You Can't Weaponise DS

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  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    so, the killer can avoid the DS and waste the time on finding another survivor while the one that bodyblocked with DS gets to be reset? That's literally still a lose-lose situation lol

  • WolfyWood
    WolfyWood Member Posts: 307
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    Why do people keep saying this? What do you want us to say?

    Tunneling happens anyways, how is this conclusion scary or taboo in any way?

    If you want to tunnel then tunnel.

  • MrPenguin
    MrPenguin Member Posts: 2,366
    edited May 4
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    "some" free distance is pretty important. That was the entire reason DH was ruling the meta for years and you're giving that to the person running away up to twice.

    If it wasn't strong people wouldn't use it this way. Outside of "for fun" builds. Which basically no one does.

    The survivors were going to have at least 2 people off gens regardless (unhooker + hooked). Using DS this way just waste more of the killers time than otherwise which is more gen time for the others. Especially with unbreakable or other perks thrown in to let the survivor get up themselves letting the other 2 focus on gens completely.

    Post edited by MrPenguin on
  • MrPenguin
    MrPenguin Member Posts: 2,366
    edited May 4
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    If it's so bad for survivors, why are so many of them doing it?
    Obviously it's to their benefit when its usage in this way is so widespread. If it was making them lose more, they would stop doing it.

    It's not just for "funny haha" we both know the community is not that fun loving, especially to their detriment. Otherwise we would see everyone running pebble.

    I don't really see why if the situation is overall worse for the survivors in most cases there'd so many of them knowingly doing it on purpose.

    My guess is overall the loss of the hook state and killer time wasted is more valuable than the little time the survivors lose on gens. Especially if Survivor with DS has Unbreakable or something to get up themselves. There was going to be at least 2 survivors off gens in either scenario. This one just waste more of the killers time, which is more gen time for the other 2.

    Post edited by MrPenguin on
  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    now look at it actually from the killer's perspective.

    You are chasing the unhooker. Unhooked person goes their way to bodyblock you with basekit BT or just simply waste your time. You down them, you slug them. Now the unhooker is the one that is being chased while unhooked survivor wasted your time denying a hook. There is still one survivor peacefully doing a gen, or even two if the downed survivor with DS has Plot Twist (yes, DS with Plot Twist is an ultimate lose-lose for the killer).

    This means you have huge chunks of your time wasted while you have 1-2 survivors doing gens constantly. Keeping pressure on survivors to hold them off gens is 100% reliable against survivors bad in chase who don't know the value of wasting killer's time, but against teams that know what they are doing, you are pretty much going to be cooled by having 1-2 survivors constantly and successfully waste your time, while the other ones do gens.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 262
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    I may be wrong but doesn't plot twist require the survivor go down without being hit? I've never ran it so I genuinely don't know. If that's the case, they aren't wasting your time with having to make a first hit or if endurance is in play, a second hit. It would be even less beneficial as now you are going to be even closer to the first person you were chasing without the distance loss from the hit.

    The unhooked survivor wouldn't have wasted my time by denying a hook with DS. I never intended to hook them to begin with. My goal was the unhooked person. The free down from the hooked person is just someone not doing anything but wasting a few more seconds of my time and not doing gens. They can't mindgame me, they can't run me to another loop, etc... As they were never my target. Their only option for bodyblocking is to get in my way and make the hits free.

    That being said, whether ds was in play or not. The scenario is still the same with 2 people possibly on gens except now there may even be 3. You also may not have the pressure from the slug and may still be in chase with the person you started with.

    I'm not directing this next part directly towards you but it's starting to feel like people think survivors shouldn't be doing gens at all. A killer shouldn't be able to keep all 4 survivors off gens while they are chasing someone. There is/should always be at least one person on a gen but one or two is much better than three or four on them.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,169
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    One survivor slugged and chasing other is good situation to be on killer. That means only 2 survivors on gens instead 3 and the other one still has to go pick the slugged one as soon killer will have 2 survivors down so only 1 survivor on gen. I would thank the survivor giving me free pressure.

    How I see it is that basekit bt is the bigger problem taking hit with it means killer gained barely anything. Sure survivor have to mend but that's not much when unhooker is now healthy going to good loop. Killer loses pressure.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,424
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    Nice thread, liked how you defended the arguments throughout.

    I think the simple point is that survivors can run in and body block the killer with or without DS. Everything about whether protection hits give a lot of time or a little amount of time to the chased survivor is a moot point - the survivor can body block regardless of whether they have DS or not. Endurance can force the killer to eat through two hits, DS can only force one.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    This is definitely something worth raising, though I think it's slightly apart from the overall conversation being had in the rest of the thread.

    Anti-tunnel in general suffers from this one specific lack in the Conspicuous Actions list and I'd like to see that changed. Getting a save should 100% be a Conspicuous Action and that applies to more perks than just DS.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,546
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    When you take is completely out of context, sure it sounds stupid.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    Remember that the alternative to this situation is the unhooked survivor not bodyblocking, and instead going to work on generators.

    In the alternative scenario, you have three survivors consistently on gens while you're in chase. I'm sure you'll agree there's at least some amount of extra time in chase that would be worth it in order to cut down the gen efficiency by a full third?

  • Neaxolotl
    Neaxolotl Member Posts: 591
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    DS can force killers to a lose lose situation where they HAS to slug or take the DS, it can be certainly weaponized

    Whether it's efficient or not is not relevant to it

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    That's not a lose/lose situation. That is a lose/win situation, because having one survivor slugged and one in chase is better for you than just having one in chase.

    It used to be a lose/lose scenario because ignoring the survivor with DS meant they could progress the game in your face. Now, if you ignore them and they want to bait you, they have to waste time running around after you and trying to bodyblock.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    you can have just 2 survivors working on gens and be much more effective as a team than 4 survivors going for gens :D

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    how is it a lose/win situation if you are denied a hook after downing a survivor and are forced into another chase, especially if the unhooker was a healthy survivor?

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    yes, Plot Twist works withoug getting downed, meaning you can use Plot Twist after getting unhooked, or provoke killer into a chase and Plot Twist right before they are about to hit you, meaning easy value out of it.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    Because you were never going to hook that survivor. You're ignoring them and continuing the chase you were actually interested in to begin with, and if they let themselves get downed to try (and fail) to get your attention, you now have two occupied survivors instead of just one.

    That survivor just got unhooked, of course you weren't going to hook them again. If you were we wouldn't be having this conversation because DS would actually warrant activating. The survivor you're interested in for this hypothetical is the unhooker, who you are now completely free to chase unimpeded by someone trying to bodyblock.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 262
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    Yes but if they plot twist off hook then they aren't body blocking. If they manage to bait you into a swing with it, then honestly, well played by them. But you still aren't losing as much distance against the first survivor on a missed swing compared to a hit.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    Even if it's net neutral it still isn't in the survivor's favour. It's still not successfully weaponising DS because they don't get anything out of it from DS. All they get is the extension to chase that the bodyblocking gives them at the cost of being slugged, which uses up some kind of resource or requires someone else to peel away from generators if they want to undo it.

    Also, I don't care about tournaments, I care about real games.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    saying "you don't get value from DS if you don't get picked up" is the same as saying "you don't get value from Corrupt Intervention if you get an early down" lol

  • CrackedShevaMain
    CrackedShevaMain Member Posts: 286
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    we’re not talking about tournaments. We’re talking about normal gameplay in which the vast majority of matches don’t go the way you guys are describing. Youre all describing high level, coordinated SWFs who are running very specific builds all together which only happens in the top MMR games, according to BHVRs own stats.

    In the low and mid tier games survivors aren’t going into matches to play like this and especially not at solo Q levels. It really seems like killer mains are taking that 1-2 matches where they got destroyed by survivors running DS, OTR, BU, FTP and using that to argue this “weaponizing DS” theory.

    Even so, the OP is correct. Survivors do not want to be slugged so if you slug then even IF they have unbreakable (which they can only use once) it takes time to recover. It’s not an instant stand up. If you slug the person who may be running DS, you still have 2 survivors occupied and if they need another teammate to pick them up, that’s 3 survivors occupied which is a win for the killer.

    For the “but I’m trying to play nice and not tunnel” crowd. Thats admirable BUT (and I say this as a survivor who hates all the constant tunneling) if you’ve got a survivor who is throwing themselves in your face, body blocking and trying to get you to eat their DS: tunnel them out. It’s one thing to tunnel someone off hook at 5 gens who isn’t in your face. It’s quite another to tunnel someone who is clearly going out of their way to get your attention on them. They want your attention so give it to them!

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    Again, the "value" being created here is that you get slugged.

    That's the value. That's the outcome of DS in this scenario, you get to be slugged, which forces you to either use up your Unbreakable (or Plot Twist? Does Plot Twist work if you aren't the one to down yourself?) or to drag someone else off generators to pick you up.

    This isn't weaponising DS. The weapon here harms you, not your opponent.

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,654
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    Whoa, now!

    If there are only 2 survivors working on gens, minimal gens left, and you're occupied elsewhere with the other 2 survivors, that's a HUGE win for you, apparently…you can win EXTRA hard if they are using UB or Adrenaline.

    >_>

    <_<

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    So, couple things.

    1: When you're running down the use case for just DS here, you say that slugging the DS survivor means starting "a new chase", but it's not a new chase. It's the chase you were already having, and the survivor you were chasing got a protection hit's worth of distance. Not nothing, but not enough for it to count as a new chase, either.

    2: Also in that first use case, you mention "have the downed survivor be fully reset by another survivor" as though that bolsters your point, but it actually undoes your point. That scenario involves THREE survivors off generators, and you expect me to believe that's somehow not beneficial to the killer?

    3: DS combined with OTR just kind of circles back around to how a lot of people think scenarios where OTR is used to tank hits is somehow weaponising DS. That's not weaponising DS, it's bodyblocking with OTR. If they follow you for a second hit, you down them and THEN we start talking about DS, and you've also been chasing two survivors at once for that entire time.

    4: I don't understand your point about Plot Twist at all. Just ignore them? They were going to reset anyway, they're not a target you're actually interested in at the moment. Just ignore them and let them use their perk while not actually stopping you from chasing their teammate. They get the exact same value as if they ran AWAY from you and used their Plot Twist.

    I think this point (still on 4 here) sort of highlights that a lot of people only compare these aggressive bodyblocking plays with scenarios where they get to hook the person bodyblocking, but that's looking at it the wrong way. If you're not tunnelling, you're not going to be paying attention to the unhooked survivor anyway. If in these scenarios they get away with not getting hooked, that's the same as if they weren't being aggressive at all. The only difference is that they're gifting YOU more pressure by intentionally cutting potential generator efficiency down by a third because they want to TRY and weaponise their perks.

    Moving on, yeah, you can't weaponise DS. You can't force the killer to actually eat the stun, and what you can force them to do - slug you - is as beneficial to them as it is to you at BEST. More realistically, it's JUST beneficial to them. A weapon that harms you more than your opponent isn't a weapon worth talking about.

    As a brief aside, this argument all comes from the killer perspective, not the survivor perspective, so your attempt at snidely insulting my gameplay is missing the mark extra hard.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    you can literally do the same in soloQ.

    And if you think we should look at the things and balance them around the average skill (terrible btw), we shouldn't.

  • ArkInk
    ArkInk Member Posts: 535
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    It depends on the state of the match, no?

    If the killer only has 2 hooks and the survs are at 2 gens, the survs being able to delay the possibility of a hook is a win-win for them, regardless of whether one of them goes down, because time is ultimately on their side, especially if another teammate is in the area for a pickup or unbreakable is in play. The survivor has no hooks, and the killer's only map pressure comes from someone they can't use to progress their objective. In this situation I would rather be halfway through chasing the unhooker with the unhooked survivor healing or on a gen than have so much time wasted with a slug I can't pick up and nobody new to chase in sight, but that's just me.

    That said, if there's a time and point in the match where the killer is up, like 6 hooks 4 gens, a DS bodyblock isn't nearly as effective because the killer doesn't need to rush with finishing their objective, so I'd actually perfer getting two survivors off gens, less so if Unbreakable is in play, but that's a whole perk deactivated. One could make the argument that this line of thinking could apply to many other perks, but DS bodyblock being almost entirely within a survivor's control, having such a possibly annoying effect, especially when this is supposed to be for an Anti-tunnel perk, it just feels bad. If you'll notice, tunneling isn't at all relevant to the playstyle we're referring to, so what did I do to get it incurred on me, what was my agency here in activating a perk that was only supposed to be useful depending on the killer's playstyle?

    That's ultimately my issue with current DS. I don't think it's an issue at all when it's actually an Anti-tunnel perk, but when I'm halfway through a MacMillan match where 2 gens pop in the first minute, I challenge my single unhook up to this point in the game, and then Meg fr decides to give me the biggest hug of her life while Vittorio sprint bursts to main building where I know he's got Boil Over to use upstairs, I'm sorry, but the Anti-Tunnel perk made me tunnel. I didn't wanna, but what else was I genuinely going to do there?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    Not necessarily. I've had a lot of matches swing from two hooks to a 4k specifically because of tactics like this.

    The fact of the matter is, letting the killer down you is always a huge risk. It's only really guaranteed to work if they take the bait and eat a stun, but if they don't, you've just given them a window to potentially snowball that game back into their control because they're creating a lot of situations the survivors need to respond to.

    Also, again, people keep acting like slugging a DS user means starting a new chase, but it doesn't. You're already in a chase and that survivor didn't make that much distance, you keep chasing them. Sure, sometimes they have a very specific setup that makes chasing them a nightmare, but the times where a bodyblock makes the difference between them making it and you getting them are pretty damn rare.

    The bottom line would be that immobilising a survivor on the ground is always better for you than that survivor going off to do generators. Hooking that survivor would be even better, but hooking that survivor isn't a situation that would be relevant to this conversation, so we necessarily must compare slugging them to them just being off and doing whatever they want away from you.

  • OmegaXII
    OmegaXII Member Posts: 2,181
    edited May 4
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    For your 3rd point, it’s 100% false, literally.

    Yes, OTR allows you to bodyblock hits. But then Killer has two option. He either chase you, or continue to chase the unhooker.

    Now here’s what DS does. It STOPS Killers from going after YOU, even when you did such an aggressive play just because the risk of DS. No, don’t tell Killer to just slug you, because chasing & downing you takes time, while the remaining 3 Survivors are now all Gen Rushing without any fear because they know Killer can’t progress their objective (Hook You) even if you’re downed.

    Yes you don’t get to actually ‘use’ DS to stun the Killer, but you already benefit hugely from it. If you still don’t understand, just play some Killer games.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    But you're not going after that survivor anyway.

    You are in chase with the unhooker already. Hit the OTR/DS user and keep chasing the unhooker.

    Your ultimate goal when someone is trying to weaponise any kind of anti tunnel is to ignore them. You only hit them - into Deep Wound or into the dying state - if you can't avoid it. Otherwise, you just keep paying attention to the chase you're currently in. You don't reverse course and start chasing the person you know you can't hook just to slug them, you ignore them and slug them only if they make you slug them.

    If they do make you, that's a good situation for you. If they don't, then you just keep chasing like normal. The best case scenario (and frankly, one of the more common ones) is that they'll keep running after you but won't actually have any doorways to bodyblock you in and you just get to chase two survivors at once for no downside.

    I do play killer games. That's how I know these things, I'm pulling from my experience and my wider understanding of the game.

  • ArkInk
    ArkInk Member Posts: 535
    edited May 4
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    True, I've been able to swing a few matches from a 2 hooks to a 4k involving these strats, but that depends largely on survivor misplay, which again puts this "Anti-Tunnel Perk" back into their control. This playstyle is fundamentally against the perks design activation condition, which is to punish killers who won't leave unhooked survivors alone. It's why the Conspicuous Action condition is there.

    Hooking is absolutely important when referring to this perk, because it's what the killer is trying to do. If that logic where applied uniformly, gens are off the table too. DS stops the killer from getting a hook on a down, therefore being downed is now only valuable to the killer from a slowdown or bait perspective. Ergo, hooking survivors is relevant to the discussion by nature of it being off the table when it usually is.

    And yes, survivors aren't always in the position for the unhooker to basically disappear or become unhookable, but what happens when they are? What happens when a survivor or a team goes into a match with this strategy in mind? Is that not weaponizing DS? Is this still somehow related to tunneling?

    I also feel like Unbreakable is just largely being ignored as a possibility here. There are 4 survivors in a match, so a killer's time is 4 times more valuable than a survivors. A killer's weapon wipe is 2.7 seconds. Not counting the amount of time a killer may waste before realizing they need to hit the unhooked survivor, that's 5.4 seconds wasted on hits, 21.6 seconds in survivor time. With Unbreakable, 24 seconds wasted in survivor time on a single survivor is used to commit to the play. Yes, a killer's advantage, but keep in mind again that this is within a survivor's control, and they could have altered the situation before going into it to waste more time.

    In the current situation, yes, I agree that DS bodyblock is a misplay. But there's a lot of BS in DBD, doubly so now that the latest patch is filled with enough bugs to make Bethesda blush. Do you think that there is no match that occurs where a survivor can waste five seconds for a killer, not get hooked for it, and the killer is the one who ends up benefitting? You don't think that on Midwich or The Game, an unhooker can make it to a window or pallet that justifies why a survivor team would choose to delay a hook for as long as possible? What if the killer is an Instadown killer like Oni or Bubba? That unhooker is a lot more vulnerable, the survivor team may have much more incentive to keep them safe for longer than an unhooked who's guaranteed not to get picked up without wasting even more of a killer's time. How about Plague? She loses Red Vomit on DS stun now, that's even more safety for the survivor. What if the Unhooker is on death hook? You'd definitely want that DS Bodyblock to make sure they don't die right there and then.

    We can't be referring to this perk in isolation, because there are many factors wherein it simply becomes a better option than the alternative. This isn't an unpopular opinion either, it was a top 10 comp perk before it was buffed.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
    edited May 4
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    Oh, come on, that's a nitpick and you know it. Obviously when I say your ultimate goal is to ignore them, I mean insofar as countering their tactic, not the overall goal of the entire match.

    But I'm glad this is where the conversation has gone, because it's revealed now that the problem isn't survivors weaponising DS, the problem is that you want to punish someone for annoying you and DS stops you from doing it. That's not the same thing, at all, even a little bit.

    If you don't care about that element and you just want to respond with the appropriate tactic for like, winning, you'd ignore them because they're giving you free value. Same reason why flashlight squads can actually be great to go against for some players, they're free wins with very active gameplay— but they can be annoying to some players too.

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    To be blunt, no, those things aren't weaponising DS. They're weaponising bodyblocking.

    The core of my position is two statements, I'm gonna repeat them now just for easy reference.

    Statement one: The survivor cannot force the killer to eat a DS stun, not even as the lesser of two evils like they could before the Conspicuous Actions change.

    Statement two: The only thing the survivor can do is force the killer to slug them, and BECAUSE that outcome is always better for the killer than the survivor being up and about, that can't be considered weaponising.

    You may end up in a position with DS bodyblocking where someone makes a pallet or a window, or a key generator gets done, or something along those lines. But, barring a very specific single perk in a very specific situation (Adrenaline, with the final gen being the one done because of this play— and even then they're injured instead of healthy afterwards), you will always have a slug on the ground while you recover from that blow, which is always better than that survivor being free to do whatever they want.

    The reason WHY a killer's time is more valuable than a survivor's time is relevant here, too. The killer's time is more valuable because any one of their seconds spent outside of chase could be four seconds of generator time. Basically nothing else matters for this very specific concept, and in fact, pushing survivors to do other beneficial actions like healing is part of how killers spread pressure and play the macro game. Their goal, minute to minute, is to lower that "one second for me is four seconds for them" number as much as possible by forcing survivors into actions that aren't repairs, like saves, heals, and chases.

    So, we can see with this in mind how a survivor slugged on the ground is always beneficial compared to that survivor being free to do what they want. If they're slugged, they're not contributing to that "one second is four seconds" number, but if they're up and about they are.

    That's why your math is a little off, because you're not factoring in that you're already occupying two survivors. That 21.6 seconds number you cite is actually 10.8 seconds because only two survivors are actually using those seconds to progress the game, potentially.

    To cap off, I'm actually not thinking of this perk in isolation. I am factoring in these things, which is why I come to the conclusion that the best case scenario that survivors can force with DS is still beneficial to the killer in at least some way. Even when survivors get as much as they can out of it, they're still giving the killer slowdown and potentially using up resources like Unbreakable.

  • EQWashu
    EQWashu Member, Mod Posts: 4,704
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    Let's remember to keep the discussions in here civil, please. Thank you.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,424
    edited May 4
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    But I'm glad this is where the conversation has gone, because it's revealed now that the problem isn't survivors weaponising DS, the problem is that you want to punish someone for annoying you and DS stops you from doing it. That's not the same thing, at all, even a little bit.

    I think this is a big part of it. There seems to be a stance that once a chase begins between killer and survivor, the other 3 survivors should just stay out of it.

  • ArkInk
    ArkInk Member Posts: 535
    edited May 4
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    To be blunt, no, those things aren't weaponising DS. They're weaponising bodyblocking.

    I don't really know how to approach this conversation given this statement, as it feels so completely devoid of context within the match it makes the rest of the conversation essentially untraversable.

    I'll say this, if someone Body Blocks and doesn't have DS, that survivor is on death hook and I have even more pressure than five seconds ago. If that survivor has DS, I'm getting a five second stun. No, a survivor a cannot force you to activate their perk, that does not prevent them from reaping the reward the perk grants them by nature of its presence. You made this argument yourself by saying the best thing to do against DS is purposely not pick up the surv, meaning DS actively affected your decision making process in the bodyblocking. How a perk can completely change the action you take in a situation, yet somehow be exempt from weaponizing said situation is something I simply don't feel like arguing over.

    If that hasn't convinced you that DS affects bodyblocking and allows it's weaponization, therefore being weaponized in the process, I don't really think this is a conversation worth either of our times, sorry.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    Well, I'll try and alleviate that concern a little, because I do have an answer.

    It did affect my decision making, yes, but the decision I made is better for me than for my opponent. As I've said multiple times in this thread, I do not consider a weapon that harms its user more than its opponent to be a weapon worth talking about or naming as such.

    In the scenario you describe, you say that a survivor body blocking and not having DS means they're hooked again and that's more pressure for you, but it isn't, really, it's just more direct progression towards your goal. You're at best breaking even on the map pressure you're exuding because you're just resetting back to the same situation as before; one on hook, one coming for the save, two on gens. The two on gens haven't even stopped this whole time, for that matter.

    You get more pressure from slugging the survivor who tries to body block regardless of if they have DS, because you're making more of a push for reactions from the survivor team. If they have Unbreakable, they have to use it and get it out of the way. If they don't, one of the two on gens actually has to come pick them up and that does even more damage to the team's overall efficiency, all while you're still occupying that unhooker in a chase.

    Countering DS bodyblocking turns it into a tactic that benefits you. That's not weaponising, because it's your weapon.

  • ArkInk
    ArkInk Member Posts: 535
    edited May 4
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    I see, but this relies soley on the idea that DS Bodyblock is always detrimental to the survivors. Which, if this were true, killers would slug the first survivor off hook all the time, because that would therefore always be the best thing to do, right?

    Hypothetical. There's 1 gen left, and someone Body Blocks you off hook with DS, the unhooker is on death hook. Is your mindset "oh boy the next survivor is absolutely making it to the next god Pallet, but at least I have a slug while the last gen is being done across the map." Or are you thinking "I need that Unhooker dead right nooooooooow." Is Adrenaline in play? Is Unbreakable in play? You don't know either of these things. Depending on that answer, there's one or two survivors on the final gen, and that slug won't be slugged for longer than thirty seconds. You've lost five seconds of distance on the Unhooker, can you make it?

    My mindset is the latter, I assume you're the former. This is likely where the crux of our disagreement lies. I simply don't see DS as nearly as hard to get genuine use out of in this context, and I don't believe these situations are as uncommon as you.

    I don't want it to seem like I'm calling you crazy or anything, and tbh it's disappointing to see how uncivil people are about this. I'm still honestly less peeved about the actual perk effect and more annoyed that it's on what's supposed to be an Anti-Tunnel perk, and that a lot of survivors try the strat and then get upset in the endgame chat when it backfires. I liked 3 second DS more simply because at this current point in the games life where Tunneling was already one of the most hotly debated topics, buffing it to 5 seconds feels like a Bandaid for the strat without actually solving it whilst allowing for another toxic situation that doesn't even fit how the perk is designed.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    The thing about that hypothetical is that the thing which is giving the survivors value is the bodyblocking, not the DS. That would still be in their best interest to do if the person who just got unhooked had no anti-tunnel tools at all, especially if they'd been on their first hook when they were saved.

    Bodyblocking can absolutely be weaponised, both in legitimate/balanced ways and in problematic ways. The only thing DS adds to any of these circumstances is that it forces the killer to slug instead of just shrugging and hooking that survivor again.

    In other words, it forces the killer to make the bigger-value play instead of following the path of less resistance. DS is the part that can't be weaponised because the impact it has on this situation is to push the killer into capitalising on the free pressure whether they'd know that's what they're doing or not.

    As to the first question in that first paragraph: No, because they'd have to go out of their way to do it, and that'd waste a lot of time. In the scenarios we're talking about, the survivor is the one going out of their way to make sure the only investment the killer has to make is a weapon-attack cooldown, because they're making sure there's absolutely zero distance or resources between themselves and the killer. In that scenario, slugging is absolutely better because you don't have to do anything other than hit the survivor to achieve it. They're gifting it to you almost for free.

  • ArkInk
    ArkInk Member Posts: 535
    edited May 4
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    I'd disagree there that slugging is the best option. That slug can get Adrenaline or Unbreakable, which results in nothing for a killer. I'd hook that survivor to force at least someone to eventually unhook. Chase the unhooker and hope that you can down both survivors on death hook for a tie before the gen and gate are done. The alternative is slugging the unhooked and booking it to the final gen, which gives survivors a chance to reset what otherwise would be a situation in your favor as you now need to leave the only death hook survivor alone and risk the final gen being done in your face.

    In other words, DS is preventing me from the making the play I think is the best call despite my actively not tunneling (ie respecting its activation condition). That's weaponized. I don't really care if bodyblocking is what's causing my problem, it's that DS is a get out of jail free card from the consequences that should come with making that decision. You can disagree with me, but that doesn't make you right, and I shouldn't be forced into a situation like that by a perk that is patently not designed to make that situation possible.

    Post edited by ArkInk on
  • OmegaXII
    OmegaXII Member Posts: 2,181
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    "But I'm glad this is where the conversation has gone, because it's revealed now that the problem isn't survivors weaponising DS, the
    problem is that you want to punish someone for annoying you and DS stops you from doing it."

    So you agreed it's an annoying thing to face, and it still doesn't count as weaponize DS? And now you're suggesting Killers to actually ignore these acts, and say it's BETTER to ignore them? So I just have to take the bodyblock in the face, leave them alone in Deep Wound just to get mended in 12s and get on Gens rightaway, all while I chase the healthy unhooker who's already miles away?

    Just ask yourself. If DS doesn't exist, would these Survivors dare to bodyblock killers with BT/OTR? It's exactly because of DS Backup that allows them to weaponize these perks without any fear.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    Yep. It's annoying to face, but it isn't weaponising DS, because the thing DS is doing actually makes it a BETTER situation for you as killer.

    So yes. I am saying that you should ignore them. Ignoring them forces them to keep running after you so they can try to actually bodyblock, and hitting them once only when you cannot avoid it keeps them invested while you continue to chase the unhooker. Even if they do get put in Deep Wound and go mend + do generators… that's still noticeably less generator time than they'd have gotten if they weren't trying to bodyblock. Also, none of that is DS, that's all Endurance. Leading to…

    Answering your final question: Yep. We've only had five-second DS for a short while at this point, surely you haven't forgotten that bodyblocking with BT/OTR has been a big thing this whole time? Like, straight up. Yes. Yes, survivors do body block without DS. They've been doing it this whole time.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 262
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    Im not understanding how the healthy unhooker could have that much distance? They don't get the speed boost that the body blocker gets from the hit and if you were chasing them to begin with they shouldn't be that far ahead.

    On another note, I don't see why we all keep saying the unhooker. If that's always the case then it's no wonder gens are getting done. Running back to or proxy camping hooks to always hit the unhooker isn't going to do anything to stop the other 2 from doing gens.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,173
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    To be fair, while you're right about that, this conversation can only happen if we assume the killer is back at the hook for some reason.

    If they're halfway across the map pressuring other survivors, DS definitely can't be weaponised. I think it's fair to assume that it was like, an insta-save, or you just happen to be back at the hook because that's the only info you have, or something along those lines.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 262
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    I can definitely see the insta unhooks being a part of it. The rest though, I'm not sure. If gens are still being done during all this then they should definitely have enough info by just patrolling the gens on occasion. Otherwise it sounds like all the survivors must be near the person on hook. In which case they aren't making any progress to begin with and I'd just eat all the ds's and be done with it lol.

    That being said, there have been times I've also seen people get unhooked and run cross map to use their DS. The biggest issue with that is they usually make it a fast free hit and let's me know they have ds, that is probably about to run out.

  • ChaosWam
    ChaosWam Member Posts: 1,290
    edited May 4
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    Time.

    Killer doesn't always have the time to waste on a new chase across the map, especially if survivors pre-run from their gen compared to say, someone who just unhooked in the killer's face before they could leave. This is how my current DS/OTR/UB build gets killers.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 262
    edited May 4
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    Unhooking in someone's face I can understand. It happens more than it really should. Though I don't really understand how time affects staying near the hook as it is more of a gamble. If the survivors are a coordinated team looking to win, they will just knock out the gens while the killer stays near the hooked survivor. Meaning the killer just wasted the time they could've been using to run survivors off a gen. Just to watch a hooked survivor that no one was near until they absolutely need to try for the save.

    If they are overly altruistic it may play in the killers favor as well. That can also happen.