"Working with THE KILLER" ? @BHVR
Hello DbD. I know you guys have heard of me and have probably already formed an opinion on this subject, but let me start with saying that I am a big fan of the game and of your development process, as well as your commendable candidness ever since the game was released. I am also an old legacy player and a fanboy of the game and its lore as it was presented at launch. I humbly ask for the opportunity to have an open conversation loosely related to the report category mentioned in the title. I have not been banned, this is not an appeal, and I have no ill intent toward anyone on the forum, the dev team, or in the game. I do not condone cheating, griefing, or violating the spirit of the game. I just noticed the recent change and wanted to point out that it is phrased in a logically inconsistent way.
The core of my point is this: The survivor is not actually accountable in any way for the killer's actions. The survivor has no way of making the killer spare them or not. In fact, if a killer is visibly not hostile toward you, the generally accepted response of the ignored survivor is to take advantage of it. Say, if the killer has PWYF and you are the obsession, the killer will avoid hitting you, and you should try to adapt to this knowledge. Sometimes this leads to things happening that other survivors may not approve of. That is how the game goes- accidental sandbagging is prevalent and accepted, as Not_Queen has stated. This stuff is normal, and there are more examples. However, you can rarely determine whether it was "accidental" or not. This puts some honest players between a rock and a hard place- you would have to get really deep into the situation to decide if the spared survivor should be punished or not, while there are many forms of selfishness which are not an "offense", and some that are. This grey area becomes not only near-impossible to navigate for the player, but is also highly likely to occur to players who use some of the less popular perks and items, such as the skeleton key, or the perk Sole Survivor. I'm sure it's easy to come to the conclusion that forbidding "Working with the killer to gain an advantage" is a good way to address the behavior. But it actually steps on several in-game mechanics and leaves many holes which make arbitration virtually impossible, not to mention the fact that the steam store page directly lists "Survive together... Or not" under Features as #1.
A survivor cannot force a killer to spare them, or to kill others. Ergo, if any "cooperation" occurs, the responsible party is the one with the machete. Not only is this a more logical distribution of responsibility, it takes practically no effort to convict on. If the killer spared the sandbaggy survivor, then the KILLER "cooperated to gain an advantage." At this point, it's clear that the action which determines guilt is the burden of the killer. However, even still, this violates some in-game meachanics that directly encourage a killer to spare a survivor and it puts a big dent in the security of every single friendly killer in the fog. If you bring PWYF, but your obsession is a sandbagger, you have to kill them and throw away your perk or else risk appearing like you are cooperating to the other three. On top of that, no more giving hatch to the last person, or else you can be made to look suspicious. This is a bummer, but slightly more consistent with the game. I know from watching dev streams that this quickly becomes one of the muddiest areas of discussion to have come up, and there is a good reason this happens- externally moderating selfishness is not a viable strategy in DbD, period.
The only appropriate solution from a holistic perspective is really to remove the report category entirely, to accept survival-induced selfishness and malice as a core aspect of the game, (which it is, according to the trap-door mechanics, the lore, and the vision of the game originally put forth by the game's creators) and *gamify* this portion of the experience. Capitalize on the existing (and quite beautifully designed) survival-based motivators within the fog for these scenarios, instead of trying to arbitrate with moderators what should rightfully be decided by The Entity. Although the in-game systems that encourage survivor malice may be unpopular art, it's well-crafted and relevant art, and it deserves respect and has an irreversible place in the game. (WGLF, Sole Survivor, Pig traps, the Hatch equation, The black silk cord, the skeleton key, Left Behind, Bond, Diversion, item persistence, new year event, all encourage sandbagging- and rightfully so.)
there is ancient groundwork in DbD for selfish play to be tremendously well-implemented and expanded upon, but when this report category was introduced, the notion was derailed, most likely driven by flippant public opinions. *Of course* the average joe always wants the game to be more forgiving, but that is clearly not the person who should be deciding. The report category was obviously well-intentioned, but it directly steps on several of the game's most fragile, rare, untouched, and valuable traits- traits which someone early in the development process felt were vital to the horror experience, but go forgotten nowadays. For example, what was the original purpose of unused items like the black silk map, skeleton key, and especially the trap door? - to introduce a selfish element which is critical to horror situations designed to test your human resolve, a la "Saw". Be like Jigsaw again, BHVR. Give the subjects the complete option to forsake each other, or don't at all. Survivors are judged individually and not as a team for a very good reason. Selfishness should never be artificially discouraged, especially in a game like DbD which is so uniquely poised to be a paragon of this rarely-explored and well-fitting concept. This report category violates part of the foundational philosophy of the game, and thus creates mixed signals (to say the least). The influence to sandbag arises from the *suitability functions* of intentional in-game systems, and must itself be treated as an in-game phenomenon in order to maintain the integrity of the game. Your "game rules" encroach on The Entity's territory. These situations were meant to play out naturally, without a moderator's thumb on the scale.
As a compromise, you could easily solve some of the complications simply by changing the report category to read: "A killer who works with survivors." This way the scenario will virtually never occur, since the killer is the instrumental member of the relationship (as only they can kill). Most honest killers already play a ref-like role, making the moral choice to pursue hook-farmers instead of tunneling or camping. This would be a natural place to leverage the same concept and would be a far more tractable point of litigation- one which is already occurring for the most part. Have the killers punish sandbaggers. This will, at the very least, reduce the damage the report category does to the spirit of the game. Take it from someone who has explored the topic extensively.
Sorry for length, but this needed to be brought up for The Entity's sake. I'm just relaying the message. Praise.
tl;dr: The game was originally partially designed to pit survivors against each other (cited), therefore, the "working with" griefing category is nebulous, illogical, and damaging to the core philosophy of the game. Sandbagging should not be externally discouraged this way. Rather, selfishness should be accounted for in-game, respecting the existing mechanics which validate it and the ways in which it contributes to the spirit of the game.
Comments
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I'm sorry. If you think any game could benefit from allowing players to grief and troll other survivors that they can equip perks to see and chase down/stalk, you're very confused. A killer playing with a survivor to find and down everyone as that person blocks and gets in the way of other survivors should never be excused or allowed. It isn't a case of "selfishness," but of ruining the experience of other players often for kicks and giggles or because you don't like the person. The hatch wasn't made for selfishness, but for "hope" for the last remaining survivor and to give the last one a chance. Altruism Emblem is influenced by the team's performance. If you have your team eating itself, you'll never get far, too, and allowing sandbagging could allow for discrimination. "I don't like your name, so I'm gonna get in your way, lead the killer to you, etc."
Killers often don't mediate, too. I don't know how lucky you are, but most of the games I've had people farming, the killer took advantage of it and then killed the person. Someone's making their job easier and they may often not realize the person's being sandbagged or may not care ('cause a lot of people have the mentality that only their game experience matters). Regardless, not addressing those issues will affect the health of the game. You use the argument that you can therefore you should be allowed as if rules aren't in place in real life and you can't, for instance, kill someone. Which is against the law and will get you punishment if you're caught. It's the devs game and they chose the rules they did for the health of the game and the fun for all players.
tl;dr: ignoring griefing and trolling isn't a good idea.
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Fluffybunny, thank you for your response. However, you are just further illustrating my point that specifically this kind of "griefing" is basically impossible to enforce. I'm not saying that sandbagging will make everyone happy, or that a killer should ever work with a survivor, but there are a lot of aspects to the game which are designed to give survivors an air of cruel odds. The fact that I can equip perks and items to facilitate escaping out the hatch is exactly why selfishness to all degrees is purposefully ingrained in the game. The store page says "Survive together- or not." WGLF, Sole Survivor, Pig traps, the Hatch equation, The black silk cord, the skeleton key, Left Behind, Bond, Diversion, item persistence, all encourage sandbagging. In order to justify this report category, all of these features would have to be removed or dramatically reworked to avoid encouraging extreme selfishness.
I'm not advocating for griefing or trolling. I am saying sandbagging does not qualify as either of these. It is a viable in-game option and it is overtly encouraged by game mechanics both old and new. There is no empirical method for convicting a survivor on this superfluous charge without invalidating entire sections of the game. A killer is "just ruining someone's experience" when they facecamp, but it leads to a viable victory so therefore it is not bannable. Not one single thing about sandbagging is different. By ensuring the other survivors die, a selfish survivor can dramatically increase their odds of escape. This is dictated by the game mechanics as they exist, not as a fluke, but as a legitimate, intentional aspect of an asymmetrical survival horror game. If a survivor can camp the hatch while a friend bleeds out, use bond to throw a chase to someone else, and wait until the end for Sole Survivor to proc, there is nothing definable saying one can't take more drastic steps toward this end. There is no line. We are told to survive. You can get 0 altruism and still rank up. If "choosing specific perks for a strategy of leaving out the hatch" is somehow griefing, then the black silk cord and skeleton key should be deleted from the game, as well as Sole Survivor, WGLF, and Left Behind.
Unfortunately for people who hold your point of view, this is Dead by Daylight, not Friendship By Magiclight. Sandbagging in its own right is identically as reprehensible as facecamping. This does not apply to the other types of griefing you described, such as targeting specific players, but a premeditated sandbag strategy is fully supported and viable within the bounds of the game. Dead by Daylight was released with this intention, and it has been weathered away by confused community members like yourself who do not appreciate a true test of human willpower, but simply want the game to be another battle royale simulator. The opportunity to bargain with the lives of others is not only a core moral of Dead by Daylight, but one that every survivor already practices to some degree. You are making a harmful and forced distinction, and wrongly including something you simply don't like into a category with actions that are actually detrimental to the game.
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Thank god you both had TL;DR, I would not have been able to understand...
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You just sound like one of those people who takes a game way too serious and makes it unfun for other people that way. If we'd all look at how illogical certain things are in this game then I'm quite sure it's not even an actual horror survival game anymore.
This is not real life, it's a game. If you die you just go to the campfire, so helping out other teammates won't harm you in any way.
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@fluffybunny thanks for the response. I understand your sentiment, but some of your concerns are misplaced. As I said, I am not condoning the types of griefing you describe, but I am simply pointing out that sandbagging and survivor-on-survivor malice is not griefing, it's canon and suitable to the game's atmosphere, mechanics, and balance. Targeting people is not good. But that is called "Metagaming" and is a different subject. Metagaming is not okay at all. But actively using something like "Sole Survivor/ Object of Obsession / Diversion" to make sure you are the last one alive is not that. It's a valid strategy arising from a valid selection of perks. Regardless of who is responsible, survivor or killer, the fact is that the game consists of suitability functions, and the players are allowed to make optimal selections. Killers are "Ruining a player's game" when they facecamp. There was a big civil war over whether this should be bannable and it was found that it was not. Sandbagging is exactly as reprehensible as face camping, as I will point out again, your score is independent of all other survivors, you are not on a team. So yes, altruism is encouraged, but is explicitly and intentionally made optional. EXCEPT for some small scenarios, where the killer and survivor could be sorta made to look like they were teaming up (something impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt). This is a nonsense report category, as it is currently worded, in DbD. You could maybe argue that working with a survivor is griefing. Sandbagging alone is not griefing.
@JoannaVO As I said, not everyone likes everything in the game. Face camping, tunnelling, and occasional survivor selfishness are all acceptable play. These can "ruin someone's game" but they are not bannable. They are viable strategies. If you feel this way about sandbagging, why not about face camping? It's a sad day for the ones who invented the game if this is how their vision is going to be treated in 2019. Like a "Han shot first" type of dilemma, the original script was changed by people who were well-meaning but did not understand how they were damaging the original vision. I would like to think that the game is still horror survival, counter to popular opinion.
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Facecamping and sandbagging are different. Facecamping has proven itself to be useful in certain situations while sandbagging not only screws your teammates over, but also yourself. It's not like I don't respect the opinion given above, I just rather not have teammates like that as I'd rather be a good teammate who has tried helping wherever possible than escape. And if people would all work together as a team, then a amount of people might also stop desperately looking for a SWF team they can join. The game was made for a 4v1 situation, not for a situation where a survivor sandbags you and gives away positions.
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@Evil_Dwight Accidental sandbagging isn't against the rules. If someone does so out of panic or due to lack of awareness, they shouldn't get in trouble for that. I'm pretty sure they say it in the report screen and if not, they say it in the ones posted in the forums. The issue is a survivor equipping bond to screw over teammates is essentially cheating. Or a survivor following people around and giving away positions and getting in the way. While accidentally doing so is one thing, you can usually tell when people are just trying to kill off their team.
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@JoannaVO What kind of "Teammates" you would rather have is irrelevant. You don't get to have a report category for a viable strategy just for something you don't like. Just like face camping, sandbagging in all ways, with the intention of being the last one alive, is beneficial to the sandbagger as the trap door will appear. Perks like Sole Survivor reinforce this as an INTENTIONAL part of the game.
@fluffybunny Then how do you prove whether it was accidental or intentional? "You can usually tell..." that is not good enough. Using Bond to punt the killer is publicly stated on a dev stream as not bannable, but rather as a "Creative use of the perk." Not only that, but trying to kill off your team is accepted in the community so long as it is indirect- camping in a locker and waiting for the hatch to appear is intentional, selfish, ruins the game for the other survivor, and perfectly legal. It's not cheating and neither is any kind of (what I am going to call) "honest" sandbagging.
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@Evil_Dwight I'm pretty sure the people who check reports can tell. What do you mean "Using Bond to punt the killer is publicly stated on a dev stream as not bannable" and can you link to where they publicly state it's ok? In the rules they posted on this form it does say that griefing is against the rules (working with opposite team to gain an advantage or grief a teammate, targeting specific users in order to ruin their game experience).
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@Poweas LMAO I just saw what you posted. XD
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Here is a steam forum discussion on the topic, and here you can see many players praising the strategy.
Here are 3 clips of Not_Queen listing some things which are not reportable, among them selfish survivor actions like sandbagging at windows:
<iframe src="https://clips.twitch.tv/embed?autoplay=false&clip=MoistEsteemedClintmullinsHassanChop&tt_content=embed&tt_medium=clips_embed" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen="true"></iframe>
<iframe src="https://clips.twitch.tv/embed?autoplay=false&clip=PoorFastCookieSuperVinlin&tt_content=embed&tt_medium=clips_embed" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen="true"></iframe>
<iframe src="https://clips.twitch.tv/embed?autoplay=false&clip=RealBigSamosaAsianGlow&tt_content=embed&tt_medium=clips_embed" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen="true"></iframe>
She doesn't specifically mention the Bond thing here, I believe that may have been in a forum or comment somewhere, or said on stream by one of the programmers, I've seen it dug up in other threads before.
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Working with the killer is something you can report for, it has the option ingame if I'm not wrong. I can't understand why you'd take a game to such level where you would make it unfun for your teammates just for the 5,000 escape bloodpoints. I'm quite sure that working with your teammates optimally grants much more bloodpoints and is more ideal. But people can do whatever they want, as long as I dont have to play with teammates like this.
It's not just the type of teammates I don't want, but that practically nobody wants which makes it a relevant issue.
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@fluffybunny I'm not even joking, I was completely lost in that wall of text. If you wrote that 6 months ago I woulda been able to read it all but I'm so tired nowadays that TL;DR is my lifesaver XD.
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@JoannaVO #1: Stop calling them "Teammates." Nowhere in the game are they called that. They are "Fellow Survivors." Each person in a match is there to earn bloodpoints and win for themselves. Please realize: what makes DbD a horror game is the fact that it is comprised of unpleasant elements. You have gotten used to dealing with all the other ones as part of the game. Betrayal is a serious, applicable topic and trying to bargain for your life is one of the stages of grief in real life. If you want a game to be any kind of art, it needs to wholesomely reflect the subject matter it pertains to. This is akin to censoring modern art. Yes, getting betrayed hurts. Yes, it leads to you losing and your betrayer winning. And yes, this is something you should be expected to look out for- and retaliate to, if you feel so inclined. But not with out-of-game baby rage tattle-taling. The Entity's message has been censored and muddied. Please refer to the twitch clips above to get a better sense of how over-reporting is an issue- all these little complaints she mentions are unpleasant, yes, but she is saying the players need to "GIT GUD" about these things rather than defaulting to complaining at the devs.
Hacking, exploiting, holding the game hostage, and meta-targeting players (based on steam name or anything outside the current match) are all griefing, and these categories cover every scenario where the survivor's actions become invalid. "Working with the killer" does not represent an independently viable report category, as it will be applicable only if the sandbagger was also doing one of the other forms of griefing, and will not be otherwise. Thus, "Working with the killer" is a redundant and nebulous category that only sows confusion and inconsistency.
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@Poweas I can understand that. I have those days, too.
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Seriously. This dude is here talking about how changing a report option can remove confusion and benefit a game while providing a whole backstory with examples and everything while making an issue out of something the devs don't even consider an issue even if salty pucks in the community consider them issues because they can't handle a dynamic gameplay.
Its almost as if he has never read this: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/19450/game-rules-and-report-system
DISCARDED REPORTS REASONS
THE FOLLOWING ARE NOT CONSIDERED BANNABLE OFFENSES - PLEASE DO NOT REPORT
* Camping
* Slugging
* Tunneling
* Streamsniping
* Teabagging
* Bodyblocking
* Looping
* Tapping generators with ruin
* Dribbling (Dropping a survivor repeatedly to avoid decisive strike)
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Or, alternatively, they may be trying to gauge the reactions in the current state of the community about a feature that often goes unexplored, under the guise of controversy, while also informing and offering a refreshing view on gameplay styles in ways which reach the average player who may not have come to discover them on their own. Likely nobody has ever been banned for the category in question.
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lol This reminds me of the story my grandma told me when she was a life about a man who stole his ring back from a theif and ended up in jail because he couldn't prove it was his ring. Theft is Theft.
We have enough problems with disconnects due to Killers playing toxic. Then you have even more because of this new garbo match making system. Doing this will just cause more, and odds are... get you put on that reddit Hit List i keep reading, which is the same list to have a certain streamer on it, trying to deny him getting 50 escapes in a row. I'm not linking it, google it.
Everything except Looping, Gen Tapping, and Dribbling IS in fact bannable if you can prove malicious intent over several games. This is considered Griefing. Is it heavily punished? Lol no. Still, the fact remains.
If you intentionally ruin people's game when that is not your "role" outlined by the game's guidelines and rules... Oh you're discovering a new "play style"? You're asking for issues. There are other ways to get attention. Stop doing it by intentionally ticking someone off.
Working with the killer can get you banned. End of story. It's not a play style, you're being an ass.
- Working with the opposite team to gain an advantage or grief teammates
I record every game I play, and I will gladly report this to the developer along with the Steam user ID. Go ahead and do as you want. You should change your name to Ochido2.
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Nothing here goes unexplored, every topic is thrown about often these forums are basically inhabited by parrots. But at least someone can indulge this long post without losing their mind and feeling like they wasted precious time.
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Ingame report system shows that working with the killer is considered as griefing and thus reportable if shown the right evidence. Same goes for bodyblocking.
Clearly the game is not meant to be played completely selfish as you are required to be altruistic if you want to pip, plus if that would really be the case then (certain) survivor perks should receive a buff.
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I just experienced deliberate sandbagging from two guys that include the fact that they are sandbaggers and griefers in their descriptions on Steam. One has been a member of steam for 8 years the other 4. The two of them have over 9 pages of complaints/reps as griefers/sandbaggers. I can assume I am probably the 100th person to report them. It looks like they have made new accounts time and time again in DBD. Obviously, steam doesn't give a da*mn. Thankfully DBD does. Your point about survivors not being able to control the actions of a killer is well noted, accidental sandbagging is also well noted. But when you have a 2 man team, blowing up gens, using bond to lead the killer to hurt teammates, blocking exit routes, throwing down pallets to alert the killer, jumping in and out of lockers, healing and then messing up skill checks once the killer terror radius comes close, (all of which happened to me and my friend while playing with two sandbaggers e.g. asshats) then those people need to be removed from the community. Our reporting system is already flawed at best, ineffective at worse. Without video it is an uphill battle to get anyone banned, unless of course they have several complaints. If you remove the system by which to report these individuals you will only encourage more griefers/sandbaggers. Increase those odds to encountering a griefer to say 1 every 4 games, then you will have people leaving the game. I know I would. Most of us want to play the game as it was intended.
There is already a system in place for selfish gameplay. It's called leave your teammate on the hook. This strategy is perfectly legit and, while not endearing you to other survivors (payback is a b*tch) it will not get you reported or banned. The type of gameplay I described above should not be tolerated. Play immersed and selfish all you want but the game was intended for the killer to take out survivors, not survivors to take each other out. Bond was not created for sandbagging but to get on gens with teammates, to heal and lead others to safety. Dwight was created as the teamwork mascot, all his perks say so. If you see them any differently, that's your mindset. Play selfish if you want, if that's how you get your kicks, but there are consequences for making the game miserable for everyone. There should always be consequences.
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@JoannaVO No #########, that is the report category referenced in my title. I'm saying those report categories are contradictory with in-game design that encourages you to do exactly that. It's not griefing, it's surviving. These report categories would be better off gone. The other categories are plenty sufficient to prevent toxicity, this is the only one that is based entirely on the offender's choice of playstyle.
Edit- Not to mention: You are wrong that you need altruism to pip. I never get it and I get to rank 1 every month.
@feechima Lucky you for running into some skilled servants of The Entity, you should consider yourself blessed. Try anticipating the situation next time, or apply your own consequences to your aggressors. (as you say, payback is a b*tch.) Unfortunately for you, the line between the types of sandbagging you say are acceptable and the actions taken by these two individuals are not distinguishable. Playing immersed and selfish leads to the type of gameplay you experienced, and that is ok. The fact that you think there is a special imaginary threshold that makes it ok to report these survivors for doing some things but not others, is exactly my point. Try reading some lore, watch some early dev streams, and put yourself in the mindset of The Entity. Making things miserable is priority #1. The fun comes in subverting it, and like everything else in the game that makes you upset, you will overcome and keep playing, I know you will. Maybe you will even dabble in the dark arts some yourself, for the sake of survival. As you should. But if your goal is to "Get the people who use this playstyle banned", you are the one to cast the first stone. You are now the one targeting people out-of-game for something they did within the bounds of the game. May I offer the age-old advice of Mcote: "Git Gud"
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Their intention was not to survive at all but to make surviving difficult for other players. Immersion is fine. Whatever. Griefing is not okay. There is a HUGE difference. And it is very much distinguishable. When you go out of your way to find someone, to rat them out, to get them killed, to not do objectives other than get your teammates killed then yes you should be banned. That is not the intention of the game. Just like using an exploit is not the intention of the game. I don't have to put myself in the mindset of an conceptual being to know right from wrong. If they devs who also created the entity intended griefing and sandbagging then why it is reportable?
The devs have drawn clear lines on what is and what isn't acceptable. And no, I will never dabble on the dark side. I find no enjoyment trying to get other people killed. And that git gud crap is as juvenile as people who enter a game with no other purpose but to get their shits and giggles from ruining someone else's gaming experience. If you want to kill survivors and escape, play Killer.
It is ironic that all the sandbaggers/griefers I encounter are always Dwight's with bond. I think you are a griefer who just hasn't gotten banned yet @Evil_Dwight. Good luck with that.
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