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What's with camp + tunnel meta?
Lately, it seems like every survivor game I've played has had killers camping just outside of the radius so that the unhook meter doesn't increase, and frequently tunneling the first hooked survivor (so that it's 3 hooks in, only 3 survivors left).
I've been playing this game for years -- I have over 2000 hours in this game -- and if anything I'm a killer main, although I'd estimate it's probably 60/40. I've never been one to complain about killer behavior; I almost always think it's just survivors being poor losers, or being so toxic that they provoke the killer into playing like that.
Except I don't bring items or map offerings, I don't teabag, point, or click my flashlight, or unhook in the killer's face, and I don't spend the whole game hiding, throw every pallet I come across, or sandbag other players. I short, I play as fairly as I can, and I play to win without being toxic about it. I do my best, and I just want to have fun. And I'm nearly always solo queue. I'm not doing anything to provoke killers or make them feel like they need to camp/tunnel, and from what I can tell the other survivors usually aren't, either.
I could understand camping every now and then. But it's at least 80% of the games I've played over the last few months (at least 50+ hours of survivor gameplay). And I get that killers want the 4k, just like survivors want to get out. But it's not tunneling out the survivor who's always there with the flashlight save, or who keeps going for the head-on stun, or whatever; it's just methodically marching through survivors one after another, because hide-and-seek is boring and it's easier to just wait for survivors to come to you.
When I ask killers why they play like this, their responses are a version of "Well, I obviously won so it's a good strategy" or "waiting more than 16m away from the hook is fair, which is why that's where the self-unhook meter stops increasing." (Or the "mad bcuz bad"-type responses from small children who are upset that Mom scorched their dino nuggies.)
Did I miss the memo? Did Otzdarva start encouraging camping and tunneling right from the first hook, or something?
Comments
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3 Gen defense recently got nerfed.
There's no real benefit to spreading out hooks.
The community is obsessed with trying to "balance" DBD that it just results in people being very comp minded and focusing on how to best optimize wins.
This one is my opinion, but I see survivors hate on killers for practically everything regardless of how the killer played. Makes trying to play nice not very rewarding so you might as well just play to win.
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It's easy, it's efficient and it's difficult to counter.
Perks support it, you get more value from perks like Deadlock and PGTW whilst still being able to use perks like PR or NWO afterwards.
Plus, there's a significant portion of the community that enjoys making sure the other side has a terrible experience and derives joy from it, so obviously anything abusable is gonna be a holy grail to them.
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Real talk if you're found first don't be afraid to predrop pallets sometimes if you know you're not gonna be left alone the rest of the game.
I play every game like I'm against Oni and it works for me, if they wanna tunnel I'm gonna make it as difficult as possible for them so even if they do tunnel me out by the time it happens the gens are done. If I'm lucky I frustrate them to the point of leaving me alone.
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Because it's the most efficient way for them to get their "deserved" 4k and claim all the tunneling was "necessary" as their justification for it.
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Even in such an environment, advanced survivors boast a 60% escape rate.
For those who don't, it might be a good idea to take a moment to think about why they are different.
By the way, these survivors all agree that tunnels and camps are tactics, and while it's true that they may not be fun for survivors sometimes, but counterattacks are possible.
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The answer is the same as it is to the question "what's with the gen rush meta?" Both sides are going to play in the most efficient possible way to win. If you don't play killer, I suggest you try so you can understand why camping and tunneling are sometimes necessary.
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Where did you get the 60% number? According to BHVR's own stats high MMR survivors have an escape rate of 43.09%.
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We literally just got stats that show that high-mmr 4-man SWF's escape 48% of the time
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they talking about some x comp killer player who now mainly play survivor apparently. The only reason I even know this is cuz they post the same comment in three to four different threads.
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It's the easiest way to win and countering it requires telepathy or near peak efficiency from all survivors to counter it. The effort-to-effectiveness for the killer far outweighs the effort-to-effectiveness of the counterplay. Camp+tunnel is highly effective in a competitive setting where the survivors all have 5k plus hours, tight comms, and scrim all the time. Imagine how effective it is in the average public match.
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60% escape rate in solo q would literally be one of the best players in the world. Meanwhile it's normal for average killer players with meta perks to have a 75% kill rate.
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This is proof that advanced survivors do not find tunneling painful.
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The Survivor reference is spot on. Regarding the kill rate, I believe that mistakes on the part of the survivors are largely responsible.
Most survivors lack knowledge. Many of the reasons are here. Because it discounts a lot more to learn than being chased by a killer. The number of defeats, especially against Freddy, clearly shows this. Anyone who understands game balance can understand that.
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Painful...?
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🤷♀️
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The Killer is still averaging over two kills.
That isn't even close to your proposed SIXTY percent escape rate.
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This video clearly shows what many of the people who criticize tunnels and camps are like.
The first survivor should have left the area after taking the first hit, and if he was going to be knocked down, it should have been done far away. This is what makes the killer camp.
The second person has the worst pre-positioning. Why did you go out of your way to hide in a place where you would be locked up? Naturally, he take one hit from the killer.
It's still better, but the third is should have made it clear be hide or rescue. The situation will get worse.
After the game, they'll say, ``The camp ruined the game.'' This is the reality.
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That's how you do, if the killer wants to tunnel you, make it as difficult for them as possible. WoO is the most used survivor perk, but apparently auras are to difficult to understand for most players.
Now all your teammates have to do, is pressure gens. If they dont, they are the ones at fault. There should never ever be a survivor dead at 4 to 5 gens.
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The average of 10 and 0 is 5, don't stop thinking.
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Did you not read the new stats where do you get this 60% the devs have shown the kill rate is 60%. Both sides cant have 60%
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First, at high MMR, almost 50% of survivors escape. And the possibility that there are some survivors escaping more should be understood by the following arithmetic.
(45%+45%+50%+60%)/4=?
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That math still doesn't add up to 60% also the math doesn't work because the SWF escape rate is only 48% not 50. You are just taking numbers out of blue and hoping they work with your explanation but none of your numbers are data based just numbers you wished were true.
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This probably isn't true, but...
I feel like the anti-camp feature has incentivized killers to camp. Where once there was no skill expression, there is now a new feature for Killers to learn to play around. As a result, players have preoccupied themselves with learning the limits of the new system and finding ways to "out-play" it.
Camping & Tunneling have always been prevalent, so its hard to say whether or not it's gone up. I just know my tolerance for it goes down with each game.
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The meta is tunnel someone out at 5 gens or try and spread out hooks (and then lose) and get told ggez while being teabagged
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I was thinking something similar. Camping always felt like a bit of an exploit, which might've left people a little uncertain about whether or not it's permissible.
But now that we have this system, it means BHVR looked at it and declared it fully allowed. Just practice social distancing so you don't infect the survivors with your terminal case of competitivitis.
The 'anti-camp' feels more like a tacit green light.
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Let me just repeat myself:
Why is everyone so shocked still about tunneling?
This game is about kills and as long as it is about getting kills and MMR is based on that and only that alone, nothing will change.
You can try some bandaits or nerf tunnel/camp people still will and find other ways to get kills the most effective way.
Only way how to change it is to make the game around hooks but then you also need to give killers time (and motivation) to be able to 12 hook everyone because atm there is no way you can do it even on A tier killers unless you face baby Survivors.
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I'll point out your mistake. One person's performance is on average 60%, another person's average is 50%, and the other two are on average 45%.
If you are 50% and 48%, there is a big difference! It's different! If you say so, just change the remaining two people to 41%. There's no point in that.
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Besides perks usage % , stats don't tell you anything in DBD. Also don't be suprised that going for kills / escapes + using the strongest tools becomes meta if you make that win condition pretty clear. Before MMR ppl also played for pips, which could mean a win even with under 2 kills or no escape as survivor.
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I mention it because it may need some explanation. The average is only determined from the whole. Even if there are no 50% of people in the world, if there are an equal number of 60% people and 40% people, the average is 50%.
If a killer's kill rate is 70%, there may be a polarization between survivors who are killed at 90% and survivors who are killed at 50%.
In addition, what the development has shown is only for January, when MFT was weakened and the 3 gens system was not functioning. What we should really refer to is the total for the past year. Some players know what this means.
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Use Off The Record + Decisive. Even if you're bad you can waste the killers time a lot.
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So you -want- to use data not reflective of the current state of the game so that the results better align with your biases?
Why stop at the past year at that point, why not take MoM release day's killrates instead?
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As someone who mained killer forever and I know both sides are bots. Killers after 6.1.0 have gotten worse. They'll take kicking a gen over a free hit 85% of the time and they preform bot like actions everytime.
It's not to say survivors aren't the same. I know my mmr on blight is very high from how abusive I used to be of his add-ons in the past and I take every step via time and day to get the most accurate match. But even then, I only get a real game 1/3 times vs people who actually know what they are doing.
I used to endorse slugging/tunneling and camping as killer for the first 9 months because I thought it made the game less linear, but that turned out to not be the case. Every killer seems like a bot due to low skill level and them playing around these things(besides slugging).
I used to call survivors bots with perks in the few months leading up to 6.1.0 but now killers are bots with strats(ironically these strats besides slugging at the right time nullify brain power).
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
I'd like to think that some sirvivors simply dont want to use the same strategies as themselves:
- Each survivor focuses 1 gen from start to finish: "thats normal play"
- Killer does the same to 1 urvivor: "tunnel bad"
I think people simply subconsciously block themselves from seeing that tunneling is what survivors do as "normal gameplay"
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My guy, if a survivor laser-focuses on ono specific gen, he's throwing. It'll be way too easy for the killer to interfere and neutralize.
It's a completely false equivalence. Or do you think survivors should, basekit, be able to recover hookstates too?
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Do I have to say which is more accurate, a month or a year? If you want to move away from statistics, go ahead. And it seems that my annotations were ignored, so if you want to be fair, you can compare them with February and March respectively. If the development is announced.
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You mean the game should be balanced around 4 kills every match?
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No, it should be balanced around Killer having a time to go for hook stages rather than kills but that is not possible atm without playing A+ killer and full slowdown build.
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Like balanced around to killer to have enough time for 12 hooks, means 4 kills?
you also need to give killers time (and motivation) to be able to 12 hook everyone
^ Can you explain the line above??? ^
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Might be worth testing.
How about in the same ptb we test regressing completed gens. Both sides have irreversible failstates.
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No no, regressing a completed gen would be like resurrecting a killed survivor.
You don't need to say it, you just need to think about it.
Do you really think that statistics from literally 10 patches ago are going to be relevant to the current state of the game?
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Who cares about the tens.
Sure, I can probably go multiple months without losing a game as Killer, that doesn't mean I can use my 96% kill rate as a justification for massive killer nerfs.
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its really simple:
suvs try to do gens in an intelligent way (from inside to the corners of the map)
(for those who are unable to notice that strategy on their own we got the anti 3gen mechanic now :)
suvs try to run as many rounds as they can around a palett befor they drip it
suvs try to finish the gen which is 95% done and maybe take a hit when they see the killer is nearby (with the aim of a finished.gen)
suvs work on one gen instead of dokng just 33% and then go to the neyt gen
now lets take a view on the killer siee:
is it efficient to make 3 1st hook and still have 4 suvs in game or is it more sensful to have 3 hooks on one suv and got only 3 suvs left?
there u got ur answer
a d same to finish a gen while the killer runs towards the gen: the killer forces the next stage for the suv which is on the hook :)
just in case u wanna tell me this isnt fun:
if suvs play against a baby nurde they also dont try to balance it for this nurse (killer is an example)
everybpdy wants to win and thats the reason why tunneling is so often used
if u are afraid of tunneling, run OTR and DS
go down near a window, the killer picks u, u run ds and directly jump trough window… its really that simple
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It's the most efficient way to win matches as killer and if you're really bad it compensates for having to win mind games and pressure the map.
I have proven time and time again to myself that you don't need to tunnel and camp in public matches and if they made it so tunnelling was punished harder it would really only affect comp players and people who play like this in public lobbies.
Personally I don't care about comp players and I would like to see hard tunnelling punished as it really does create a miserable experience for the person being tunnelled out of the game.
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Yes, but the game can't be balanced around psychic counterpicks. You have half a dead build if you don't get tunneled with those perks. It's like running Bamboozle on Gideon's. If we're making it a counterpick game, we need info in the lobby (not that you're going to see tunneling in the pregame lobby, but still). If it's not a counterpick game, then the counters need to exist as base. It can't be both.
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I don’t see nearly the amount of tunneling/camping most people do while playing way more than most. I think there are a lot of matches where people blame camping or tunneling when in reality it was them making lots of mistakes, the killer capitalizing, and them taking no accountability. I see this from random teammates in solo queue after chat all the time. Not saying it doesn’t happen a lot, just way over exaggerated as an excuse when smarter decisions or playing better would have changed what happened.
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I want to get someone out of the game as fast as possible since it makes the game easier on me.🤷🏿♀️
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This is incorrect. The stats that BHVR published 2 weeks before you made this post, show that advanced survivors have between a 39% and a 48% escape rate, depending on their party size. Those numbers are less than the 60% you claim.
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Bad Maps that make survivors stronger in the 1v1 than most killers mean its easier to just proxy camp the hook and trade or tunnel the same guy out FACTS.
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As I have pointed out several times, this is an "average" between the top players. If that's not the case, then there shouldn't be a killer player in the world who boasts a 90% kill rate. Right?
Let's study statistics.
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I'm pretty sure u dont even play killer at this point never mind have a 96% win rate.
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