How would the "Gen rush" be fixed without Hex Ruin
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Answers
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I heard some people say put a bigger emphasis on skill checks, but Ruin almost makes the game balanced, I honestly don’t know how.
Maybe slow overall gen progress when a Ruin is not active, and keep it as is when a Ruin is active1 -
General disruption is something. A fast moving killer that always switches targets and can cause the survivors to always be moving as a result can slow gens. Nurse, hillbilly can manage this easily of course, but other killers can as well. Yes, even freddy. Over alturism also slows gen progression. But honestly, these aren't garunteed to work. Hex: Ruin is one of the few perks that can truly slow the game down, and I myself aim to have it on every killer just so I don't have 5 minute games.
I can think of other ways to potentially slow the game, but the biggest point I'll make it this: a slow game will always equal more points for EVERYBODY, while gen rushing gives bigger all.4 -
Gens need to get powered up before they can be repaired, but survivors can speed up the process (by holding M1). It takes 60s for a gen to power up by itself. Working on a gen speeds this up by 1 second every second.
So working on it right away, it takes 30s until you can repair a gen. But stealthing the killer during this phase would also work as a riskfree teamtactic (Deathgarden has some good early and lategame ideas). Either way, after one minute every generator has powered itself and can be repaired normally and the killer should have established some map pressure at that point.
I dont think the devs actually want to change something fundamentally like this though
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I've heard some ideas about how to fix the problem. The one I like the most is having the survivors do other objectives, like finding certain parts around the map, to fully repair generators. I like this idea more then adding gen time because doing gens is already kind of boring and adding more time to it would just sap some of the fun out of the game for survivors. And doing more objectives adds more, gameplay wise, for the survivor.
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@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I've heard some ideas about how to fix the problem. The one I like the most is having the survivors do other objectives, like finding certain parts around the map, to fully repair generators. I like this idea more then adding gen time because doing gens is already kind of boring and adding more time to it would just sap some of the fun out of the game for survivors. And doing more objectives adds more, gameplay wise, for the survivor.The problem about those ideas, additional objectives, is that they can just be rushed. And the main problem of genrush is 3 people working on gens before you hooked someone.
After someone got hooked, there shouldn't be anything to delay gens or else camping will get even more favored. If it takes 20s to find parts, you may aswell add 20s to gens. I think Ruin has an elegant impact on the game by delaying the first minute of the game which is so important for a match.
Lowranks also shouldn't be punished by this change, as they just often take their time, stealthing around playing immersed and enjoying the fear of the heartbeat. Highranks who just run straight to a gen need to be slowed down and only at the start of the game. No one wants to hold more M1 and camping shouldn't get more efficient. Its imo just the first minute that's an uncontrollable genrush. After that, the killer has control over the game.1 -
@Weederick said:
@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I've heard some ideas about how to fix the problem. The one I like the most is having the survivors do other objectives, like finding certain parts around the map, to fully repair generators. I like this idea more then adding gen time because doing gens is already kind of boring and adding more time to it would just sap some of the fun out of the game for survivors. And doing more objectives adds more, gameplay wise, for the survivor.The problem about those ideas, additional objectives, is that they can just be rushed. And the main problem of genrush is 3 people working on gens before you hooked someone.
After someone got hooked, there shouldn't be anything to delay gens or else camping will get even more favored. If it takes 20s to find parts, you may aswell add 20s to gens. I think Ruin has an elegant impact on the game by delaying the first minute of the game which is so important for a match.
Lowranks also shouldn't be punished by this change, as they just often take their time, stealthing around playing immersed and enjoying the fear of the heartbeat. Highranks who just run straight to a gen need to be slowed down and only at the start of the game. No one wants to hold more M1 and camping shouldn't get more efficient. Its imo just the first minute that's an uncontrollable genrush. After that, the killer has control over the game.I see what you mean, but I think it relies on what new objective would be implemented. The one idea I like the most would be to have parts scattered around the map at random that the survivors could find, which are necessary to fully complete a few, if not all, gens. And I think there's a difference between the time taken to find a part and the time taken to complete a gen gameplay wise. There is the whole camping issue though so an alternate idea I had that involved slowing gens down would be that whenever a survivor got hooked, their repair speed would slow down. This promotes less tunneling, as the killer would want to slow down as many survivors as possible, and camping wouldn't be made too much stronger. I agree that ruin can add that extra time, but I don't like relying on ruin to have that balance because, most of time, it spawns right in front of a survivor and it's gone in seconds. I see your point about not having too much to delay the game after a survivor gets hooked, but if ruin spawns in a good spot, it could last well after someone gets hooked and it drastically delays the game from that point forward. It's too unreliable to rest the balance of the game on, but I see where you're coming from.
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I wouldn't touch skill checks or time. Skill checks just means that better players are going to be just as effective while newer players struggle (which is already the case as is, I find). More time just makes it boring, and also makes camping more viable since the only counter-- fixing generators-- is less effective. Not to mention that it wouldn't really make ruin any less 'meta'. They can take 100 seconds and ruin would still be just as powerful and used.
First thing I would like to see is a chase rework. Right now a single chase can go on for far too long. If they could shorten chases overall (between map generation, mechanic changes like the upcoming exhaustion change), that would go a long way. Less time chasing = more time you can patrol generators.
After that, I'd be interesting to see how things play out. I would imagine that would put a lot more pressure on survivors.
Minor tweaks I feel would be the way to go about it. Things like limiting repair points on generators (limiting the sides of the generators available to repair) to force certain generators to take the full 80 seconds to complete, giving you more chances to protect it. Or slowing the default repair speed while injured, forcing people to take the time to heal up before going back to repairing generators. Maybe even removing the light posts above generators so you can't just spot one from a mile away, immediately going from one to the next with no wasted time, and instead have to actually go searching for them.
But as a whole, I don't think it needs a massive sweeping change. Generators themselves are perfectly fine, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Chase length is the real cause here. You can't just drop every chase to go guard generators. Deal with that and that's most of the problem gone right there. The rest is just because there's little to no reason to ever not be doing a generator, so giving people a reason to not be on a generator (whether it's because they're injured and need to heal, or because they need to actually find a generator) would help a little as well.
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@ShrimpTwiggs said:
@Weederick said:
@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I've heard some ideas about how to fix the problem. The one I like the most is having the survivors do other objectives, like finding certain parts around the map, to fully repair generators. I like this idea more then adding gen time because doing gens is already kind of boring and adding more time to it would just sap some of the fun out of the game for survivors. And doing more objectives adds more, gameplay wise, for the survivor.The problem about those ideas, additional objectives, is that they can just be rushed. And the main problem of genrush is 3 people working on gens before you hooked someone.
After someone got hooked, there shouldn't be anything to delay gens or else camping will get even more favored. If it takes 20s to find parts, you may aswell add 20s to gens. I think Ruin has an elegant impact on the game by delaying the first minute of the game which is so important for a match.
Lowranks also shouldn't be punished by this change, as they just often take their time, stealthing around playing immersed and enjoying the fear of the heartbeat. Highranks who just run straight to a gen need to be slowed down and only at the start of the game. No one wants to hold more M1 and camping shouldn't get more efficient. Its imo just the first minute that's an uncontrollable genrush. After that, the killer has control over the game.I see what you mean, but I think it relies on what new objective would be implemented. The one idea I like the most would be to have parts scattered around the map at random that the survivors could find, which are necessary to fully complete a few, if not all, gens. And I think there's a difference between the time taken to find a part and the time taken to complete a gen gameplay wise. There is the whole camping issue though so an alternate idea I had that involved slowing gens down would be that whenever a survivor got hooked, their repair speed would slow down. This promotes less tunneling, as the killer would want to slow down as many survivors as possible, and camping wouldn't be made too much stronger. I agree that ruin can add that extra time, but I don't like relying on ruin to have that balance because, most of time, it spawns right in front of a survivor and it's gone in seconds. I see your point about not having too much to delay the game after a survivor gets hooked, but if ruin spawns in a good spot, it could last well after someone gets hooked and it drastically delays the game from that point forward. It's too unreliable to rest the balance of the game on, but I see where you're coming from.
Good points. It would be more enjoyable to find parts than holding M1 atleast. The repairdebuff would promote less tunneling, but sadly wouldn't solve genrush. In those games, you get 1-2 hooks before the gens are done. You can't rely on hooking people to get benefits, its too late at that point, like dying light.
I also dont like Ruin, in fact i dont even use it on anyone but hag, trapper and pig anymore because they need setup time/have a stallbased themebuild. It too unreliable and can be useless or win games alone. But the impact it has, forcing people to run around at the start, should be encouraged somehow in the basegame.1 -
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Add in new objectives is the best answer to it imo. Longer gen times won't mean much. There could be "stop" points on the generators as well. You repair it to X percent, then you need to find a part or gas or whatever to continue repairing it. Maybe you need to flip a circuit breaker so there's no issue with items. At that stop point though, it can't be regressed beyond that.
Could also do something along the lines of:
There's multiple circuit breakers on the map. Each one is connected to a random number of generators. You have to repair the generator first, then throw the switch. Every generator connected to that switch though has to be fully repaired before throwing it. Generators that are fully repaired cannot be regressed. Could even adjust it for ranked play by having more switches on the map for higher ranks. Maybe do 2 for low, 3/4 for middle, and 5 for high.
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I think there are a lot of ways to slow down the game. You can have more Bloodpoints when working on gen with more people but there shouldn't be any kind of speed bonus. Or there could be some kind of "safe points" on every generator - meaning if you don't repair enough of the gen, it will regress to the last safe point you achieved. Or there can be just 2 gens on the map activated at the same time. Or another objective, or million more things.. this is the biggest problem of this game and nothing has really changed for a long time.. I don't think devs will ever resolve that issue..they don't even talk about it anymore..They're making just little steps which don't actually help and it takes such a long time to implement that..I've lost a hope..
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@Mringasa said:
Maybe you need to flip a circuit breaker so there's no issue with items. At that stop point though, it can't be regressed beyond that.That's not a bad idea! Breakers that are located nearby, so you don't irritate the Survivors too much, but it's close enough where you can zip over and flip it, or have someone else (not doing gens) waiting to go. This way you know it's close by, but you don't have to scour the map for parts and worry about finding them/going too far from your gen.
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We either need an additional objective or we need survivors to not be nearly invincible gods in a chase capable of looping the killer around while 3 people work on generators. The killer role is reactionary and once the survivor reaches a certain level of skill it becomes impossible to catch them before every generator gets done. Killers are limited by the mechanics of the game while survivors are practically unlimited. The best way to fix this is to change the level design and make more loops, pallets and windows mindgameable so that skilled survivors can buy time but will eventually make mistakes and get downed by skillful killers. The reason you only see a handful of killers at high rank is that those killers are the only ones who have the potential to catch people in good time, and that's because they have the potential to contest these loops. Every other killer is a cripple.
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I hope no one forgot high rank players can blow through ruin no problem.1
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Maybe make Ruin a build-in perk? So you can use 4 different perks but Ruin is just always there for every killer?
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@Peanits has analysed it correctly. Give the Killer a significant buff for chases in the beginning of the game, where all the nice and juicy pallets are still availible.
Some token system could work:
- Killer starts with a number of tokens (for example, 8).
- For each token, the Killer gets a 3% speed increase to pallet breaking, vaults, bloodlust activation.
- If the Killer has all tokens remaining: Remove red light when bloodlust activates, Slightly/Moderately (debatable) decrease time for Killer's ability (yeah that messes with Nurse, but that is not a bad thing, and good Nurses can adapt).
- first time any survivor is downed, lose 4 tokens
- any other survivor downed -> lose 2 tokens
- if a survivor gets hooked for the first time, gain a token (discourages slugging and tunneling)
- one survivor dead -> lose all tokens for the rest of the game
That means:
In the first chase: 24% faster pallet breaking, vaulting, bloodlust activation speed. No red light so more mindgames possible, which makes the Killer stronger. (3% per token for vaulting might be too much, since this would probably stack with Bamboozle & EW3 Michael)
If the Killer doesn't tunnel, he can hook all 4 survivors once (8-3-1-1-1=2) and still have 2 tokens.
If the Killer tunnels the first guy, he has only 3 tokens left with just 2 hooks. If he further tunnels him, all buffs are gone.
The survivor has to aim for losing the Killer instead of wasting time!
BUT: If Killer gets buffed for early game, please nerf Ruin. And consider buffing Survivors when there are only 2 or less remaining.TL;DR: Killer can be gen rushed because he is weak in the first chase. Buff him in early game. Debuffs when he gets hooks/kills. In return, nerf Ruin and make the last remaining 1 or 2 survivors stronger.
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