Grim Embrace

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xEa
xEa Member Posts: 4,105

A friendly reminder that this perk, while clearly way to powerful, has not received it's well deserved nerf. We are aware that it might take some time to fully collect data and take action from your conclusion, but it is an absolute no-brainer that this perk should not work with DMS.

From there on, we have to see how strong it is, but if we let the 12 seconds per hook stage, the 40 seconds on 4th stage probably needs to be nerfed to 20-30 seconds.

Even with this nerf, i suppose it is still one of the best perks in the game, but it would not be close to gamebreaking as it is right now. Especially true on Billy, Nurse, Blight, Wesker ect

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  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,056
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    Devs will probably see how often this combo is utilized and the game outcomes before balancing accordingly.

    I played 6 games of survivor today and I have only seen Grim Embrace/DMS run in different games but not together in any game so I can't judge if this combo is really that oppressive

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,936
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    And it's not stronger then a well placed pop or PainRes, as always the unrestricted comboing of this effects causes some issues.

    I think the best way would be to introduce a couple of new perk classes (Gen regression, Gen repair, maybe Aura reading if it must be done) and limit builds to two perks per class. Maybe perks like Lethal Pursuer could raise the limit by plus 1 or don't count themselves, because of their supportive nature.

    Unrestrained builds has been a staple in DBD for many years but it's causing issues because of the vast number of perks, killers and combinations. Like when Awakened Awareness was nerfed because of Nurse, imagine if Nurse just couldn't equip it etc.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,142
    edited February 17
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    It's a no-brainer that it doesn't work with DMS. The two perks only have synergy if you, the player, aren't paying attention to when your team gets hooked. It's exactly like old Pain Res and DMS, you let go of the gen as the hook happens and DMS doesn't activate.

    As for whether it's clearly too strong on its own... I think it's a little premature to make that argument, we haven't really had it for that long yet. My gut says it's probably fine but mildly annoying on its own + more annoying with other stall tools added, but I don't know that nerfing Grim Embrace specifically is the right fix for that.

    I don't want builds to be mechanically restricted but considering how often we seem to come across this problem, maybe they should be for the game's health...

  • CrowVortex
    CrowVortex Member Posts: 949
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    As long as they don't nerf DMS again i'd be fine with it, myself i prefer hooking obsessions with friends till the end as an addtional tool for blocking a gen for full duration with DMS and FTTE vs DMS and Grim Embrace, aura read is nice too.

  • bjorksnas
    bjorksnas Member Posts: 5,231
    edited February 17
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    idk it only working on first hooks means you only get slowdown while you spread pressure, so even if its effect is strong when it works it only works when playing nice or just once for a while, at that point they would be better off running deadlock instead of 2 perks if tunneling

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,344
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    The devs are always slow when it comes to such things. Remember how long it took them to nerf MfT? I guess they still try to give it time and see if it won't up like UW where in a few months nobody will talk about it anymore.

    Though I must say, that it's pretty obvious that Grim Embrace + DMS can't be very healthy. The gens block and it leaves survivors in a pretty awkward situation like with 6.1.0 Eruption where they can't really do anything.

    How do you figure? It's the same counterplay that Eruption had back in 6.1.0. You need to wait a completely arbitrary amount of time and stop repairing the gen. So this combination slows the game even if you counter it. You stop repairing the gen before the hook happens to counter DMS. But now you also can't repair the gen again because if you do it will first be blocked for 12 seconds by Grim Embrace, which causes you to let go of the gen and trigger DMS regardless.

    Basically you need to stop repairing before the hook, then wait for Grim Embrace to pass and then you can work on it again until the killer gets to you and makes you trigger the rest of DMS regardless. So even if it doesn't work, it still works because you waste so much doing nothing in order to prevent DMS from activating.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,142
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    You can see the start of the hook animation through walls, and since DMS doesn't activate until the end of the hook animation + Grim Embrace doesn't activate until the killer walks away, there's an extremely reasonable period of time for you to keep an eye out, react, and avoid the synergy completely. Like I said, exactly like old Pain Res and DMS.

    What you're describing isn't the counterplay to old Eruption btw, there was no counterplay to old Eruption.

    Also worth mentioning that even if this combo did work the survivors could just move to another gen, it's literally just DMS after the hypothetical combo activates.

  • Nick
    Nick Member Posts: 1,201
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    The problem is it works best on the killers with high mobility. Which are usually the stronger killers anyways. Nurse, Blight, Billy, Spirit, Wesker, Oni. They all profit the most from the Pain Res, DMS and Grim combo

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,560
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    Can you please explain in-depth as to why you think Grim Embrace, by itself no combos, is "clearly way to powerful"?

  • KazRen
    KazRen Member Posts: 167
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    Honestly I thought this perk would be absurd especially combined with other slowdown but it's surprisingly not that bad. It's good but combined with the majority of slowdown perks it's still not too strong. The only time it feels too strong is with DMS which given DMS's history, I think they need to change DMS instead.

  • Azulra
    Azulra Member Posts: 399
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    Grim Embrace by itself is fine because the 4th hook block is designed to be a special reward for going after everyone instead of immediately tunneling someone out and the 12 second gen blocks is fine. The only thing that needs to be changed is DMS being able to proc on it. After that it'd be in a perfectly fine state in my personal opinion.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,142
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    DMS doesn't proc if the survivors counter it, and doing so is very easy.

    I really don't want my solo queue teammates to think they have to let DMS proc more than the killer forces it to because of this enduring misconception...

  • woundcowboy
    woundcowboy Member Posts: 1,994
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    I stopped running it, as I don’t think it’s any good. You don’t have time to hook all 4, and it’s better to focus one out of the game early.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
    edited February 17
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    You are very lucky then (or me being unlucky?). This combo is more or less in half of my games.

    It is stronger then the best pop you can have. I will come to that later.

    Exactly. It makes powerful killers even more powerful.

    I will try my best to explain why i think it is already alone a bit to powerful, even without the obvious combo potential.

    Lets compare it with other very strong slowdown perks, and the best to compare is probably Pain Res, another very good slow down perk (we agree on that, i assume) which also works with tokens BUT with the essential condition, that it has to be pain res hooks. I have games as killer where i cant get much value out of this because hooks are not reachable. Not with Grim Embrace. It works all the time, no matter which hook.

    The value of Pain res is in the best case 25% of a single generator. In total, we are talking about 100%, a ful generator, which is about the equivalent of 90 seconds of repair time. Now lets look at Grim Embrace potential. 3 hooks x 3 survivors x 12 seconds are already 108 seconds of repair time. Add the final hook stage on the 4th survivor, another 40x3, we come to 228 seconds of repair time.

    I think i can stop here, since it is undeniable that almost 4 minutes of no gen progress is better then 1,5 half minute of no gen progress.

    Technically, Grim is even better then Corrupt, if it would block all generators for the full duration.

  • Karth
    Karth Member Posts: 129
    edited February 17
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    Dead Man''s Switch, Pain res, Grim embrace is the most fun perk combo to face as survivor





    /s



    same can be said about FTP and Buckle op tho

  • SMitchell8
    SMitchell8 Member Posts: 3,301
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    Used it once with DMS just before lights out started, haven't played since lights out. Felt it was far too strong. Will be using it again tonight when I play.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,560
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    Theres a flaw with the comparison as pain res regresses the generator, meaning the work needs to be re-done on that gen. Grim embrace blocks gens, they will not progress but also won't regress meaning if the survivor waits out the timer, which is practical enough baring the 4th proc, they can hop back on their gen and possibly pop it assuming the killer doesn't come. In addition the killer cant practically control grim embrace unlike pain res [you can usually choose to save a pain res token by picking a non scurge hook, not a grim embrace charge unless you slug or cage them].

    In favor of the comparison though, that like pain res it requires different hooks to proc meaning like pain res survivors should know when its coming assuming their paying attention (or looking at the hud). They can play around it and can do things other than gens for those seconds its active such as go for the rescue, heal, chests, and totems. This adds a variable in the practical time its stalling like pain res [added bonus of making math worth less our childhood dream comes true]. Also like pain res, the ones not hooked yet can play more careful {hopefully still being practical though} to stall it procing [so used to hold w at a glance].

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Theres a flaw with the comparison as pain res regresses the generator, meaning the work needs to be re-done on that gen. Grim embrace blocks gens, they will not progress but also won't regress meaning if the survivor waits out the timer, which is practical enough baring the 4th proc, they can hop back on their gen and possibly pop it assuming the killer doesn't come. In addition the killer cant practically control grim embrace unlike pain res [you can usually choose to save a pain res token by picking a non scurge hook, not a grim embrace charge unless you slug or cage them].

    Please explain, whats the difference between no progress gain and progress loss? Besides maybe the psychological factor.

  • Brimp
    Brimp Member Posts: 2,788
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    On its own is not really that powerful until you get all 4 unique hooks. Overall doesn't really need a nerf on its own.

  • glitchboi
    glitchboi Member Posts: 5,962
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    GE is great on its own, it's my new favorite slowdown perk alongside Gift of Pain. The only issue is its synergy with DMS.

  • Chiky
    Chiky Member Posts: 636
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    i think the problem is pain resonance tbh

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,560
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    In our simple mind no progress gain (blocked) means a gen thats near complete will most likely be completed as soon as whatever is blocking it finishes while the progress lost (regressed) will actually need to be re-done and has a higher chance of not being finished. Blocking gens is like a dam effect. Lets say a gens at 95 percent and close by the killer. If blocked and the killer chases the survivors off, that gens gona still be at 95 meaning someone can easily swoop in and pop. If regressed then the gen will be at whatever hit it while you chase them off meaning more time bought. Depending on the situation one could be better than the other but this is how we see it.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Well, the effect is still more or less the same. The gen with PR will loose 25% and wont be poped instantly. With GE, it is on a single target a little bit less, but the effect stays the same. It will be repaired later. I think it is only psychological.

    The kicker is, if we dont care if a gen gets completed or not, it will get repaired shortly after GE / PR. If we care to defend that generator, we can make our way towards the gen and kick it with pop or just regulary and hunt survivors in that area.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,560
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    We're not talking about combining it with pop though, this is wholly (however you spell that word) about grim embrace alone (while technically comparing it to pain res or other regression/stall alone). With regression perks its more likely that gen gets finished alot later though rather than with blocking (depending on the regression), especially when that blocking is 12 seconds. The 40 seconds would be better but it requires you to down and hook everyone.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    I was just using this as an example.

    The bottom line is. If a generator is loosing 25% of progress or cant be repaired for the equal duration makes it more or less the same. Re-repairing or waiting out the block is no difference in the sense of progression.

  • Azulra
    Azulra Member Posts: 399
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    I know that, but survivor mains just simply refuse to learn anything new now which is really annoying because that's why anything from the killer side is new survivor mains start to complain nonstop even if it's something that isn't really a problem from both sides.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,560
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    What we're believing is that you believe that the blocked gens are better than the regression and that is the reason you think Grim Embrace is overpowered. We'd argue that the regression is better, but if we keep at it we'd both deviate from the topic by arguing which is better.

  • RhysVMT
    RhysVMT Member Posts: 107
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    brother nurse has been left unchecked since I started playing the game 1 year ago, and has actually received a net buff with the lunge addon change earlier last year. they will leave grim embrace as is for 2/3 months as it will sell artist chapters (one of the lowest pickrate killers) and its another tool to hold killers hands on top of the 8+ other meta slowdown/aura read perks they can choose from. sooner you realise that the devs dont care about balance and want to shale things up for no reason from time to time, the better

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    No, i dont think either one is better. But i think 228 seconds of potential slowdown (GE without DMS) is better then 90 seconds (PR)

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,951
    edited February 18
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    Grim embrace is automatic pop goes weasel on every single gen. in one way, i hate dislike playing vs gen-blocking perks. In another way, the pain res+grim embrace combo describes how killer matches are suppose to work for killer.

    If killer doesn't flop any chases and has good game-sense to find survivors, then they're suppose win. that is exactly how perk operates. If you outplay the killer in chase, you win very easily with strong team but you lose if killer is successful.

    Pain res add an entire 6 gen for a survivor to repair. my issue with the perk is how easy it is to proxy camp with the perk. a killer can slap on deadlock+grim embrace with pain res as side perk and hook a single person at the start of the game, then proxy camp with gen-blocking. a survivor hook-trading punishes survivor team so your almost incentives to just let survivor dies on hook when a killer proxy camps with grim embrace.

    I like how perk does incentive hooking all 4, but i dislike how the perk encourages passive gameplay as "best" reward. arbitrary, it would be ideal if the perks encourage proactive/aggressive play while still encouraging spreading hooks.

  • GroßusSchmiedus
    GroßusSchmiedus Member Posts: 456
    edited February 18
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    Stop comparing Grim Embrace with perks like Pop or Pain Resonance.

    Regression perks force survivors to spend more time on gens, holding M1.

    Grim Embrace blocks generators completely but doesn't force survivors to hold M1 longer in total, they can heal, do totems or whatever, its a break.

    If anything, Grim Embrace should be compared with No Way Out that blocks progress for even longer for essentially doing the same thing. I see no reason why Grim Embrace by itself can be considered OP when No Way Out activates for longer period during the time that the anti-camp mechanic is disabled. Its clearly the weaker out of those 2.

  • SMitchell8
    SMitchell8 Member Posts: 3,301
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    Grim Embrace is invaluable atm. One of my biggest killer failings is I end up spreading hooks too much thus run out of time. GE rewards me for doing so, especially when you use pain res on the second hook for each survivor 😅

    2 wins from 2 as Knight with Grim, DMS, Pain Res, Surge.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Its as good of a comparison as with any other slowdown perk. It slows down the game - and it is completly irrelevant in what way. All the diference are simply psychological nature. DBD is a race against time, obviously for both sides. How you gain more time is not relevant, at least not if we compare.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,936
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    Grim Embrace really profits from some detection perks, but it can't be Nowhere to Hide, as you can't kick blocked gens.

    Slowdown is meaningless if you can't transform it into pressure. I have entire Grim Embrace lol 4s run out without me being able to find a survivor and the hook long cold when I returned to it (didn't want to camp). This way it just wasted everyone's time, as no one could progress the game ... well, not true, the survivors did heal, so they came better out of the forced break then they entered it, e en though they couldn't work on gens.

    This makes Grim Embrace much much healthier than Eruption during its haydas

  • GroßusSchmiedus
    GroßusSchmiedus Member Posts: 456
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    It is relevant.

    Gen regression forces survivors to hold M1 at a generator, which means they have to physically be near it making them easier to find and apply pressure and can't do other things like heal. Gen blocking does not and its a huge deal.

  • Ariel_Starshine
    Ariel_Starshine Member Posts: 937
    edited February 18
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    I was wondering why generators are basically blocked for forever in my games. I just looked up what GE and DMS do. That's why I can never finish repairing a generator.

    Ugh, I may as well switch to a gen rush build then. Feels bad when someone occupies the killer for so long and I'm either standing there or running around because a buncha generators are blocked.

    I also am very, very good at hiding from the killer and I notice lately they waste SO much time looking for me, and no wonder, they want that 4th token. Now that I know this I'll up my stealth even more I guess.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Agree to disagree. Sounds like skill issue tbh.

    That is the issue. Even tho bringen the best gen rush build and toolboxes, this still wont compensate for the slowdown, DMS & GE provides for killer.

    The perk should not automatically win the game, but what it provides is a lot, much more then other killer perks at the moment. If for whatever reason killers cant transform slowdown into pressure, then this is not an issue with the perk, very clearly.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,936
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    That's true, a strong perk shouldn't automatically win you the game, which is ny point. The gen block of Grim Embrace is useless, if you can't capitalise on it, and that's directly linked to the survivors in question behaviour. If they lay low and hide efficiently and effectively, it comes down to a game of luck (and a little bit of skill and experience) to find anyone, unless you want to camp out that last survivor you put on he hook and only have to defend then for 15s beyond the 45 Grim Embrace timer. You can do that, but it's not very fun for anyone, killer included.

    Which is why I love making room for Spies in the Shadow, my guilty pleasure info perk of choice that literally flies under the radar of most players and gets a bad rep. Its like having eyes in the back of your head and helps immensely when survivors lay low and play super stealthy, just barely out of sight.

    BTW it's my time playing as a survivor that thought me how often the killer is right on top of a sneaky survivor bit just barely miss them, it's part of the games design with 1st vs 3rd person POV and all that. Much hot air about nothing, but what I wanna say is this:

    Tl,dr Grim Embraces power is directly linked to the killers ability to pressure survivors during its uptime, so try to dedicate one slot to perks that help in that regard.

  • GroßusSchmiedus
    GroßusSchmiedus Member Posts: 456
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    I agree that you got a skill issue if you can't differentiate between gen regression and block.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
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    Tl,dr Grim Embraces power is directly linked to the killers ability to pressure survivors during its uptime, so try to dedicate one slot to perks that help in that regard.

    For sure you are right with that. That is why i personally think UW pairs extremly well with GE / DMS.

    Cute.

  • North85
    North85 Member Posts: 111
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    Grim Embrace is fine, it's anti-tunnel, but sure, get it nerfed, so killers go back to tunneling hardcore again.

    Solo queue survivor mains, I swear...

  • Azulra
    Azulra Member Posts: 399
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    MFT was a problem in of itself because it was essentially the same problem as Ultimate Weapon which means it wasn't hard to trigger at all and screwed up the general flow of the game.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,560
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    Fair and you do make a good argument its better than Pain res, but we still do not see Grim Embrace as OP by itself. Overall the practical time wasted less than what it seems. The potential time is altered by the fact that after those 12 seconds (or 40 in last case) they hop right back on the gen with all the progress saved, even if chased away someone else can easily swoop in, pop it, and run off. It doesn't affect survivors already looking for a gen and could invertedly help them (ex: they find a blocked gen with lots of progress already on it while pain res might have crippled said gen). And again it allows survivors to focus on other things like healing making future chases harder (though does kinda help solo Q). Its Its a good combo piece, doubt anyone will deny that, but alone its only good and not OP.

  • Caiman
    Caiman Member Posts: 2,211
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    Survivors want killers to stop tunneling and spread hooks, but then get mad if killers are rewarded for spreading hooks.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 4,105
    edited February 18
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    I am not a survivor main, i am leaning towards killer. And still i want it to be nerfed. It is simply to strong of a perk. Bring it to a ballanced level and i am all for it. PS. I run this perk on every killer all the time right now.

    As if this perk would stop killer from tunneling. It only makes it more effective.