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How fun and fair is to play soloQ with ~39% escape rate?
Comments
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How about the survivor that DCs before their third hook? What happens if that match was nearly over and the other three happen to escape. That match too gets thrown out. Not every DC match is because a killer slugs every survivor.
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I highly doubt DCs when the team has already lost happen anywhere near as often as going next on hook. Both are unknown variables, but one is certainly a lot more likely than the other. After all, why quit and get hit with a matchmaking penalty that delays your next game longer than the bleed out timer (or going next on hook, if able,) and compounds the matchmaking delay with each DC?
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It doesn't help that anything even remotely interesting or fun has been nerfed over the past couple years as well.
I personally don't think a 60% kill rate would be bad on its own if the rest of the gameplay was also fun and engaging. But the game has been shifting toward competitive slog, and isn't really chase oriented anymore. So survivors are just losing more, and it isn't even a fun match in the process. Your only hope is to do gens fast enough before someone gets tunneled out.
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Solo is so bad and I wouldn’t care if I died most of the time if the role was fun or my skill mattered more. Most of my games are me doing gens while a worse looper gets tunneled. Then when I finally do get chased most loops have been burned and the Killer is slugging for the 4K. I don’t blame the killer for avoiding good loopers but I don’t blame Survivors for joining a SWF to solve solo issues.
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My only issue with solo que is the team mates if people didn't dc, hide all game or give up on hook easily so many games would be much better.
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The killer is supposed to be the power role. Escaping is supposed to be difficult. Any expectation of higher than 40% escape rate is just entitlement, IMHO. There’s a very good reason that the devs set 40% as the target escape rate. Anything above that and killers become punching bags for survivor entertainment, which is what they are against high MMR SWF coordinating on comms.
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I think I can count on one hand how many times I've seen that happen. Using outliers to say we shouldn't count DCs doesn't sound like a good argument.
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On the flip side, why should winning as killer have wins handed to them due to imbalance?
I don't think asking for a fair game is entitlement.
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I believe the example of 4 slugs is an outlier. Most of the DCs I've seen have been at the start of a match or if the survivor is dead on hook and goes down.
5 -
This ^
Your examples are extremely common and worth noting. Whereas 4 man slugs are ridiculously rare, like I haven't seen even one in hundreds of games.
Plus removing themselves on hook immediately at the start are very common and that's included in kill rates artificially raising them as well.
If anything kill rates are actually lower than what the data we have shows.
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When they are obviously losing. People are not leaving when they are winning. That's the problem with ignoring it.
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With Chaos shuffle going on the Survivor escape rate is roughly 50%-60% since meta slowdown is somewhat gone matches end in 2-3 mins ive had it so frequently you never seeing the killer or getting in a chase with them as long as the survivor is semi decent looper its pretty much over like Survivor is the power role in that mode. I think its just pretty telling and sad that Killers have to rely on perks more then their skill or power to get good results
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This is what they parrot to justify the wild imbalance between killer and survivor.
The reality is they just want it to be easy so they get that consistent dopamine hit from holding w and occasionally clicking a mouse.
If you think survivor is bad now, just give it another 12 months. The trend will continue. Kill rates to increase from here.
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Well, matches can be more than just mindless gen-rushing.
Many who play are also doing challenges, which may require you to hide in the terror radius for XX seconds (Explains the duck and crouch or urban evasion), open chests (mostly survivor daily rituals, where you need to escape with a new item), unhook safely (often multiple unhooks), or cleansing totems (some challenges and even some perks require totems).
And, doing more stuff nets you more points. More points = more levels, more items and all of that.0 -
Power role in One v Four mean 1 from the One should always beat 1 from the Four. Not One power over the Four.
Any players are entitled to win half of the time. 40% win rate average on survivor is something Devs put onto survivor side, doesnt make it "right"
I always hear killers try everything to prove 60% kill rate doesnt mean higher 50%. And they should be entitled to have 50% win rate. But still, 50 is still far higher than 40.10 -
50/50 sounds pretty fair to me.
Escaping should be just as easy as getting 3-4 kills as killer, against players of your own skill level.5 -
In theory, Devs aiming for 60% kill rate, mean any balancing would still goes around 60%. But its not simple as how you think it is.
Currently, tunneling with stack slowdowns is still by far, alot more effective and mind numbing to play than using other perks that require specific play style, macro, time management, spread pressure.
Devs buffing killers alot to make the later play style easier to perform, a way to encourage killers to play the later play style. And survivors are quite okay with it.
Except you cant stop killers using the insane buff to keep tunneling and stack slowdowns, this is where average survivors dont even have a chance against average killers.
I heard that games with a DC doesnt count into the stats. The only games counted are suicide on first hook when there is at least 50% chance to power Gates.
Otherwise, I dont see a survivor suicide on 2nd hook when killers get 8 hooks with 4 Gens remaining would affect the kill rate. The game ends in 3K and hatch escape either they stay or suicide.
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All solo players need is a separate mode. Solo players and killers are victims of a SWF. Therefore, they must unite against the true enemy.
Just ask yourself this question solo players. Do you really want to pay for the sins of SWF? After all, the killers cannot relax in the presence of a SWF, and therefore they will pre-emptively attack any lobby. After all, someone has to pay. In the current balance, those who do not deserve it pay the price.
I'm not offering the usual solo mode. He will be the personification of the hook game.
Solo mode. Every 1-2 players receive a built-in Decisive Strike and Off the Record for each hook stage for 120 seconds until a noticeable action is made. They become more powerful if you take the perks of the same name. Plus, in case of a slug, when there are 2 survivors left, each acquires Decisive Strike, Off the Record and Unbreakable without noticeable actions.
SWF mode. The game we have now is for 3-4 players. Solo players can go there if they want, and if there are no such players, they will give you a bot.
As a result, killer will have the choice to play fair hook games with solo players. Or camp, tunnel and slug in SWF mode. Because a SWF can easily cope with all the dishonest tactics of the killer. As a result, each side will find the opponents it deserves.
Therefore, I will repeat. Solo players, is it so important for you to live in the same lobby with a SWF and pay for all their sins? Or team up with the killers and create a regime that will protect you?
Well, as a keeper of all statistics, here’s what the lobbies looked like in different years.
October 2017
May 2019
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While this is true in some cases it is not the majority of the time. Yes a team could be winning but the individual survivor will lose on their next down. When they do go down they DC. This can be regardless of being the 3rd hook overall or the 9th hook.
If survivors mainly DC because of losing why do so many DC or take the easy route on first hook of the match? I've even seen it where the killer goes after each survivor evenly and the fourth one to go down DCs.
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I see this pretty often.
I play nice, round-robin the survivors and when I'm on the third rounds I get one or two DCs. Why? It would have been over in about 30 seconds.
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Explain what mean easy route? The perception of fairness is a massive problem for survivor. A Blight that downs someone immediately when the match starts has already put the killer in a winning position. Why should survivor waste time simply for a guaranteed loss?
Survivors don't have come back mechanics like killers.
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The amount of people thinking the game is already lost because of an early down or a bad start is baffling to me. Those games are still completely winnable. People's gauge on when "the game already basically over" or "not winnable" are ridiculously loose. Kind of like the amount of things called "tunneling" that aren't actually tunneling. Literally one bad chase as the killer can cost him the entire game. Many of these matches are more winnable as survivor than people think.
As a team the survivors can generally make many, many more mistakes and still win than the killer can.
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That certainly hasn't been my experience. I mean, sure I have gotten dc's as well, sometimes when the match was already lost, but not very often. Hook suicides are far more common than dc's.
Don't get me wrong, solo queue has it's rough edges. OP killers like Nurse still exist. Killer sided maps like new Haddonfield exist. Op strategies like tunneling and camping still exist. And solo queue could use some more information as well. Still, balance isn't that bad for solo queue, at least not if you've got a team of decent survivors. Matchmaking and people giving up is a bigger issue in my opinion. But solo queue could definitely need some improvements.
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No not really. I mean the game surely has some balance issues towards solo queue, but the reason for the higher kill rate is surely also because of the hook suicides. Survivors weren't strangers to hook suicides before the big killer buff patch for example.
I do think they should go for a 55% kill rate target though. That to me makes more sense. And they could easily achieve this by nerfing op killer strategies like tunneling and camping, and/or buffing solo queue by giving them more information.
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Kill rates are often cited as the basis for disastrous experiences.
In the first place, if survivors boast an average escape rate of 40%, then in theory at least one survivor should escape every game.
In reality, 4K is also possible, so it's not so simple to say. However, those who claim to play 5gen4k every game will not be able to embody 40% unless they experience many escapes.This means that survivors are always divided into those who cannot escape and those who are often able to escape. On top of that, considering the existence of suicides and AFK, we can infer that the actual survivor escape rate is not that bad.
Survivors with a certain level of skill generally have a high chance of surviving until the end, so even if they die, they will feel highly satisfied with the game. Therefore, the mortality rate itself cannot be a reason for not enjoying the game.
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The problem is one I continue to echo over and over: Killers are too varied in power and the stats we get are due to top tier killers doing well, low tier killers scraping by, and a looooooooooooooooooooooooot of getting out of the game off first hook.
Anyone who does a generalized sweeping opinion of killers linking them to killrates without mentioning that not every killer is Nurse, I tend to ignore because it's generalizing one of the bigger issues of the game. You make a sweeping nerf of all killers and the low tiers suffer while the high tiers kinda shrug it off.
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It's not fun at all, that's why I've stopped playing dbd outside of swf's. The game becomes actually fun then.
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The difference between the 4 slowdown nurse with meta addons and a perkless addonless trapper is similar to the difference between SWF and soloQ, if not lower. So it works both ways.
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A SoloQ team could absolutely decimate a perkless, addonless trapper.
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" Therefore, the mortality rate itself cannot be a reason for not enjoying the game."
I especially agree with this. The enjoyment has much less to do with whether I won or lost in much more to do with how I won or lost. Like I can still have fun losing if it was because I played bad since I can learn from that to do better next time.
Relating to this some interesting questions I polled people on were about "What matters more, how much you win or lose, or why you won or lost?"
The polls were pretty unanimous that people said why matters significantly more. Oddly enough though, when you ask about using kill rates for game balance, now the kills or escapes are all that matters, not the why. End result is all that matters. So the why only mattered more when it was personal for them, but they care much less of why in the broad sense of game changes/balance.
I found this quite odd. To me why always matters more and is why kill rates for example should not be directly used for balance as they are flawed by many, many factors. Yet people quote them religiously with why not mattering. Even when you show an example of a game that illustrates a problem for one side. Instead of focusing on the point, they'll say "but you you/ya'll won", like that changes any of the point.
Perhaps it's people just only caring about whichever metric at the time backs up what they already want to believe. Confirmation Bias basically.
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Hey, I agree that tunneling and camping are too strong in the game right now. No doubt. I think 55% kill rate would be good enough, and to achieve that, they probably would just have to nerf tunneling and camping to make them not favorable strategies anymore.
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Oh, you mean these same stats:
- Executioner: 60%
- Hag: 60%
- Artist: 60%
- Xenomorph: 59%
- Blight: 59%
- Wraith: 59%
- Nemesis: 59%
- Legion: 58%
- Good Guy: 58%
- Twins: 58%
- Oni: 58%
- Cannibal: 58%
- Clown: 58%
- Deathslinger: 57%
- Trapper: 57%
- Trickster: 57%
- Demogorgon: 57%
- Singularity: 56%
- Huntress: 56%
- Ghost Face: 56%
- Nurse: 55%
- Hillbilly: 54%
- Doctor: 51%
- Overall Average: 58.50%
So when are we going to be nerfing killers like skull merchant, who is obvious the most overpowered killer that has ever existed in the history of DBD. And when are we going to buff really weak killers like the nurse to be as strong as some of the much better killers like… "checks notes" … Freddy?
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I was more so saying i agree with the op that the DC's shouldn't count toward the stats. My main problem is the stats don't actually reflect the solo q experience at ALL. You can go 4-11 with 5 dc's. You can subtract all these DC'S Matches and u may end up 4-6 (which is exactly their aim). People often quit when they losing and all these matches just getting toss out the window. My solo q experience have been endless matches of people giving up. Some say they rarely get DC's but when i play it quite common place
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I think the problem is sitting the goal only escapes matters, from the devs as a goal makes everyone play selfish and can give up at any time if everything you do matters like how the old rank system used to do it would be much better.
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If you want Solo to be more fun and/or escape more often, run selfish perks. You could try to use the pre-game lobby to coordinate if you want, I've found some success there, but generally, choose perks that increase YOUR chances of survival. That being said, you don't have to play selfish, you should still go for the save if a teammate is down/hooked and another is being chased.
If it's a 2v1 with more than 1 gen left, you just have to decide what is more important, escaping, or going next, because a 2v1 game of hide n seek can take a while.
I run Windows (because I'm trash without it) + Red Herring + Sole Survivor + Clairvoyance. Clairvoyance gives me a massive advantage in finding hatch, if killer finds it first anyway, I have Red Herring locked n loaded, and I sneak over to the door furthest from the last gen I touched, wait for the killer to get close, then slip into a locker and trigger the perk, then when he leaves, open the gate.
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Not sure what you're argument is, but …
- Prioritizing the main objective which the game was designed around is anything but mindless
- I'm well aware that there's an in-game thing called challenges. Yet challenges can and should never be a justification to deliberately throw trials and as a result make the game miserable for other players.
Nobody want's to remove the "secondary" aspects from the game, but if there's a certain group of people that doesn't understand the detriment of their actions (challenges/inexperienced/trolling) on the rest of the team, then they just belong in a different "bracket" of players and should not be let loose on the general population of players.
And this leads us back to proper MMR/SBMM
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It's an euphemism for killing themselves on hook.
As I've said earlier, killer does not have an easy button that allows them to come back from a lose. The only way for a killer to come back from a bad match is for survivors to mess up.
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Well crying about Nurse and pretending the other Killers have it bad is very dishonest considering there are winstrekas of 800 Oni wins, 300 Onryo wins, 2000 blight wins, 500 clown wins, etc.
Meanwhile the highest winstreak for Solo Q is 34 escapes in a row. Solo. And those wins happened thanks to hatch + key + old dead hard.
It's ok to admit the game is killer sided. We don't want retribution or anything like that, so nobody's gonna hurt you. normal players just want balance.
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No, no and no. It's not the many things in the game the encourage survivors to throw the game, it's not the things in the game endorse throwing from survivors and it's most definitely not games where one survivor is just messing around for fun. Killers just broken.
Imagine if everyone played mostly to win? Surely that wouldn't severely raise the win rate?
Anyway, yeah it's first of all survivors not playing to win and then killers having access to very obnoxious things. Point one means way more.
You act like suicide games are negated which they are not. You are just sluzzy level of biased.
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They did separate between all MMR and high MMR for the SWF stat and except for high MMR SWF (like I mentioned) the difference was still really small, so whats your point?
You know that the results look different for high MMR. But besides that, you think that everybody complaining about swf is high MMR?
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The not "playing well" are mostly problems in communication and strategy.
Its incredible how effective some things are against soloq, where a bit of coordination would do wonders.
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The only reason why I don't like SoloQ is because of my teammates. You can't buff people being bad at the game, or having no backbone. First down they just immediately give up. Sometimes the progression doesn't even matter, 3 other survivors splitting on gens, they still go next. I don't understand what they want. Just ban people for 24 hours if they DC or put them in a Bad Sports queue. And remove 4% and the skillcheck struggle phase. If you decide to play you have to stay.
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You guys seriously underestimate what a 3% in thousands upon thousands of matches is.
Keep in mind soloq has been hell since they upped the kill rate about a 5%.
The difference between 40 and 43% is noticeable. The difference between 40 and 48% is massive.
I honestly believe they should have trimmed the escape rate at the high end instead of overall. 45%e-55%k was a good split if they wanted to preserve the "power role" thing.
What the game needed was putting premades back in line, not pushing solo alongside them to a miserable 40% escape rate. Soloq is cannon fodder to give the illusion of balance because otherwise premades sit at 50% escape rate and we can't have that.
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Citing winstreaks like it's a reasonable thing to balance around is mind boggling.
Also, yes, I do think SoloQ needs help. But so do the low tier killers. Both can be true. Problem is SoloQ is going to always have bad players. Killer only has themselves to rely on. It's why killer's can do winstreaks but SoloQ can't. You can give SoloQ endless buffs but you'll always have bad teammates who throw, and then have survivors who can decimate the low tiers with ease with every tool they're given.
Something we tend to overlook is SoloQ has potential to be nearly as good as SWF. I've had SoloQ games that worked out flawlessly because we coordinated without needing coms because I'd get lucky enough to land 3 other useful teammates. You get one bad teammate who throws early game and boom, another point for the Nurse's winstreak.
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My point is, the SAME data, that this person is citing, also says that skull merchant is the most overpowered killer that has ever existed and that nurse needs buffs so she can be on par with some of the much stronger killers like freddy and myers.
My point is, either you believe that the data is accurate, and that what i said above is true, or you believe that the data is inaccurate. The fact that skull merchant is listed as having that high of a kill rate tells me that lots of people still immediately just give up against skull merchant, leading her to get "4k" because everyone just kills themselves on hook. If that is being included in the data, which i suspect it is, don't you think that maybe the reason that escape rates are so low, is because it is included matches where the survivors just immediately give up? Or where someone DCs? I would imagine that escape rate is highly correlated with giving up. I'd bet that the vast majority of games, where someone kills themself on a hook immediately, results in a 3 or 4k.
So because the data is showing that about SM, it is reasonable to conclude it is showing the same for escape rates. When that is in play, i'd imagine the "true" escape rate, where people actually play out the whole match, is actually much higher.
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Survivors hurt my soloQ games more than the killer. Looping around my hook, unhooking in the killer's face to trade for no reason, trying to shake the killer off on me while I'm doing generators and a million other methods of sabotaging the game for the team.
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As if what they provided as "stats" is a proof in itself. Until we get a live stats feed 24/7, there is nothing to talk about when we deal with those funny pictures with numbers the trustworthy and reputable devs provide us once in 4 years.
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I don't get why people want a fairly balanced solo experience. The great thing is that the game already has multiple game modes, with the polar opposites that are solo and 4-player SWF scenarios, and the gradient experiences inbetween (duos, double-duos, trios).
The killer player is supposed to have an edge in the scenario of an uncoordinated group without communication to create a suspenseful, stressful horror-type experience for the survivor players. A lot of things are unknown and the survivors have to figure out what things are in play, how their fellow survivors play, work around them, rely on intuition and experience. You don't expect to have a fair shot at surviving here, you embrace the chaotic and unfair nature of the game as an experience of "horror".
And then there's the scenario of a full coordinated group with communication, making it a much more strategic, competitive game, where tactics, harmonic loadouts and call-outs can be used to optimize gameplay. The appeal here is seeing how good and consistent you possibly can get, how well you can navigate situations, which builds you can make work, how good the killer players you can beat are, even going into custom matches.
Duo scenarios can generally be said to fall more so on the side of "horror" but navigating this chaotic environment with a friend, with more of an expectation that you can at least pull off some plays somewhat reliably and not find yourself in a total crapshoot of a game to try and somehow escape from, and at the very least with the possibility of making fun of all the weird and bad stuff that can happen with random players. Trios then are more on the "competitive" side, only you give yourselves a sort of handicap and liability, the appeal being the challenge of trying to play around the wildcard random player to the best of your ability, "carrying" them.
I wouldn't want them to make solo more SWF-like, it would lose major part of its appeal. The chaos is the point.
Now that of course is not to say there aren't still things they could improve on for the different scenarios, there are a plethora. There are for instance camping and tunnelling that can be too potent against solo groups while also not necessarily always creating tense and suspenseful gameplay, and more so frustration and boredom than "dread" or the excitement thereof. They can also yield some of the latter, they do have their place in the game, but I believe they should be rebalanced in certain regards and to certain extents. There are also simply unwell-designed gameplay aspects that affect solo groups disproportionally and that should be addressed, such as various endgame situations. SWF on the other hand can be a little too coordinated and make the game be a little too tilted in the survivors' favour (against quite a chunk of the killer roster anyway), and this balancing gap does warrant adjustments. My preferred remedy for this would be to restrict perks, items, add-ons and offerings in SWF groups, such that each can only be present at most once between the players of a group.
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Matches with dcs are excluded, the Devs said that multiple times.
My point was not the general escape rate but the difference between SWF and Solo. While I agree that the killrate would probabaly be lower without the matches with an insta suicide, that can't be an explanation for the relativly small difference between SWF and solo escape rates, because hook suicides happen in both modes.
Also, stats like yours that are talken from the whole population are always going to look a bit different than stats solely taken from experienced players (e.g. Nurse) but that is besides the point for this discussion.
Post edited by SunaIIanu on3 -
By the Devs own report the kill rate rose about 8%, not 5%.
There are statistical methods to judge the size of an effect, but I don't think the Devs have given enough information to calculate it. I mention that because I don't think that 3% is that much, but without an effect size estimate it's just an opinion.The Devs did not say what high MMR means but in older stats they used the top 5%, so I'm assuming that this is still the case. So yeah, 8% is a signifikant difference but how many players are going to fall in this category?
The majority of SWFs are going to fall in the 2man and 3man overall category that have no difference to solos, so if you want to nerf SWF how are you going to make sure that they aren't affected?
Communication can help, but I still think the biggest issues with solo is matchmaking and people who dc and kill themselves on hook for no reason and nerfs to SWFs aren't going to fix it.
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