These sabo toolbox buffs are kinda crazy and nobody is talking about them

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What the hell, these are some crazy sabo buffs. Sounds like a overkill for sure.

Also I am so "happy" (/s) that the best toolbox in the game gets also buffed to have extra sabo speed time. Also +100% sabo speed is crazy (from 50%) like I am sure this is fine and will not make some unfun sabotage slug situations hehe….

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  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,250
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    I've already switched to a full-slug play-style as soon as there is at least one toolbox in play.

    And I won't dare bringing a toolbox in the game either (and probably dodge if I have a teammate with a toolbox).

    Let's see how it goes.

  • zarr
    zarr Member Posts: 898
    edited June 4
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    Repair toolboxes now being a bit better at sabotaging won't make much of any difference because they are used to repair, they will only rarely have charges since they burn through them instantly on a repair. Plus even the toolbox that saw the biggest buff to its sabo speed (Commodious) is now only equal to what the Alex's Toolbox has always been, so for people actually looking to sabo, it is really only the Alex's Toolbox that has become better. It's neat that other toolboxes can now sometimes be used for an opportunistic attempt at rescuing someone in a pinch, but this will really only be a rare occurrence.

    Whether the Alex's Toolbox (plus sabo speed add-ons) is overtuned now. Well, multiple things. First of all, sabo has been an underused and undertuned mechanic in this game for years and years. Ways to proactively engage the killer make for fun and exciting gameplay, and rather than improving and introducing more of these things, they have basically only been nerfed and removed throughout the years. Especially in terms of items, with unique flashlight interactions having been removed, no new items having been introduced, nor existing ones improved. It's high time some of these tools get to be more relevant (although I honestly don't expect saboing will truly become all that relevant now either, this is BHVR's nth attempt at making that happen).

    These "proactive engagements" also always come with huge risks for the survivors, who are throwing themselves at the killer and can get injured and downed in the process and simultaneously fail to pull off the play. But even if they do succeed, not only is it not a "free" save as it is often being made out to, but even then it can be detrimental. To pull off a sabo play, if you don't perfectly predict which hook the killer will carry to and can position yourself there and sabo at the perfect time such that the killer notices too late and can't just carry to a different hook instead, you need to be around the killer as they pick up, try to stay in front of them and path to the hook as they carry there without letting them hit or overtake you, take a hit right under the hook, sabo during hit cooldown, and then get away. To begin with, the saboing survivor here is spending a lot of time not being on a gen, and I guarantee a lot of people would be surprised fierce with how much more decisively they could lose in such matches if survivors instead of trying to save others (even in cases where they succeed at it) would just let them get hooked and do gens. It very much isn't "free" even from a time efficiency perspective. But the next thing of course is that the saboing survivor loses a health state to prevent the hook. And the carried survivor may not even wiggle, but simply get dropped and become a slug that now needs to be healed up, requiring time too, and creating snowball potential. And of course, there is the item investment for the sabobox, as well as any perks a survivor may have brought to help with this, such as Breakout, all of which could have instead been put to other uses. There's also quite a few killers that can quickly down a rescued survivor again, making the time/health state/perk/item investment and risk factor be even less worthwhile. And then there's perks that can undermine or completely negate the ability of players to sabo in this way, most notably STBFL, Thanatophobia, Mad Grit, Agitation, Iron Grasp, Starstruck.

    It should also be noted that this offensive yet more consistent way of getting sabo saves doesn't work well with other toolboxes: if you use any toolbox but the Alex's, you regularly cannot get away after taking a hit and saboing during hit cooldown, and will at most trade their hook state for your own (with them, again, potentially not even wiggling free but simply getting slugged). You would need to also add sabospeed add-ons as well as Resilience and Breakout or Overcome to try and get away without going down yourself.

    I think saboing can be frustrating for killer gameplay, as picking up, carrying and hooking a survivor are part of the gameplay loop where a killer player can relax and breathe a bit, having a break from the high-focus, high-intensity aspects of the general gameplay. To have survivors be able to interfere with this gets rid of some of the downtime where you can think about the game (and the world at large) a bit, similar to survivors sitting on gens. So I do agree that things like flashlight and sabo saves should never be so overtuned that they become ubiquitous, they should be on the rarer end of things to deal with in the grand scheme of things. But I really don't think this update changes anything about that. You could just keep track and take note of how often people actually attempt (and succeed) in sabo saves against you during the next couple of weeks. I would not hesitate to wager that it will still be less than 5% of the time that you carry someone.

    Post edited by zarr on
  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,682
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    If more people engage with the Killer instead of just sticking to Gens when not being chased, this is a good thing. I still think that just doing Gens instead of doing or creating any Side Objectives when playing Survivor is the better play, but Sabotage is one form of interaction between Killer and Survivor. And it is good that the Devs try to get more people to do that.

    Sabotage is still weak, because it has to be weak. But I dont think that it is overall that negative if Survivors get to do a sabo-play here and there against a Killer. If a Killer plays against a Sabo-Team, they will most likely win anyway (even without having to slug everyone, as some people here claim).

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,263
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    Lets compare

    Sabo save requires:

    1. Carried survivor has Boilover
    2. A survivor has Sabo and/or toolbox to sabo a targeted hook, not any.
    3. Another survivor has Sano and/or toolbox to sabo another targeted hook
    4. Third survivor has Breakout
    5. Take a hit
    6. Take a second hit
    7. Hook spawn offering

    Survivors need to have at least 3 or 4 out of these 6 things to success.


    Flashlight save requires:

    1. A survivor has flashlight
    2. Background player


    The effort and requirements for a Sabo save is far greater than Flashlight save. But somehow killers see Sabo save a problem.

  • Marioneo
    Marioneo Member Posts: 746
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    Thanks to these insane sabo buffs Survs can get a free hook break and escape from getting hit before the attack cooldown is over two frees from one toolbox

  • Adaez
    Adaez Member Posts: 1,239
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    This update feels like someone played survivor and killer played really good so they decided to make changes based of off that. This game will never be balanced if instead of incentivizing survivors to get better you instead make unbalanced changes that only benefits one side and nerf the other.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,451
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    i'd rather them be on gens than getting almost a guaranteed rescue, completely denying me MY objective. only 1 sabo player is enough they don't have to be a full team.

    sabo isn't weak anymore, it had to be smart and preemptively done or it's a trade. that is not the case anymore, you can tank a hit under any hook killer decides to go esp with bgp, sabo the hook and get out safely. no hook req dh was super annoying because of sabos also, since it granted that safety 100% of the time.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,263
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    Let me build up the whole scene to make it clear.

    Carrying speed is ~3.7m/s over 16sec. The total distance killer can go for a hook is nearly 60m. Hook distance is about 25m apart. Sabo a hook right infront of killer doesnt give enough time to wiggle out.

    H is hook, there are killer, down survivor and healthy survivor ready to sabo the hook right infront of killer.

    But definitely, a hook sabo and a hit are not enough to make a Sabo save. Survivors need a third option, either Boilover or Breakout. Eventhen if killer feel there is not enough time to get a hook, they can drop and slug survivor if the carrying time is below 12sec. A third survivor has to go there and spend time to pick them up.

    Not saying Sabo save isnt annoying, but to prove Sabo save takes more than a Flashlight save.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,263
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    I pick a survivor up, walk for 3sec and see you sabo hook#1. Then I just go for hook#2. I still have 13sec left to walk to a hook. Even if you tank a hit, I still have 9sec left.

    When a sabo requires a health state, its already worse than a flashlight save.

  • solarjin1
    solarjin1 Member Posts: 1,846
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    None of them buff matter beside alex . Alex sabo being 100% with no addons is obviously a disaster waiting to happen.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,451
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    new sabo speed buffs change nothing in that scenario. here is how it can be done and be problematic:

    1- hover until survivor is picked

    2- see which hook killer is gonna go, you will always be there first with bgp

    3- tank a hit under it, you don't ever need to pre sabo and risk them go to another hook

    4- sabo the hook

    5- leave the area safely :) since killer won't be able to hit a 2nd time before you are done

    6- heal and repeat

  • Iron_Cutlass
    Iron_Cutlass Member Posts: 3,025
    edited June 4
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    And Flashlights can be avoided by staring at a wall?

    Sabotaging happens after the pickup and just requires the Survivor to be close by and the follow the Killer while they are carrying. Yes they might have to sacrifice a health state but at least it is consistent to pull off, and trading a health state to outright prevent a hook (and potential tunnel/camp) is insanely strong.

    The only counterplay is dropping the Survivor, but at the same time you still have to wait for the Sabotage action to burn through their toolbox (otherwise you literally accomplish nothing), which in some situations (and depending on the perks), can take awhile before it happens and still has the risk of the Survivor wiggling off (thanks to Breakout, which got a buff awhile back).

    The reason why people are not messing with the Sabotage changes is not because it is bad, but because we literally just got DnD in the game. DnD has a massive community and a LOT of people love it, so of course it will get the spotlight over anything else.

    Ive toyed around with the Sabo changes myself, and I think it is quite strong, though these are still just my initial thoughts on the matter.

  • Nick
    Nick Member Posts: 1,222
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  • BrightWolf
    BrightWolf Member Posts: 401
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    Yeah, it's been enough time now and at least out of the five games I played tonight, three of them had survivors with at least one-two sabbo toolboxes, which made things really unfun. I''m also feeling the hit to gen regression too, pain res feels so bad, but not as bad as pop because you can't hook a survivor fast enough to make it count anymore.

  • MrT1412
    MrT1412 Member Posts: 95
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    I had a game yesterday where people were using max charge commodious toolboxes to sabo as well as drill gens. It didn't work out for them but I really don't like that you don't have to choose between having a really strong toolbox for generators and a really strong sabo toolbox.

  • tyantlmumagjiaonuha
    tyantlmumagjiaonuha Member Posts: 521
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    Immediately after the update, I was playing PT with the trio, and in two hours, three of them saw a killer who was heartbroken and left alone. Alex Toolbox has been able to sabotage at an insane rate since PTB, but I never thought it would actually be implemented. I think they will continue to consume a lot of Alex, which they got as a byproduct of playing Prestige before the re-nerf comes.

  • JeanGreyarea
    JeanGreyarea Member Posts: 498
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    it will get nerfed

  • BbQz
    BbQz Member Posts: 83
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    Personally I think the update is a "trap" most people don't sabo since it was a terrible ROI as you would eat a hit to get it off and most times not even get the save as the killer just drops the person.. honestly removing the killers ability to drop people would do more for sabos usefulness then any of theses updates. But people running around to sabo hooks are people not working on gens. As now you have two people not working on gens for a extended time soon to be 3 when one breaks off to helped the slugged player as the saboteur is being chased…

    Like this is a buff for killers if anything as it can totally halt gen progression especially in solo Q when you get a bunch of hero types

  • BrightWolf
    BrightWolf Member Posts: 401
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    Yep, just a little bit of coordination, even from SoloQ (if the teammates aren't newbs) and bombing the hook can result in a very good play from the survivors but annoying for the killer.

    NGL, from my own experiences tonight, I can forsee slugging becoming more of an issue.

  • Yharwick
    Yharwick Member Posts: 521
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    It's not good though it takes a survivor off a gen and unless you're in the corner there's always another hook you can go for while they sabo the closest one. People are melting down over nothing.

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,671
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    Certainly a lot of mental gymnastics and goal post moving in this topic.

    Can't say I'm surprised given the topic, I suppose.

  • Unknown2765
    Unknown2765 Member Posts: 1,983
    edited June 4
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    Its not an issue.

    just before this buff patch, I did play with a friend and i did sabo both the hook the killer was going for with her, and the one he turned to when the first one got saboed, this was with out any perks like background player, just a toolbox. - So if that is a problem for you, then its on you and not the game.

    Edit - this is what i used (pre-patch) i was at full health, so no help from resilience :

    And this have been buffed now, so expect a slugfest when the killers see a toolbox.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,451
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    they do but i genuinely don't think this is one of them.

    a second hook won't be possible if they aren't super close and the sabo person has break out. the sabo player doesn't even need to trade a down for it too.

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940
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    Why poor reasons ? you don't have the stats or bhvr reasoning, if killrates are too high there are 2 options, global killer nerfs which is not fun for gameplay or gen regression nerf

  • Yharwick
    Yharwick Member Posts: 521
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    Idk I was already going against sabo squads with alex's and breakout a couple times a night anyway and never had any problems, the only difference now is hitting them isn't worth it anymore and you go straight for the next hook. I was already pairing agitation with pain res anyway (and even without pain res I felt like agitation was a bit slept on) so I don't see this change effecting me at all.

  • HexHuntressThighs
    HexHuntressThighs Member Posts: 834
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    What’s to talk about? The fact they made it to live is insane because for some reason killers didn’t care that survivors were unhookable on the PTB when toolboxes got brought.

    I loaded up some yesterday with Alex’s toolbox, cutting saw and grip wrench and stopped six hooks in a match. Saboing 2 hooks every time. Used Saboteur to see all hook locations, background player to get in front of the killer and sabo without taking a hit and the ran in front of them to the next hook and saboed that as well.

    Used breakdown to create a huge dead zone since it takes 3 minutes to come back and Built To Last to keep getting my tool box back. The only possible counter play is Agitation and even then that doesn’t stop the first sabo with BGP

    I will say I got brutally tunneled out every single time and slugged very often.

  • HexHuntressThighs
    HexHuntressThighs Member Posts: 834
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    Don’t worry I’ll tag you in a video I’m making where I denied the killer from hooking so many times they completely gave up on hooking! It was sad and I hated to do it to the poor killer but I had to demonstrate how OP it is.

    I’ll comment here and tag you when I upload it after work today!😬

  • SleepyLunatic
    SleepyLunatic Member Posts: 398
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  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 1,889
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    Everyone stacked them (as in used them both together)? That's a good reason. I would prefer they got a unique tag so that you can only benefit from one of the perks at a time, so the first of the two picked would work, and the 2nd would be a dead perk. They were fair independently, and only busted when stacked.

    Was the nerf alone bad? No. Was the methodology bad? Yes.

  • Barbarossa2020
    Barbarossa2020 Member Posts: 1,370
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    And c3tooth, seeing they think is very hard to sabo deny a killer.

  • Entinaty
    Entinaty Member Posts: 163
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    Just wondering if there was any complaints on sabotage speed before where the developers felt that this buff needed to happen over other things they could have been working on?

  • HolyDarky
    HolyDarky Member Posts: 368
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    Year, these changes and buffs made sabo really strong and powerful. Now, survivors can use toolboxes for repairing and quick sabo or to create situations where the killer cannot hook a survivor. PreUpdate 8.0.0 sabo was completly fine and good. It required skill and good gamesense from the user to get a sabo and free escape for the other survivor. Now, everyone can use sabo without any skill. In addition, survivors can make it more easier for them by using a Putrid Oak. The result will be that killers will slug more which will be awful for both sides, survivors and killers. Then survivors feel like they have to use Unbreakable which results in either you use the same perks as everyone else or you have a big problem. This won't be funny.

    I really hope the developers will undo these buffs because these buffs are way too much. It is okay if one playstyle is rather uncommon and requiers some skill because if you good at it, it gives you a good feeling. If they want that survivors use toolboxes less for repairing, they should rework the strong repairtoolboxes and Add-Ons, which are anyway too strong but this is a different story.

    In their developer update for this month the developer explained that survivors only use toolboxes for repairing and they buffed sabo so survivors would play more sabotoolboxes, even though nobody was complaing about sabo. I guess they did it without thinking too much about it. It's the same like when they buffed Billy's turnrate-window from 0.75sec to 1.0sec they did it without thinking how strong this actually is or the bugfix for Plague that she also loses her power when she gets stunds by Head On, Blast Mind, or DS. Nobody was asking for this and we were happy without knowing it was a bug for five years. Then they changed it without thinking too much about what this actually means.

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,671
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  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,682
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    I mean, I did never say it cannot happen. But I dont think it will happen frequently.

    You heard it here folks - Killers prefer genrushing Survivors.

  • ChaosWam
    ChaosWam Member Posts: 1,386
    edited June 4
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    I talked about it before, kept being told it wasn't going to be an issue.

    From my own testing, it won't work well in SoloQ with uncoordinated teams, but even 1 save can result in 1-2 gens popping before another down if survivors are doing their tasks. So as I guessed, it's a SWF buff.

    Prepare to drop your fun builds to counter it.