Why isn't the 3-Gen Nerf Shared?
I was playing a match last night, going out of my way to 2 hook everyone. The survivors put themselves in a particularly bad 3-gen situation all on their own. It was like they had no map awareness at all. As soon as they realized what they did, they started running to the opposite side of the map everytime I got close. Often times I could get a hit, but chasing them was going to lead to a definite loss. They would inevitably heal up safely away from the gens and come right back. After deciding to commit to one the gen popped, as the survivors were free to work in absolute safety, and the match ended with 3 survivors easily escaping when it should have been a guaranteed 2k or 3k.
This got me to thinking about the 3-gen solution. While the gens were getting blocked from kicks, the survivors were free to play as normal. When the devs discussed why they were only allowing 8 regression events, they said it was because sometimes killers refused to participate in "normal" game play by taking chases. But why aren't survivors required to do the same by working on gens instead of running away, free to heal up as many times as they want. Why does the killer have to suffer a penalty and take the loss while survivors are handed a win for their own mistake?
Perhaps survivors should have a cap on the number of times they can heal to healthy. Neither roll should be relieved of the consequences of what should be a game losing mistake.
Comments
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The first sentence of your post is admitting to playing suboptimally then ends with you asking for a survivor nerf so you can play suboptimally and still win.
I don't get it.
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Probably because people don't WANT to tunnel and camp to win contrary to popular belief. Most killers want to go for multiple chases on multiple survivors rather than cheesing out a victory.
Don't you think it would be better if the game was balanced in a way that playing optimally was actually spreading pressure around and not going out of your way to eliminate someone as fast as possible? You'd see far less people camp and tunnel if it wasn't the most optimal way to win.
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You're not seeing the forest for the trees. This is a situation that can happen anytime. This time I was playing mostly chill because the survivors brought 4 anniversary cakes and I wanted everyone to get their points before killing anyone. But had I played normal and they still made it to a 3-gen the outcome would have been the same. They'd be free to avoid their objective until is was absolutely safe for them to do it and guarantee a win.
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I don't disagree. The game should be balanced around hooks/chases over kills/escapes.
But the game is not currently. So I find it odd to ask for a nerf that wouldn't stop tunneling because the user played inefficiently.
I don't think an honor system will stop tunneling. It has to be a hard-drawn line by the devs with ample compensation due to a loss of a playstyle.
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Agreed. I'd prefer if they took the approach of making tunneling unnecessary before nerfing it instead of nerfing it and forcing killers to go through 6-12 months of terrible games before fixing it. Thus something like giving a penalty to both sides to eliminate an undesirable playstyle would be a good first step. The same would go for a strong anti-tunneling mechanic. If the killer isn't allowed to touch the survivor, the survivor shouldn't be allowed to have a meaningful impact on the game.
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The "honor system" would be a good start though.
You balance the game around chases and hooks, and then introduce systems to fix tunneling similar to AFC.
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Nope. Not at all. That's what they should do, just like a killer should be allowed to defend a 3-gen. But it was decided a killer defending a 3-gen isn't "playing normally". With that in mind, survivors constantly running away from their objective isn't "playing normally" either. The nerf should be applied to both sides instead of strongly benefiting one at the cost to the other, especially since both sides can be responsible for creating the situation.
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Except the killer's objective is 'kill the survivors'. And the survivors' objective is 'survive'.
The killer was never meant to be a gen-defense bot, and the survivors have no obligation to just sit on a gen until the killer gets a free hit in or two.
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So why killers are camping and tunnelling in Lights Out mode? Heck, even they are slugging people for 4K.
That's mode pretty much favors killers. Survivors have not strong items or perks. So chases are most likely faster. But yet, killers are still going after one survivor who is just unhooked. Maybe people just love easy games?
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That sucks, but that isn't what we're talking about here.
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I know, i just pointed Reinami people won't stop tunnelling just because game balanced around hooks.
Back to topic, that's the point. Devs don't want you to stay in 3 - gen area and go after chases. I would simply rework maps and fix gen spawns but here we are. BHVR created this issue with 3-gen holders ( Knight , SM and Larry ) and they came with this fix. It's still not bad as i expected. But it can be annoying when you lose gens so fast and when you want to defend your last 3 gens as possible as you can.
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Defending gens is fundamental to a killer completing their objective. That's why killers have a basekit ability to cause gen regression and a dozen or so perks to cause gen regression or notify them when gens are being worked on.
Again, we're talking about "playing normally". Killers defending a 3 gen from the start and not taking chases unless it was completely safe to do so was decided to be not playing normally. The opposite should be true as well. Survivors avoiding their objective until they have absolute certainty they can do so safe from being hooked shouldn't be considered playing normally either. Both sides should be expected to take a risk.
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I personally didn't encounter that once.
But to answer your question? Because without gen defense, the gens go even faster in that mode. Try playing against a SWF with coms on that mode and tell me how it goes.
I'd also bet more truthfully, that the MMR for this mode is much more wonky, leading to matches being more wild in that regard.
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You didn't encounter ANY camping or tunneling? Really? At all?
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Survivors avoiding their objective until they have absolute certainty they can do so safe from being hooked shouldn't be considered playing normally either. Both sides should be expected to take a risk.
Survivors are literally never safe from being hooked. They are still taking risks by working on the gens where the killer knows they'll be.
It's the killer that's refusing to take any risks here by refusing to chase. That's what the anti-3-gen is for.
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Just my last match. This guy tunnelled one person out and at end game, slugged last one for 4K. We could not even finish all gens.
So killers are sweaty as they are in normal DbD. So i just don't believe killers would play more fair if BHVR balance game around hooks, they would just tunnel even more for easier games. They can't play chill even in killer-side game mode.
I am not against good slowdown for killers but it should not come without strong anti-tunnel mechanic and it should not reward unskilled killers as well. Skills should matter. Like how was braindead 3-gen strat and BHVR forced to nerf it.
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No, you're completely safe if you run away as soon as you see the HUD show the killer is out of chase or as soon as you hear the TR. Eventually the gens will be blocked to the killer so there's nothing to lose in running away until you know the killer is gone.
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You are safe if killer don't chase you to down and keep come back to gens. If you chase only for few seconds, ofcourse they won't be scared of you. And the thing you are telling is sounds like you are holding 3-gens which means this system will punish you. I don't see any problem here.
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That's the problem. The survivors created the 3 gen. It was a really bad 3 gen too. Yet in the end I was the one punished for it. Taking any chase was a guaranteed loss. All I could hope for was catching a cocky injured survivor off guard, but that didn't happen because they stayed across the map until they could be healed. When I finally had no choice but to take a chase because the gens were blocked, the other three easily finished a gen and escaped by the time it took to down and hook the 4th. The survivors put themselves in a losing situation but got an easy win due to the new system. They should have beared part of the consequences as well.
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"Please camp and tunnel so I can complain about camping and tunneling"
Your post in a nutshell
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yesterday it happened to me in lights out. 30 mins match. 2 survivors alive, 3 gens left total (not even close to each other). The 2 survivirs were only focusing in 1 gen, but they worked on it for a while, then hid. They were doing nothing else. I either kick the gen to stop its progress, or let them complete it... now repeat that for 20-25 minutes. I obviously ended up getting the gen blocked. At the end I won, but it was miserable, and something that can be easily exploited
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Even if this post was true (it's not.)
Doesn't change the fact that the most efficient strategy as Killer is to camp and tunnel.
The OP believes they were robbed of a win but then admitted at the start of their post that they weren't playing efficiently.
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Once again, you're focusing on the wrong thing. Or are you taking the position that 3-gens never happen in any other situation?
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"3 genning is boring can you please nerf it?"
"Ok you've nerfed 3 genning what you didn't tunnel and camp? Your fault you lost (if you did we'd whine)
You are making literally 0 sense the most efficient way is to Tunnel and Camp thats true you know what else is efficient? playing nurse with 4 slowdown and meta addons news flash not everyone wants to do that
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Sometimes killers do this thing we don't like so we want you to make it where they do more of another thing we REALLY don't like.
Make it make sense.
Tunneling sucks. Anything that encourages it is bad for everyone.
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If you're not playing efficiently you don't get to complain when you don't win. If winning was that important you would do anything you could to win. Including tunneling and camping.
My point is the solution to the OP's problem (not winning) was outlined in the first sentence.
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It's starting to seem like you're purposefully misunderstanding the entire point that was made. I've clarified it for you twice now.
Pretend I said "the survivors 3-gen'd themselves" because, well, sometimes survivors 3-gen themselves. It's not an unlikely scenario. The only reason I included that I was spreading out hooks was to get in front of all the "killers only camp and tunnel so you deserved it" comments.
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From the way I see it, the next time people claim that Killers can afford to play for hooks and not Kills, you can quote this game in reference. If you aren't stacking the odds in your advantage, (Great addons, good Killer, Killer sided map etc), you have to employ some form of strategy to win (Tunneling, proxy camping a Surv within 3 gen, Macro play etc)
Blindly chasing anyone you see or going out of your way to 2 hook everyone isn't a good strategy in general, it only works if the map isn't to your disadvantage and you end chases quickly.
Could you perhaps share the build/Killer you were running? Even without the 3 gen system, it is still not an easy task to hold a 3 gen against 4 Survivors without heavy regression perks.
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Ignore those auto-pilot killers who say tunnel or camp. They really use every justification in their killer rulebook to divert and distract from their choice of playstyle. It's all they'll ever really be able to do.
So, don't be like them. Be diverse! Learn from these bad losses and see if you can find an answer. Your 3 gen scenario feels bad. A loss like that will never feel good. But they will come.
Has this happened often? Or this one isolated case? Its still good for discussion, but i can't see this being very common.
Still, if running across map and healing is the answer to the 3-gen BHVR answer, then it will be changed eventually. Likely survivors will get a heal cap now. It's all people can do on the forums: complain. Nothing against you or your post. Its just fact. Most of the forum is just complaints to nerf the other side.
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Also, who was your killer? Im curious.
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It’s very frustrating that a system ostensibly designed to stop hardcore 3gen camping by killers (which is a boring and bad way to play killer) can so easily just become a massive get-out-of-jail-free card for survivors who cause the 3gen, and then those same survivors will blame killers for it is doubly frustrating. What exactly are killers allowed to do? At what point do survivors have to accept responsibility for their own mistakes? Or should the game simply continue to offer them a nice easy escape for every possible scenario they face, even those of their own making?
Post edited by H2H on5 -
Just cause survivors created the 3 gen themselves doesn’t give u the right to never take chases, dragging the game out for an hour. System working as intended as this is from a killer main.
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But they're killers not hookers. That's what you guys always say
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How are they 'completely safe'? Did they find infinites? Because barring that, there's no way for them to be completely safe.
You made the choice to prioritise gen lockdown, and prioritise keeping the gens from being done over getting downs and progressing your objective. This nerf is specifically meant to address that. You're not supposed to be able to lock it down forever anymore.
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Nothing that was obviously intentional, outside of 1 situation where i unhooked a teammate and they spent the entire time body blocking instead of running away.
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If you're chasing one survivor, you can't pressure gens. The other survivors are safe to work them. A 30sec chase in a 3v1 3gen is more than enough to end the game. Unless the killer is full meta, insta down they can no longer win 3 gens at 3v1
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That would imply that the only way they could win it before the 3-gen change was by locking those gens down for the full 60 minutes, and no, that did not happen.
Again, the survivor you choose to chase is not safe. Yes, you may lose that last gen in the process, deal with it. If you're just running around kicking gens and refusing to chase, you're not going to keep that last gen locked up either, anymore. And there's a number of killers that wouldn't let you do that, either.
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by the point you only have 1 generator left with 4 alive you are in a losing position. It should feel like you are losing. The same way if there are 2 survivors on hook at 5 gens the survivors are in a losing situation.
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Sure, the killer did not start the match playing efficiently, but the survivors played worse if they got themselves 3-gen'd. The new system lets them get away with it.
I was watching a DbD tournament video from before the anti-3-gen system and saw how many times the survivors healed up and reset to pressure the last gens. Killer's ability to defend the last gens was gutted. Survivors can still heal indefinitely. Two sides, but only one side was capped.
The only downside to capping the number of times a survivor can heal up is the big increase in Legion killers that would follow.
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not really... people don't like healing against legion.
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What if 1 regression state token was removed from each of the last 3 gens each time a survivor is fully healed?
Then the killer would be allowed to regress the gens indefinitely so long as the survivors heal up indefinitely.
If the survivors want the gens to be blocked from regression then they must stay injured.
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Not all 3 gens are equal. All we have to go by regarding their 3 Gen is OP's word of mouth.
We don't have the map or the gens or the killer he was playing.
But we do know a few things:
Four survivors were alive by the time there was one generator left.
The OP intentionally played suboptimally.
The OP exhausted eight generator exhaustion kicks seemingly on all three generators.
Based off of this, no matter if the survivors messed up their generator spread, they should still be in a better position than the killer at this point.
Giving survivors a very harsh nerf due to the consequences of playing inefficiently makes no sense.
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Lose 1? You're on last gen. They get it and it's gg. At that point, yeah survivors either over dedicated to gens and went down on them, or the killer over dedicated on survivors and lost
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i honestly don't have issues with new 3 gen changes but all this is true, they also said those changes wouldn't affect normal gameplay. turns out it does, survivors are free to not care about creating a potential 3 gen themselves anymore.
if it wasn't all 3 remaining gens cluttered together in a corner of the map and instead well-spread, taking a chase wouldn't be much of a throw since you wouldn't be leaving all 3 gens free to work on, without you around unless survivors have comms and perfect info which gen they should be doing at all times.
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Honestly, I doubt Legion would be affected much. If they count healing up from Mending as one of the cap variables, then Legion would be too much. Would become brainless gameplay (As if Legion wasn't already)
Still, as a survivor Solo'q'er, I'd say a healing cap might be alright. I don't think it should be 8 like the gens. 20? A friend of mine (New, sub 100 hours) said if they're is 4 survivors, the healing cap should be killer gen kick x4. Since that's 8 events, survivors could heal 32 times? Thats a bit much imo. Won't really affect anything.
UNLESS...
Healing cap is shared across the survivor team. 30 Heals for the whole match among all of them.
Still feels too high to matter.
15-20 sounds right to me, but I'd love other thoughts. Just shooting ideas while at work. :)
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It doesn't affect normal gameplay though.
Everyone assuming pre-running will work 100% of the time. The longer the match goes on the less resources are available and the more chances the survivors have to choke. It is also entirely dependent on rng, killer powers, and player ability.
If the survivors have all four up by the time there is one gen left, why shouldn't the killer be in a tough position?
That's what I don't understand about this topic. Because even if one survivor is dead the entire match gets skewed. This is why tunneling and camping is efficient, the point is to propel the killer into that favorable position right away to snowball.
Capping the amount healing required won't stop tunneling or camping, all it does is severely nerf survivor again to reward killers for playing badly.
So survivors should be rewarded in the war of attrition for having the maximum amount of bodies available.
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Well, that's very lucky then, I'm glad you've had a better experience than most.
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survivors aren't punished for 3 genning themselves anymore which was the main concern the 3 gen solutions would interfere with; before they needed to play aggressive and take risks or gens would regress but now they just need to play very slow and they win eventually.
but i mean i haven't formed a definitive opinion about the topic yet just saying it does in fact affect normal gameplay with a killer that doesn't play for a 3 gen from the get go. i personally just don't have issues with it and i actually like it; survivors caused the 3 gen themselves or not a match shouldn't last very long regardless.
but my other point stands, 3 gens can turn into a disadvantage if you don't play for it (which you can only do for a certain degree) against smart careful survivors that play it slow. you can't hang around too far away from all the gens remaining in the map but then survivors run light years away from them, putting you in a very awkward situation. this is the main reason i dislike azarov's and og suffo pit.
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Thats definitley not true, and the new mode showed that pretty good so far. People tunnel cause its easy win, its no skill needed, they can annoy others people, and can brag about it later in chat. Thats how it works.
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