We have temporarily disabled Firecrackers and the Flashbang Perk due to a bug which could cause the Killer's game to crash. These will be re-enabled in an upcoming patch when the issue is resolved.

Why Otz says buffing DS is bad

2»

Comments

  • BlackRose89
    BlackRose89 Member Posts: 335

    I understand what you saying and respect it but I still have issues with DS being behind a paywall, esp when you have ALOT of useless free perks on both sides. Otz made a good point that you could have at least moved the effect of DS on a perk like This is Happening, a perk that have little to no use for new or old players right now.

    I know you all don't see DS as a fix to tunneling but a lot of your player base does. They will use DS as way to fix tunneling and will use it every single match no matter what. Putting it back to 5s only brings back those days where all we see from survivors will be the same 4 perks every single match. We all know that Fog whispers and others have talked to you and shared ideas about how to make the anti-tunneling experience better for everyone not just for some players. I don't understand why the devs didn't take this chance to address this. Once again all you doing is telling players esp newer players that if you don't want to be tunnel you have to spend $5 to get one single perk to help combat it. As I said no matter what you say, ppl in your player base will always see DS as a band-aid/short-term fix to tunneling.

    I end this with that I am happy you shared the reasoning for not disabling killer powers. That does make some sense and I respect that that much. I just think there were better opinions the devs could have done to help against tunneling(which once again is the reason ppl run DS in the first place) for everyone instead of just putting DS(a $5 perk) back to 5s.

  • Brimp
    Brimp Member Posts: 2,927

    Literally the best thing this perk can get in terms of buffs that wouldnt affect lower tiers as much would be a power lockout.

  • Marioneo
    Marioneo Member Posts: 808
    edited April 2

    People want a Solution to tunneling if you can disable some powers around hooks such as teleports but not instant downs or even hag tp traps your already inconsistent and two steps in a confusing mess and Dbd twitter and reddit is pointing out all the flaws in this bad take statement.

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,839

    Yes but this wouldn’t be as punishing as completely disabling your power and would only affect a few killers rather than everyone.

    Her recharge time is only 3 seconds per token, you would be able to use your power again after 3 seconds and both blinks after 6. Nurse would still have an easier time catching up then the other killers but the distance gained would be much closer to the other killers than it is now.
    But that’s assuming you don’t recover until after the stun though. If you recover during it then there is pretty much no penalty because you’ll be 1 second off having all tokens after the stun.

  • RpTheHotrod
    RpTheHotrod Member Posts: 1,863
  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,789

    I would routinely go out of my way for those stacks, as did many killers back then. By default tunneling was less in most matches. And wayyyyyyy less common early in trials, which is the flavor of tunnels most complained about by far.

  • MaTtRoSiTy
    MaTtRoSiTy Member Posts: 1,868

    I mean, as already said it wont solve tunnelling but it will at least be start towards making tunnelling less appealing and to punish it far more than current DS does.

    Hopefully BHVR continue to look at tunnelling and mechanics to make it nonviable to discourage those currently getting easy wins from tunnelling

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,839

    Endurance hits should not be a part of this since survivors could abuse it by body blocking.

    This also has the downside that after triggering DS, your best option now is to continue tunnelling. Since you can no longer teleport with killer like Dredge or Freddy and you can no longer stop all those people triggering your traps as Hag, you can't go looking for someone else as easily and your best bet is to just keep tunnelling. I think that kind of defeats the purpose a bit.

    Also 110 killers like Slinger and Hag are hurt by this way worse than anyone else (except Nurse).

    The only killer who's power should be lost is Nurse, everyone else doesn't need this. DS is fine after that and then make some other base kit form of anti-tunnelling.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,251

    I already pre-empted bodyblocks by removing collision (during anti-tunnel effects being active). So that is already (mostly) solved. (found in parenthetical at end of first paragraph)

    Understandable with sunk-cost fallacy and commit on chase. Arguably DS should give speed or stealth post stab, that way you can Background Player level sprint away, or Shadow Step+Iron Will hide in a corner safely. I think it is better to take a DS and plan on using that to your advantage later, or simply not tunnel at all to bypass those perks, but not everyone thinks ahead as Killer. I autopilot as Bubba to be fair and chase the first I see.

    110 Killers (and 115) still have to make the active choice to tunnel and risk the consequences. Covered under the 'self-victimization' portion (found in 2nd paragraph). Also 110 isn't as debilitating in terms of macro as people would have you believe. Over 25s (or tunneling at 5 gens under the proposal), 4.6 gets you 115m, and 4.4 gets you 110m. Over 5s (or tunneling at 1 gen under the proposal), 4.6 gets you 23m and 4.4 gets you 22m. That basically means 1m per gen remaining of lost distance from 110 to 115.

    I do think at the minimum every Killer that can move/attack faster than 8m/s should be impacted (Blight/Oni/Wesker/Demo/Billy/Huntress/Slinger/etc.), but keeping it universal as 'Killer Incapacitation' fits better imo. It can be the Entity removing the powers it gave to the Killers, being more thematically appropriate, and universally applied keeps it fair across the board.

    The only aspect that could be unfair is abusing the game's poor autoaim with the bodyblock point, and trying to run in another Survivor's model to disable the Killer's power. I don't know how autoaim could be fixed, or if it can be, so this is the largest flaw I see. At the same time, if I am running 2 Survivors for the OTR duration, I am getting 33% effective gen slowdown as the Survivor could have been pumping gens instead. I'll take a free 10% boosted Pentimento any day.

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,839

    No collision can still be abused as you already pointed out. Not to mention that often you try to go for the unhooker after the get the rescue but because of auto aim it locks onto the unhooked and you hit them by mistake. You don't even need to run with the survivor, you could be inside the killers hit box and auto aim will hit them and the killer would have no way of knowing you were there. It would be way too abusable and way too punishing for something that could happen by mistake.

    You could go the route of making no collision also mean you can't get hit. This should only affect the base kit endurance and not OtR because 80 seconds of intangibility could also be massively abusable (trigger every single Hag trap, solve Pinhead's box and he can't stop it, follow Ghost Face around and completely nullify his power). No collision and no damage for 15 seconds though wouldn't be much of an issue because you can't really do anything in that time but 80 seconds is too much.

    Running 2 survivors for 80 seconds is also very bad for you. Yes only 2 survivors are on gens, but they are making progress and you aren't. That's almost 2 gens worth and you've made no progress at all. On paper it is the same amount of slow down as Pentimento, but Pentimento doesn't stop you from progressing your objective.

  • Alen_Starkly
    Alen_Starkly Member Posts: 1,167
    edited April 2

    I think that just disabling the power buttons (M2 and CTRL by default) would be okay. Chain hunt is not the killer tunneling, it's just a natural thing happening. Already set traps are also not a problem, in my opinion. Just disabling the key bounds to the power would be good. I hope it's feasible. :)

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,251

    I personally think if the Survivor is within 2-5m of another Survivor it would be best to remove attack collision as well, but that might not be an option (programmatically). I seriously don't think the Killer will have no clue that the Survivor is trailing them chasing the rescuer, especially since the Killer is faster by default, let alone Bloodlust as well.

    I only used the OTR 80s as an exaggeration, because it should take no longer than 20-30s to get a hit, and another 5-25s powerless to get the down (either tunneled or on the rescuer). It is fine as long as matchmaking isn't sending 800MMR baby Killers against 2000MMR clock SWFs, but even then that would be a matchmaking problem, not a problem with this proposal.

  • WaveyTrey
    WaveyTrey Member Posts: 646

    DS should work like Skull Merchant’s Game Afoot.

    When the survivor gets chased for the most amount of time they become the new obsession at the start of a chase. DS activates.

    As long as you are the obsession you gain access to DS; However, successfully landing DS puts it on cooldown for 60 seconds.

    The killer gets stunned for 3/4/5 seconds.

    DS deactivates if the obsession is changed by any means.

  • Krazzik
    Krazzik Member Posts: 2,475

    The issue with this is that it would punish those who don't have DS even more. Because the killer would 100% know you don't have DS so will always just pick up and hook again in all cases

  • Paternalpark
    Paternalpark Member Posts: 663

    No counter to high tier killers?

    Sounds like alot more blights and nurses on their way.

  • RomeroJane
    RomeroJane Member Posts: 41

    It sounds legit asking at this point: Is "tunneling" something the team aims at solving or something that is considered as part of the intended game design? Because even if DS doesn't "solve tunneling" it's gonna be the strongest answer to it (in my opinion: it already is), so it's gonna be played a lot, even more than now. Of course for "solving tunneling" it implies something that makes viable for killers to win consistently at higher levels without needing to go for these strategies.

  • Pizzaman
    Pizzaman Member Posts: 500

    It seems that everyone is trying to duct tape the issue (DS, longer DS Stun, DS Basekit). The problem is not camping or tunneling killers, nor is it DS.

    The problem is the hook.

    Perhaps Deathgarden did something very right by removing the "hook" (bloodpost).

  • Trollinmon
    Trollinmon Member Posts: 690
    edited April 2

    Would think making the killers' power go on cool down and doesn't start until they recover from the stun to be more effective at dealing with the stronger killers being impacted less compared to the weaker ones. Would fix the killers like Nurse, Blight, and Spirit getting hit much less than a Trapper. Don't really get how something like that with making DS a 4 second stun isn't overall more consistent vs all killers compared to just making it 5 seconds.

  • Emeal
    Emeal Member Posts: 4,971

    Dear bHVR it may not be as unsustainable as you think, Sure for one perk it might be.
    But you can also use the power disable for many more things, like you used it in the Special Rifts in the Halloween event.
    Those rifts will return surely in some form again? It may come in handy and to that it does not really matter that other weaker Killers could maybe gain some advantage vs. one perk:

    • Pre-Placed Skull merchant Drones.
    • Pre-Placed Trapper Traps
    • Pre-Placed Freddy Pools
    • Pre-Placed Knight Guard.
    • Hag with Scarred Hand or Waterlogged Shoe.
    • Pre-thrown Clown Gas Bottle.
    • Nemesis Zombies.
    • Pinhead's Chain Hunt.
    • Pig's Pigs Reverse Bear Trap Countdown.

    None of these are as big an issue as Blight or Nurse. In fact I think most players would be glad that DS would work better again the worst offenders, instead of making it worse for everybody while mildly affecting those Killers that it really matters for.

    I hope bHVR takes this into reconsideration.

    My suggestion is 5 sec stun + 15 seconds power buttons disable upon activating DS.

  • AquaticCitizen
    AquaticCitizen Member Posts: 38

    Hi Peanits, I think I agree with you for the most part here, I suppose I just have one question for you.

    Have you seen the discussion with Nurse and Blight losing all their tokens specifically upon a stun? Not just a DS stun specifically, but any stun. I think that would solve some of the gripes people have about not only those killers being OP, but the fact that DS feels useless against them because those killers can just catch back up immediately, even with the buffed stun time. They are the best killers too at tunneling, without a doubt.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,695
    edited April 2

    That's fine. BHVR made it clear that it's perfectly fine for survivors to run perks that hurt the rest of the the team, like when survivors excessively hide with Distortion, or when survivors equip Sole Survivor + Wake Up, and just wait for the rest of their team to die.

    Survivors that are honestly using DS for anti-tunnel would get more value out of DS, if the killer knew they had an active DS. That is more important than giving every survivor DS value, even if they aren't running that perk.

  • ArcT
    ArcT Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 92

    ######### seriously. This is not novel code. The Blight Serum add-on already disables a killer's M2 while it's active. Twins (until this upcoming patch) and Artist have their M2 disabled while near hooks. Disabling a killer's M2 is already a thing that exists in game. Nobody was ever talking about disabling all traps mapwide, turning off the chain hunt, resetting Sadako's TVs, or whatever absolute nonsense BHVR is on about.

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,681

    I've suspected for a while he was saying whatever would bump-up his followers. He says to many things that make no sense.

    I'm glad the devs are not listening to streamers. Listening this one and a few other's opinion would ruin the game.

  • SaltyNooty
    SaltyNooty Member Posts: 276

    I SOMEWHAT agree with what he's saying, like how DS should be Basekit and should cancel the killers power…but for 10 - 20 seconds is excessive, even as a survivor main.

    That can EASILY be abused and shuts down every killer in the game if they can't access their ability for a period of time like that. Maybe for 3/4/5 additional seconds AFTER THE STUN should be enough but 10 seconds pushing it besides the fact of the amount of killers that'd complain about it.

    The point of DS and DS itself is to deter tunneling killers, if Killers DONT tunnel; this won't affect them. Making Killers weaker because they chose to tunnel is good idea but an even better idea would've been just making DS basekit; bottom line.

  • Lolsalot12321
    Lolsalot12321 Member Posts: 22

    also this feels like a massive over complication of something that really isnt that complex.

    currently, the problem with ds is that its super unfair in its value between the killers it is used on, nurse doesnt care, the weak killers do.

    even if the solution of making it disable powers has some killers still keeping the passive component of their powers active, ie traps, chain hunts and pig boxes, isnt this still a far better solution than triggering ds and then having nurse blink onto you immediately after her stun time is over?

    i also really dont see how this can limit new killers, all it has to do is make them an m1 killer for a short duration, it cant be that bad

  • Lolsalot12321
    Lolsalot12321 Member Posts: 22

    i didnt even think of this, wow, yeah it really shouldn't be that hard XD

  • Lolsalot12321
    Lolsalot12321 Member Posts: 22

    honestly if it was 10 seconds, i really wouldnt care, playing a weak killer? bam dont care, basically no difference.

    Strong killer? ok now im far weaker, and it was well earny by survivors, and i was punished for trying to play sweaty as a strong killer.

  • jokere98
    jokere98 Member Posts: 580

    why not just disable "M2 button" for some time? so, passive/already placed powers keep working, but you can't blink/rush immediately after stun

  • DBD78
    DBD78 Member Posts: 3,455

    It's the same problem as all strong survivor perks. A 5 second DS is good for us solo survivors and we need it while SWF teams have each other also and don't need that buff it's just going to make it even harder to kill one survivor in these games.

  • alpha5
    alpha5 Member Posts: 333

    Agreed, the hook is the issue, but changing something this fundamental would only be appropriate for a sequel.

  • Ricardo170373
    Ricardo170373 Member Posts: 693
    edited April 2

    i Think the problem about tunnel is the early game tunnel, so, i think DS should work with how gens are done. For example

    DS time stun: 5 seconds if u will use with 5 gens up
    DS time stun: 4 seconds if u will use with 4 gens up
    DS time stun: 3 seconds if u wil use with 3, 2 or 1 gen up
    DS deactivate when gates are powered.

    Or, reduce the time DS is active after unhook and put the stun time at 4sec

    DS active: 60 seconds, 5 seconds if u will use with 5 gens up

    DS active: 50 seconds, 4 seconds if u will use with 5 gens up

    DS Active: 40 seconds, 3 gens

    DS Active: 30 seconds, 2 and 1 gen

    DS deactivate when gates are powered

  • BOFH
    BOFH Member Posts: 16

    To mildly paraphrase Dr. Strangelove: "A weapon is only useful as a threat if the other side knows you have it!"

  • Rokku_Rorru
    Rokku_Rorru Member Posts: 1,129

    Isn't it just a matter of marking killers with high mobility have a tag?

  • ArcT
    ArcT Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 92

    That would be work too. People have provided a lot of examples in this thread of both mechanics disabling powers already in the game (so it can be done), and ways to implement this mechanic.

    But what we've not seen at all is an acknowledgement that the devs do actually see this disparity between how much killers are affected as an issue that needs to be addressed, and if they do, what are they planning to do to address it?

    From where I'm sitting, the attitude seems to be that there is no issue with how different killers are affected by DS. Does someone at BHVR care to clarify that point?

    Certain killers are clearly warping the game and its mechanics. Nurse, for example, singlehandedly got Awakened Awareness majorly nerfed from its initial version. The number of killers that truly warp the game in unhealthy ways, like being able to basically ignore DS, is still relatively small, and it hardly seems like too much work or complexity just to make special cases for a few of them. They already exist! Plague loses her power when stunned. Artist can't M2 near hooked survivors. These rules and limitations already exist. If another killer is introduced that is similarly too strong, it's not having to redo all 30 killers to account for it having a bad interaction with one perk. It's just tweaking that killer.

  • Rokku_Rorru
    Rokku_Rorru Member Posts: 1,129

    I mean it's why I've always felt like high mobility needs to go or be nerfed severely, maps are getting smaller and smaller to make lower tier killers lives easier, but in turn are making high mobility even more obnoxious and impossible to escape from, as it stands right now a lot of maps a nurse can teleport anywhere so long as she is in the centre… thats just crazy lol

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,126
    edited April 3

    Peanits's first paragraph implies two things to me.

    1. DS is not to be the solution to tunneling, perhaps there are plans for more anti tunnel perks in the pipeline?
    2. The devs don't think tunneling should be shut down like AFC did for face camping or regression cap for 3 gen stalling. Tunneling is not something new, it's been around for a long time. If devs wanted to shut it down, they wouldn't have to introduce workarounds like OTR, DS, basekit BT etc.

    Which leads to the question, "Why can't tunneling be shut down completely? Wouldn't this make the game healthier?"

    There is a good likelihood that the answer to the above question is no. The devs are the ones holding all the data, they probably have a pretty good idea of what would happen if tunneling was removed and they do not view this "Non tunnel version of DBD" as a priority, so the next best thing is to introduce bandaids via perks and basekits.

    It's not about how to stop tunneling, it's about why tunneling should be stopped.

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 5,485

    General consensus seems to suggest that when the tunnelling occurs matters. So tunnelling at 5 gens or when dominating the game is frowned upon, while tunnelling in late game or when the killer is struggling is considered fine. So (my assumption of course) I imagine that the devs probably can't really address tunneling when it frustrates people the most (early game) without it affecting tunnelling in general . Or if they can they might be concerned about the complexities it involves or issues it might cause later down the line.

    This is actually why I've always preferred the devs to address certain playstyles with perks (even if that is just a "bandaid"). I know I'm in the minority among survivor mains though, most would rather basekit changes. I don't think these sorts of playstyles need to be eliminated, there just should be some risk attached that the person you decided to tunnel may come equipped to deal with it. Just my 2 cents anyway.

  • caligraph
    caligraph Member Posts: 359

    So the counter to a perk that wants you not to tunnel is not to tunnel?

  • TWS001
    TWS001 Member Posts: 152

    In the PTB whenever it is now, I would have liked DS to be kept at 3 seconds but the killer gets an affliction, similar to the orange glyph killer challenges. I did one of those at the weekend and breaking generators and dropped pallets was painfully slow, like double the time. Something like that lasting for a period of time would have been better in my opinion.