solution either. It will be very lenient, because Killers should be able to defend a 3-Gen, so I dont expect it to do much. Especially not if the Devs dont rework the Gen Placements, which sometimes spawn really dumb 3-Gens. I had a 3-Gen two days ago in Dead Dawg. Near the Water Tower, the house across the road of the Water Tower and the road itself in front of Check. You could see all Gens clearly when standing in the middle. Stuff like this should not spawn.
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Well they did say they still want survivors to have to think of their gen-spread. Like i dont even go for forced 3 gens. But sometimes survivors happened to prioritize the gens furthest away early. Leading them to a condensed gen spread at the end. The devs probably don't think the game should just let them get out of that scott free either. Especially if the killers not forcing it and its honestly the survivors fault for it.
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Yes, and it is correct that this is taken into account. But because of this, I expect the solution to be non-existent. And, like with their Camping-"Solution", a lot of work which could have been spend elsewhere.
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Anti - FACE - camp...
Pls guys... It's getting boring.
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i don't even see basekit bt as an anti tunnel measurement but rather just a qol improvement because getting farmed or not being able to trade at all without a specific perk was so cheeks.
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The anti - face - camp works as intended.
Did you see a killer facecping in your games? I for sure didn't see any in mine.
Proxy camping or camping in general was never intended to leave. The feature was implemented to battle the most egregious cases of the killer just standing directly at the hook aka FACE camping.
To say this over and over again is getting old.
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Almost nobody facecamped anyway. So the work put into this system was pointless from the start. Thanks for the confirmation. :)
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Hahaha funny joke
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Yep the best way to punish people for that would have been if they didn‘t know that it was there.
For example with perks that have something to do with hooks and those get the anti face camp status effect.
Reassurance, Ace in the hole, Camaraderie, Deliverance, …..
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Anti tunneling system? Did I miss something?
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Because all of these systems were forced into the game while completely ignoring the effect they had on the balance. The only thing that is achieved is to increase these behaviors among those who did not engage in them. An absolute failure.
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Oh gee, the Killer has to stand 15 feet away now, surely that's enough distance for the Survivor to make it to the hook...right?
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Nah but seriously, when I see someone do that to me and then they get downed promptly after, it is SO funny seeing them shake and go like "NONONONONO WAITWAITWAITWAIT-"
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The issue is that anti-camp and anti-tunnel measures have to meet the demands of forum killers.
Which means they can't interfere with camping or tunnelling.
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Thats not the point, people keep calling it "anti-camp" almost like they're trying to convince themselves that its supposed to do more than it does. Call it useless or weak but at least use the correct name for it so as to not inflate expectations.
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Please stop another ridiculous us vs them post. It seems like community does not get better in this part even when the new year comes.
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I have to disagree with you on that one. I get facecamped way more than I did before the "anti-facecamp" update.
Killers start by hard camping right outside the radius, even that happens more often than before. Then, as soon as another Survivor moves in they, the killer goes to the hook to deny the save. Or even better, they wait outside the hook radius until just long enough so that even if they do just face-camp the bar will never fill in time. I'd say it's impressive how many seem to know how exactly how far to stand or exactly how long to wait to make a complete joke of the system, but it's probably more that the system is just that easy to gimmick.
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So an extra hit you can to take is nothing, because killers can just hit you again. I guess if you got ten stacked Endurance effects after unhook that would be still nothing, as killers could just hit you again ten time, is this what you mean?
Is the only "Real Anti-Tunnel" you'd recognize as useful is being completely invulnerable until someone else gets hooked? Or is there a sweet-spot in extra hits that you feel would be acceptable, like five or three?
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The way I see it, these new systems are problematic because they were introduced to help fight against strategies that are valid. Sure, no one likes to be camped or tunneled, but every killer is allowed to do it. Therefore, a basekit mechanic introduced into the game to fight against those strategies cannot be too strong.
Seriously, has anyone felt protected by the basekit endurance? Or jumped off the hook because the killer was nearby?
These systems will never work the way people think they will. I believe it is best we use perks, instead of basekit mechanics because perks can reach the required level of strength.
And this isn't a flaw in design, because these perks aren't being used to handle a problem. They are being used to handle a valid strategy, that just happens to be frowned upon. So we buff DS, buff BT, make them disable at the end game if we must.
It would be better than anything these systems have to offer.
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I got face camped by a Bubba on the Game map last week. It was still very successful because the survivors all swarmed round, probably 5-10 metres away trying to get the save which just stops the meter completely. I was urging them to all go back to gens so that I could get my self unhook and take my chances with the nearby windows and pallets but they didn't realise they were killing me by all staying there whilst the bubba waved his chainsaw at anyone that approached to unhook.
Also as has been noted previously, so many killers just know the sweet spot to stand and proxy camp just outside the area that triggers the meter from filling. The mechanic has changed very little from what I can see because killers have just altered how they stay near the hook. If a killer wants, he can trade or tunnel and never have to find a survivor at all once the first one is hooked.
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That sure sounds better than them standing 2 feet away under the hook for 60s
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I just have to mention this real quick- It isn't a Anti-Camp system, it's an Anti-FACE CAMP system- It's not designed to stop camping in general, but rather the most egregious face camping such as a Bubba pitching a tent DIRECTLY in front of your hook so you can't get saved by anyone. So the system is working exactly as intended, but some of y'all are treating it as a complete failure on BHVR's part because it doesn't stop proxy camping and such.
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I didn't call it anything except ineffective at making the experience any better.
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Oh, I will take the bait.
The thing is, every form of Endurance is used to counter tunneling. The thing is, it is really bad at it. What does 80 seconds of OTR do? Nothing. Because it is gone once you get hit by the Killer. Same with Basekit Endurance. Same with BT. DH is also gone at this point.
So all of it resolves around Endurance and it needs only 1 Hit of the Killer to remove all Anti-Tunnel features. So a Killer who wants to tunnel, has a mild inconvenience, even if multiple Anti-Tunnel measurements are used (which resolve around Endurance).
You can be sarcastic and say "ten hits lel", but it is just a fact that Anti-Tunnel in this game is non-existent. If it would be somewhat impactful, you might see less tunneling, but currently, it is the easiest to just tunnel one Survivor out and after that it is basically farming points for you as Killer, because the Survivors will most likely not win with an early 3v1.
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it actually is way better than nothing, bar fills up in situations where teammates contest both sides and killer has to shoo them both. i got to self unhook 2 or 3 times already like that and once got it 90% because a teammate didn't keep their distance. not to mention killers need to be more careful with camping and give more opportunities to rescuers than times where they could just kiss me on the hook.
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I never said you did. I was talking about the perception that people (like OP) have about it, and how they're setting themselves up for disappointment.
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The more you restrict gameplay elements, the sweatier it's going to make players. Eventually, all matches are going to be the same gameplay loop. I mean, we've been seeing that for a long time now, with only three or four killers being chosen time and time again, and the same builds being used.
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Funny enough, it's not.
Before the new system, whenever that happened, it was a non-issue because survivors would understand that the hooked person is being camped and respond by either forcing a trade or coordinating a rescue. Whereas now, they believe the hooked person will be able to escape on their own, mostly because, barring Kindred, a survivor who approaches the hook and sees the killer rush right in front has no way of knowing how far the killer was standing before they got there. By the time they realize the killer is playing around the mechanic, the hooked person hits the second phase, to finally be rescued and immediately tunneled out of the game. Genuinely worse than before.
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I haven't seen it proc once, even when I thought it should've.
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Honestly, I think it is worse than nothing.
Because the time the Killer actually facecamped was almost non-existent in my game. And since the feature exists, I have seen it prog two times - one time where a hooked Survivor could have gotten off the Hook, but decided not to because Myers was standing in front of the Hook with Tombstone ready. And the second time when a Billy decided to "facecamp" a Meg, because he wanted to kill Ace instead, who did not contribute to the game at all.
And thats about it. And the thing what makes it worse is just that you get camped as Survivor, you see the Killer basically at the "line" around the Hook and you see your stupid bar and it does nothing. Which really makes it more frustrating.
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There is no anti-camp mechanic in the game at the moment.
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the only "downside" is just it teaches killers to proxy instead which is a better play in most cases. myers tombstone and self rescue needs work, and the other scenario can easily happen where killers let the person wiggle and they rat the other person out, that's not an anti facecamp thing.
obviously it's nowhere near sufficient and can be played around, but at least there is some thinking into it instead of just sitting there. my biggest argument with it is it makes killers leave enough room for a safer rescue in comparison to a full on facecamp.
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I agree they need to redo the generator placements a bit better. Hopefully that's their "solution" and not some faster generator progress based on proximity to other generators but I honestly am afraid that's what they are going to do.
Call me a pessimist, but I really think that this "Solution" is only going to end up punishing those killers who do not try to force a 3-gen situation from the start for survivors mistakes. Unless you are in a cracked Voice-coms S.E.A.L team SWF, you have no idea what your other teammates are doing for the most part still, so you can usually say "oh the killer forced a 3-gen!" but odds are unless it's one of a small handful of killers, no... just your teammates screwed up.
That's why I always bring Deja Vu now, to break up 3-gens, but even then I've had times where I've ended up 3-genned because the other solo survivors were doing all generators on one side of the map.
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Basekit endurance was a success. It was needed. It only punishes killers who actively tunnel off hook. Does it prevent tunneling completely? No.
To stop tunneling you need to give killers something to do that provides more value than tunneling. Tunneling a survivor out effectively reduces all pressure from survivors by 25% permanently. If there was something killers could do to get that much value instead of tunneling, they would be doing it. If you prevent tunneling completely but don’t give killers some other way to get that value, people will just stop playing killer.
The anti camping system, in my mind, was not as much of a success. Not because it encourages camping, like you say. But because people still camp in spite of the system. I’ve seen it myself on Cenobite and Bubba. It doesn’t prevent much on some killers. It does prevent outright face-camping so it’s not a complete failure.
Again, I think the correct solution for anti camping would be to give killers something to do other than camping that has much more value. Why chase survivors when you can just wait for them to come and give you another free hook? At lower skill levels where it may take someone much longer to secure a down, camping makes a lot more sense.
What is that thing that killers could be doing? The possibilities are endless. But the solutions we received are unimaginative and ham handed. Unfortunately.
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The problem is not that the systems are bad (although they are). The problem is the systems they come up with go against their reason for not doing a ton of other things that should be done because it "gameifies" the game.
The anti-tunnel and anti-camp mechanic should have been a single mechanic that was much much simpler than what they have now. Simply teleport the survivor if the killer is nearby the hook for some x seconds like pyramid head does to a hook that is closest to the survivor that is furthest from the killer. Make it pretty generous range too, like 12-16 meters. This mechanic is easy to understand rather than some bar that the other survivors don't know how filled up it is, or if they are in range of the killer so the far isn't filling up, or the killer to know how filled up the bar is, etc.
For tunneling, they simply need to get rid of the basekit BT, and give the survivor 0 collision with the killer, a ton of extra movement speed for 20 seconds and make it so that survivor can't do anything other than get healed. Gives them time to run to the other end of the map and get healed and is not exploitable by the killer. Also lets the killer know that someone who just got unhooked isn't going to hop on a gen immediately, and they are put on a little "time out" buying the killer time and further encouraging them to not tunnel.
For 3 genning, i'm sure they are gonna come up with some complicated mechanic that makes a killer do a math equation to figure out how much they have regressed a gen by in that game or short period of time so that now they have to figure out if they can use pop on that gen or if they should use it on a different gen. When the solution is much simpler. Simply even out the curve of the game. Keep the total gen times the same, but make the first few gens go slower, but the last few gens go faster:
I.E.
Current:
1st gen: 90 seconds
2nd gen: 90 seconds
3rd gen: 90 seconds
4th gen: 90 seconds
5th gen: 90 seconds
Total gen time: 450 seconds
New idea (numbers can easily be tweaked, but general idea remains:
1st gen: 130 seconds
2nd gen: 110 seconds
3rd gen: 90 seconds
4th gen: 70 seconds
5th gen: 50 seconds
Total gen time: 450 seconds
Same total gen time, but now the killer doesn't feel so pressured early because they lose 3 gens in the first chase, and they have a little bit more time early. Then, late game, when a 3 gen is in place, the survivors only have to power through a 50 second gen instead of a 90 second one. Meaning that the 3 gen is much much weaker at that point, because a single survivor pair being left alone for 30 seconds is finishing that gen. Not to mention survivors having toolboxes, prove thyself, or having 3 survivors hop on the last gen while the other gets chased, that gen is going down quick.
In general though, they keep coming up with these super complicated mechanics that both sides have to do math equations to figure out what the state of the game is, when they could be doing much simpler solutions that aren't gameable by either side that actually push the game into the most effective way of plying the game also being the most fun.
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What happens if gen 1 is complete while gen 2 and 3 each have 50% progress?
I think this would incentivize dog piling gens. And certain perks which enable that would become meta. You would see survivors piling a gen while a killer can’t really do anything to stop them on the last gen. The killer may get a few free hits but they are getting that gen done. So your solution would be extremely “gameable”.
Additionally, the easiest way to win as killer under those rules is to prevent the first gen from being completed. So perks like corrupt intervention would almost be required. Ruin would become meta again because its regression at 5 gens would be huge.
I don’t think these are problems that can be solved by tweaking numbers on existing systems.
However, if your goal is to make killers care less about the early game then you’d want to flip those numbers. So that as more gens are completed, the remaining gens take longer. Of course, I’m aware of how bad that would be for the game. That too would have even more problems. So I’ll say again, these are not problems that can be fixed by tweaking numbers.
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To stop tunneling you need to give killers something to do that provides more value than tunneling. Tunneling a survivor out effectively reduces all pressure from survivors by 25% permanently. If there was something killers could do to get that much value instead of tunneling, they would be doing it. If you prevent tunneling completely but don’t give killers some other way to get that value, people will just stop playing killer.
This same story gets regurgitated every time the word 'tunnelling' is mentioned. Tunnelling is not 'the only thing we have left', it's just flatly overpowered. If you want to make killers strong enough to not need tunnelling, you'd end up with a colossal inflation of kill and winrates for killers.
Tunnelling has to go. In part because almost everything you give to killers will also collaterally buff tunnelling.
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The thing that you give killers to do has to be basekit and in opposition to tunneling.
For example, if you only want to play the math game and not come up with something interesting, you could do something like;
Fear: Every hook state on a living survivor gives a token which reduces survivor’s healing and repair speed by 10%. This effect cannot exceed 50% healing and repair speed reduction. When a survivor dies all tokens are lost.
If you had three hook states on three different survivors, that’s 30%. That’s more value than hooking the same survivor 3 times by 5%. Congratulations, no one is going to tunnel. There’s no reason to.
How do you counter it? Don’t get hooked.
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And that had to go?
Did they say that they where trying to change this?
Not that I'm aware of.
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If nobody face camped, then I agree with you. It's was a waste of time.
But they wanted to get rid of facecamping. That was absolutely achieved.
Don't talk about an anti-camp mechanic if there isn't one.
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You cannot make something to encourage Killers to not tunnel because unless it's blatantly OP, TUNNELING WILL ALWAYS BE STRONGER.
Your suggestion falls into the former category.
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The primary idea was to make lose-lose scenarios where players had no agency less common.
That has been unsuccessful.
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That's simple, you make the total charges be removed be charges that have already been done first. So for example.
1st gen has 130 charges
2 gens are being worked on right now. One gen is at 120 charges, the other is at 110 charges.
10 second later the first gen pops at 130 charges, the other i at 120 charges. Now it gets knocked down 20 charges because it is the second gen. So instead of removing the charges at the uncompleted end, which would immediately complete the generator, you remove it at the completed end. So now it goes down to 100 charges, but it still needs 10 more charges to get finished. This prevents gens from popping one after the other.
It also encourages survivors to work on 1 or 2 gens at a time instead of splitting up creating more pressure earlier. Additionally it creates a cool effect that gen regression perks are stronger earlier. I.E. Pain res killing 25% of 130 charges is far stronger than it killing 25% of 50 charges. This also makes 3 genning even weaker because all the gen defense perks are naturally weaker later on.
Also, the answer to your "dog piling at the end" i think is not how it would work, but i'm not sure, let me do some math.
Imagine all 4 survivors hop the last gen, that needs 50 charges. In total, these 4 survivors repair at 2.2 charges per second. Meaning that the gen would take ~23 seconds to complete. The hit cooldown on a killer attack is 2.7 seconds. So if all survivors are healthy, and the killer hits these survivors lets think about it.
1 survivor: 1 c/s
2 survivors: 1.7 c/s
3 survivors: 2.1 c/s
4 survivors: 2.2 c/s
Gen at 0 charges:
Killer hits a survivor.
Gen at 5.94 charges.
Killer hits same survivor downing them.
Gen at 11.61 charges
Killer hits another survivor
Gen at 17.28 charges
Killer downs that survivor
Gen at 21.87 charges
Killer hits 3rd survvior
Gen at 26.46 charges
Killer downs 3rd survivor
Gen at 29.16 charges
Killer hits 4th survivor
Gen at 31.86 charges
Killer downs 4th survivor.
Gen would be at about 65% complete in this case. Now lets say they have prove thyself which adds 10% speed per survivor repairing, changing the penalty 15% to 5% per survivor
1 survivor: 1 c/s
2 survivors: 1.9 c/s
3 survivors: 2.7 c/s
4 survivors: 3.4 c/s
Gen at 0 charges:
Killer hits a survivor.
Gen at 9.18 charges.
Killer hits same survivor downing them.
Gen at 16.47 charges
Killer hits another survivor
Gen at 23.76 charges
Killer downs that survivor
Gen at 28.89 charges
Killer hits 3rd survvior
Gen at 34.02 charges
Killer downs 3rd survivor
Gen at 36.72 charges
Killer hits 4th survivor
Gen at 39.42 charges
Killer downs 4th survivor.
So this makes the gen be at ~80%.
In this case dog piling probably isn't a good strategy. Also, because the early game has taken longer, it is more likely that 1 survivor has been removed from the game already.
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Because they're not designed to solve the problems. Just fulfill a quota so they can be referenced when people complain.
I mean BHVR doesn't even need a PR team. Look at all the people defending these terrible systems in the thread alone lol.
Don't expect anything significant to happen to gameplay until there is a significant financial gain or the people who are in charge get replaced with those who prioritize gameplay over profits (not happening.)
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That's not enough though.
Regular game progression after the first hook is to have one person in chase, one on hook, one on rescue, one on gen.
If one survivor dies, it goes down to none on gen. So a 30% reduction is still 70% short. Killers would still tunnel with your suggestion, survivors would just be 10% slower after the first hook and 20% slower after the second.
You just buffed tunnelling.
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Worse than before but the way you described it is that survivors are the ones making mistakes while killers have already adapted. The solution is survivors need to be smarter and adapt as well. Its still better than straight up face camping because its a free buff.
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