A possible nerf to WoO

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Xernoton
Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
edited March 29 in General Discussions

I know that this is technically a suggestion but I would like to focus on discussing it and see how my idea could be improved, so I'd very appreciate, if the mods don't move it to Feedback And Suggestions. Thank you.

WoO has been discussed quite a bit. There are people that really like it, there are people that hate it and there are some that are indifferent about it. Personally, I like the idea of the perk but not the execution.

So I suggest to change the perk so that it stays active as long as you are not in chase but goes on a cooldown after X amount of time (I think 5 seconds should suffice) once the chase starts and stays inactive for Y amount of time (15 seconds maybe), then activates again and repeats.

This would allow the perk to cover for solo queue issues, help survivors learn maps and get rid of it as a crutch because in order for it to really make a difference, you actually need to put in some work. It would also further incentivise learning maps because you would memorise 1 or 2 nearby loops.

I don't care so much about whether or not you think WoO absolutely needs a nerf (that has been discussed more than enough) but more about what you think of this suggestion. What potential issues could it have and what adjustments should be made? I also wouldn't be against it getting a neat second effect, should it end up being too weak.

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Comments

  • supersonic853
    supersonic853 Member Posts: 5,372
    edited March 29
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    unless you count pure pickrate i guess. My only complaint with it is the amount of autopiloting you can see from it. Like its incredibly obvious when a survivor runs from pallet to pallet not even trying to loop.

    Autopiloting though is a map issue not a perk issue.

  • Hensen2100
    Hensen2100 Member Posts: 339
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    I would say reduce the radius or add the CD back. I think it's funny that on maps like the game I can already know my exact route I am going to take on an entirely different floor before I have even seen that section of the map.

    BHVR added new tiles because "the entity demands a more chaotic experience" but then this autopilot perk exists. Even as a killer you can usually tell who is using it as they perfectly path pallet to pallet to window to pallet to window etc etc

  • solarjin1
    solarjin1 Member Posts: 1,778
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    I'm ok with the idea i guess. Don't think the nerf would even do much to the perk honestly. "It would also further incentivise learning maps" We need a trapper bot so survivors can actually run around different maps learning the pallet spawns. I had to use windows for the first 1500 hours myself because there just to many maps.

  • ChaosWam
    ChaosWam Member Posts: 1,259
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    I'm also on the boat that it doesn't need a nerf, but I would have another way it functions.

    Basically, the perk would have a 20 second timer. The time recharges when not in chase. When in a chase, see the auras of pallets/windows for the duration of the perk.

    I say 20 seconds as a starting point, could be tuned for whatever balance required, but it would make the perk not as long lasting and still be useful for new players who may not know if there's a safe spot nearby while veterans can't just use it to autopilot the entire time.

    That said, and again, I don't think the current needs to be nerfed.

  • Quizzy
    Quizzy Member Posts: 856
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    Let them autopilot and throw them all. They lose resources if they rely on it too much. And some killers don't even care about pallets anyways

  • Bafugaboo
    Bafugaboo Member Posts: 372
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    I can see how beginners would benefit more from the aura vanishes on chase than maintaining the aura. It would help with getting a player to look at their surroundings and have a plan ready for execution. It would show the spots to run to and then exercise their brain to remember that path. Then when the time comes that they want to run a different perk they could transition easier away from using it.

    That being said I do not feel like it needs changing. If it did I can see a positive is all.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
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    I'd like that too. Or even a mode without a killer / survivor so that you can just focus on the map.

    Thanks for your feedback.

    This is my main issue with it.

    It's similar to Nurse with Plaid Flannel. Nurse doesn't really become stronger with it because a good Nurse can get the exact same results without it but it still doesn't feel nice, knowing that the Nurse player doesn't have to put in any effort in dominating the match.

    It's also why my main goal is not to gut WoO but to make it less of an autopilot for survivors.

    The goal is not to gut the perk but to get rid of the autopilot that WoO provides.

    If you have any suggestions to keep the perk strong (for example a secondary effect), or you find an issue with my suggestion, I would appreciate the feedback.

    That could work too, although I fear it doesn't quite help with the issue that you won't know what pallets are still available as you make your way across the map during the chase.

    I agree with that second part. This is my main issue with it. The perk really doesn't need to be much weaker but I'd like to shift the strength towards something more interactive. Pre dropping and Shift + W isn't really fun and WoO makes it even worse because it doesn't take any effort whatsoever. At least without it, it takes some map knowledge.

  • Shaddoll_Serpent
    Shaddoll_Serpent Member Posts: 132
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    I wouldn't mind this since it'd make the perk less auto pilot. WoO doesn't really need a nerf though in my eyes.

  • Hexling
    Hexling Member Posts: 657
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    ahhh yes lets make the game even harder for new people.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
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    The difference is that survivors move. Pallets and windows don't. Killers can't play on autopilot simply because there are aura perks. Aura perks also aren't active permanently. They reveal survivors for a short duration.

    New players don't have the perk anyway because it's a teachable of Kate Denson, who is a dlc character, so let's not pretend. They won't even know the perk exists when they start playing.

    Also, the perk would still do that. It's not my intention to gut WoO but to change it so that it doesn't become a literal autopilot, which then becomes a necessity for these players because they never learned to play without it.

    A secondary effect could be added to compensate for it, in case it becomes too weak. I'd take any suggestions you might have.

  • jmwjmw27
    jmwjmw27 Member Posts: 264
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    There's no need to remove the "autopilot" WOO provides. Most loops are playable with most killers and there are less and less safe pallets save for maps like Gideon. Map reworks would fix the issue you have while also making the game more balanced without having to nerf a beginner perk.

  • WolfyWood
    WolfyWood Member Posts: 306
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    I will take this minor nerf over anything BHVR would come up with to gut it.

    +1

  • Zraith
    Zraith Member Posts: 143
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    pickrate should not be a reason to nerf perks. Buffing them based on pickrate, sure, make unused ones useful.

    if you have problem with WoO bring blindess into the match.

  • MrPenguin
    MrPenguin Member Posts: 2,357
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    The perk isn't the problem so this won't fix the issues. The issues are the maps themselves being generally too strong (yes there are exceptions).

  • LeFennecFox
    LeFennecFox Member Posts: 1,209
    edited March 30
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    Yea being able to instantly know you got a specific pseudo infinite setup without wasting time looking yourself. The perk just exposes map rng issues before you even get in a chase.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,936
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    The hate stems from the robot-like playstyle it often promotes; as the killer you can pretty much tell when someone is just running for the next big yellow blob on their screen, predropping, beelining to the next yellow blob ... there is a reason why some people refer to it as "WoO yellow brainrott".

    And there is really not much you can do, unless your power let's you hit the survivor at range and/or makes them switch loops: you have to rub after them like an automaton and eat pallet after pallet, running to the next loop, rinse, repeat.

    Yeah, I know that many of the better survivors favor this perk for the increased map awareness, knowing where chases are taking place, which resources are being used, where the dead zones are, and if this were the perks uses probably no one would complain, but it's this utterly uninteractive "beeline, predrop, beeline" playstyle that's really unfun and has basically no counter.

    Yeah, in theory it let's you work through all the resources on the map, but it will also bore you to death while doing it, and some maps have enough pallets that this playstyle can literally last you 5 gens.

    I had the idea to make WoO basekit, but only show pallets 30 to 40m away, thus giving everyone some basekit map awareness and showing the dead zones, but not being of perfect accuracy in a chase. But this could be enough to encourage newbies to play something else and try other perks. It would strengthen experienced players, but they weren't "abusing" the perk like mentioned here in the first place.

    With it being basekit the "perk equipped" version could again show you all the pallets while not in chase, but hide the nearby pallets after a certain amount of chase time or 2/3/4 pallets have been destroyed by the killer, resetting after you get hit.

    Again, WoO is not a huge problem, but it's basically "turn your brain off and play as uninteractive as possible"-the-perk, and with it being the most played survivor perk by a mile, every killer is bound to encounter this playstyle regularly, THATS why you see all this talk and complaints about it. And that's why I would like to see it nerfed in this regard, BUT were also totally fine with giving its utilitarian parts to all survivorsas basekit. Let that sink in :)

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,677
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    My only issue with it is that it’s called “Windows of Opportunity” despite it being permanent and thus not a “window” of opportunity.

    Change the name to “Opportunity” and it will be perfect.

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,394
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    “It's similar to Nurse with Plaid Flannel. Nurse doesn't really become stronger with it because a good Nurse can get the exact same results without it but it still doesn't feel nice, knowing that the Nurse player doesn't have to put in any effort in dominating the match.”


    Yes, Plaid Flannel and WoO are similar, similar in the fact that they take either a perk / add-on that could be replaced with something stronger. Would you rather that perk slot be Dead Hard or that add-on be Heavy Panting? They’re sacrificing actual strength for ease of use and quality of life in both cases.

    Lightborn is the same exact way. People run it so they don’t have to think as much and to counteract the uncounterable flash bang background player saves. Windows is the exact same, RNG is unpredictable and your survivor teammates throwing pallets is unpredictable unless you’re on comms. Again, ease of use and quality of life.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
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    Lightborn is not the same as WoO. Survivors can completely ignore Lightborn but WoO is something the killer will notice. One barely affects normal gameplay, the other completely changes the game completely.

    I'd rather be stomped by some god like survivors every once in a while than winning all my games but being bored to death while I do it. What if from today onwards the game was no longer a PvP but a PvE. Would you still play, knowing that every match is pretty much the same because your opponents always do the exact same things? This is what WoO does to survivors. It turns them into bots that no longer play against the killer but play by a manual.

    For all I care the perk could be buffed to become stronger as long as that aspect is removed.

  • IamFran
    IamFran Member Posts: 1,603
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    Considering how unpopular is the opinion of nerfing that aberration you are brave for writing this post, but I'm with you. I stopped using it because I know it will be nerfed eventually and it should be a pain get used to be carried by a perk and suddenly becoming useless.

  • ExcelSword
    ExcelSword Member Posts: 451
    edited March 30
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    People in this thread are really underestimating how strong it is never worrying about entering a deadzone.

    Seriously, I run this perk almost exclusively because it is so good. So many mindgames that killers try to attempt but if I notice they are trying to mindgame I just abandon the loop and head to the next tile that I can see. Usually abandoning a tile is risky but windows lets you plan it perfectly and it can really drag a chase out until the killer finally stops mind-gaming and brute forces a loop.

    Honestly, I dislike this perk a bit because I don't really like perks that reward holding W, but avoiding deadzones that survivors make in Solo Q makes me still keep running it.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,936
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    It's the same with Spies in Shadows, you can tell people how great and fun it is and how often your little crow spies will rat survivors out and give you literally eyes in the back of your head, theory crafting will always prevail and win the discussion. I couldn't care less, the less killers are running it, the less survivors have any inkling about what's going on.

    And now that UW is moving from scream perk to aura reading, the 5 Calm Spirit users might rotate their perk out in favor of something more useful.

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,394
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    I feel this reply ignored the point of my post. Again, ease of use and quality of life is why these perks are ran, I’m not directly comparing what they do, if I was I’d talk about Zanshin Tactics.

    You feeling like you’re getting cheated by someone running windows and just holding W is how every survivor feels when their weak link teammate gets downed, Pain Res’d, Popped / Grim Embraced and tunneled out of the game. Both are crutches that can turn bad players into better players. If we’re going to nerf perks because they’re crutches then it has to be done to both sides. Both are just playing the game on easy mode.

    And before the argument of having to down and hook people for regress perks comes out, if you’re playing against 4 people, all of which you can’t catch and down, you’re losing that game regardless. Just like how running windows doesn’t automatically make you good in chase, win mindgames and 50/50s.

  • CLHL
    CLHL Member Posts: 124
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    The day this happens is going to be extremely funny. And it will end up coming, because that nerf was already leaked in a recent patch notes and quickly removed from it. I doubt they redacted a whole paragraph for a perk change by mistake.

    People have gotten so used to this perk that they have completely lost their gamesense. It's comical to read all the complaints to killers aura perks when almost everyone is running an x-ray vision that gives them the location of every pallet and vault in the map. Allowing them to make a braindead predrop circuit that in many cases ends up sentencing their team with multiple deadzones.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
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    Iirc the description was identical to the one before the buff, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

  • Pit_Bull_Love
    Pit_Bull_Love Member Posts: 18
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  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 2,353
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    To be fair survivors can run in a straight line (or from pallet to pallet) and pre-drop without Windows of Opportunity. Decent map awareness (not even good; just decent) and a functional pair of eyes creates the same scenario. Nerfing this perk won’t mean average survivors just suddenly stand still and get hit or run into walls. 🤷🏽‍♀️

    And Any Means Necessary does something similar to this perk.

  • TheLastTreedad
    TheLastTreedad Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 7
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    So would you say the same for Zanshin Tactics? WoO is fine as it is

  • The_Yosh
    The_Yosh Member Posts: 145
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    No, WoO doesn't need a nerf. If you feel WoO is causing you that many problems, just bring a blindness perk or addon. There are PLENTY of them.

    I have 3k hours with 50/50 killer/survivor. If I care about WoO, I bring blindness. If I they have WoO and I don't have blindness, I just eat through resources. You also don't need to chase the WoO survivor that is running from yellow to yellow.

    In short, don't play like a bot. Have a strategy instead of relying on BHVR to nerf every perk into oblivion.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
    edited March 31
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    That's true but at least it takes a bit of effort. The issue doesn't go away but it becomes less prevelant without WoO working in this way.

    A good Nurse can hit you pretty much anywhere but if she sees your aura, then that's pretty much a guarantee and it takes away a lot of the possibility for her to mess up and for you to mind game.

    Average survivors will be more inclined to actually play around loops because they aren't constantly reminded of how much more they have to work with and if they play mindless, they might end up running into a dead zone.

    I'm honestly fine with AMN. That at least doesn't allow you to play by a manual and killers can also break pallets to negate the aura vision.

    Not in general. Because pallets and windows are not resources for the killer to use.

    The only exception is Doctor. And on him I sometimes use Zanshin Tactics for the same reason survivors use WoO. I can completely turn off my brain. If Zanshin Tactics has to be changed as a compensation, then fine. Go ahead.

  • Spirit_IsTheBest
    Spirit_IsTheBest Member Posts: 691
    edited March 31
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    Heck no. The perk does nothing to progress the game further, it simply gives information. Why would you want to nerf that? Good killers focus on pressuring generators rather than chasing anyways.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
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    Can we stop with that "just pressure gens" nonsense? You can't pressure gens, only survivors. That is a big difference because survivors can adjust.

    Killers can too but not really to WoO. You can't make it go away mid match.

    If the perk isn't any good, then how comes it's used so often and what would be the problem with this nerf? All the positive aspects would remain. Only the autopilot function would disappear.

  • MissiCiv
    MissiCiv Member Posts: 41
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    Needs to be nerfed what an Auto-Pilot perk

  • Xyphus
    Xyphus Member Posts: 84
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    Only reason I see to nerf this would be because Killers get accused for playing without skill - meanwhile a Survivor just follows yellow auras and doesn't learn to loop..

    Still not a very problematic perk

  • GingerBeard
    GingerBeard Member Posts: 270
    edited March 31
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    I don't think that nerf would have much of an effect (well depending on the numbers) so i'm indifferent to it. I think a simpler nerf would be cutting the distance to 16-24m.

    For something more substantial and more akin to your idea is keeping the current distance, but disable the perk while in chase. However, any time you vault during chase the perk activates again for a brief window (3 seconds or so).

    As for secondary effects I can think of two.

    1. Extends duration all aura reading by 2 seconds, or all non-killer specific aura reading if need be.
    2. Aura of windows and pallets that are blocked by the entity are shown to you in another color. This one is more niche but still has usefulness.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 1,793
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    I think the perk is fine as is, but if we would make changes to promote spreading pressure, it could have 3 levels of effectiveness.

    1. You have more hooks than any Survivor: Current version.
    2. You are tied for hooks with least hooked Survivor: Lingers 5-15s after vault and/or chase then goes on 30s cooldown.
    3. You have less hooks than all Survivors: Ends on vault and/or chase then goes on 30s cooldown.

    They could name this mechanic and apply it across multiple perks, so that way tunneled Survivors get full perks, but untunneled Survivors get lesser versions. The opposite could also apply for healing perks, which would heal tunneled Survivors at accelerated rates, and unhooked Survivors at lessened rates.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,936
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    A Zanshin nerf would be a cute foil to WoO, like you know, one of this perks is the most played survivors perk and the other the least played killer perk. And they literally do the same. Shows of how different value the same information can be, but you could utterly nuke and murder and gut Zanshin, that wouldn't impact killer gameplay one bit, so claiming that this could be thrown in to sweaten the deal of a WoO nerf would be a bit uningenious

  • Zephinism
    Zephinism Member Posts: 535
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    Doesn't need a nerf.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,327
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    I don't think it would sweeten the pot but I'd be more than happy to pay that very low price for WoO to be changed. Wouldn't you?

  • sinkra
    sinkra Member Posts: 287
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    If windows gets nerfed it's going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back for survivors and many are going to leave the game en masse. There's only so much they can take.