So now that every viable regression/slowdown perk has been nerfed for Killers...

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Zaydin
Zaydin Member Posts: 275
edited June 5 in General Discussions

…when are survivors going to see their ability to rush generators nerfed in turn? Because all BHVR is doing is encouraging Killers to tunnel to ease the pressure on them with all the regression/slowdown nerfs.

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  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266
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    Great news is, the toolboxes now are used for Sabo, not on Gens

  • Neaxolotl
    Neaxolotl Member Posts: 1,110
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  • solarjin1
    solarjin1 Member Posts: 1,858
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    im assuming u mainly talking about toolboxes. what would change? nerf the charge addons maybe

  • Zaydin
    Zaydin Member Posts: 275
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    Because tunneling is the most effective method survivors have of increasing the pressure on the remaining survivors and lessening the pressure on themselves. Turning the match into 1v3 ASAP is important for any Killer.

  • Chocolate_Cosmos
    Chocolate_Cosmos Member Posts: 5,512
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    Meta for killers Will be the same anyway, just nerfed. Same perka remain, maybe pop Will fade Away tho.

  • Shaddoll_Serpent
    Shaddoll_Serpent Member Posts: 153
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    Not like any of the slowdowns nerfed are dead anyway. You'll be fine.

  • Zaydin
    Zaydin Member Posts: 275
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    Their effectiveness is incredibly reduced. PainRes can only be used four times a match, is dependent on Scourge Hook spawn RNG and still had its regression nerfed from 25% to 20% for no reason. Pop, which requires you to get a down and hook a survivor and then find a generator worth kicking before the time limit runs out and was long ago nerfed to only regress based on current progress rather than totall was gutted and went from 30% to 20%.

    Grim Embrace, which can only trigger four times per match, had the first three generator blocks reduced to ten seconds each because apparently 12 seconds was just too long for 36 total seconds of blocked generators.

  • Slowpeach
    Slowpeach Member Posts: 691
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    It's more there's a lack of alternatives. The nerfed perks are still the best choices but honestly this game on the most part has been balanced towards the side that wants to win more. There's so many ways to tilt the odds in your favor at the cost of variety between killers that are much stronger then the rest, map offerings and loads of other toys.

    I do dislike the term 'gen rush' though because what else are the survivors supposed to do if they aren't getting chased? Are people really that conditioned by some players they get matched up against doing their throw the game tomes? The tomes that try to make the game seem like it has more depth then it actually does? It's gens, chases and hooks. Very little else most of the time. This is why slow down is so dominant. Because chase perks in general don't shorten chases enough to outperform slowdown perks. For example can you imagine if Bamboozle was 100% vault speed or something? Chases simply wouldn't feel rewarding for either side. That's a simple example but you could extend that to similar perks.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,353
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    because big majority of the killer perks have no effectiveness. gen speed is still ultra oppressive.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,642
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    How would you nerf it?

    Make it longer? Make survivors have to do gens together? Add more gens?

    It's genuinely a hard problem to fix because it involves changing the objective of one role.

    You can't just nerf toolboxes and Gen perks and expect gens to not fly. Gens go fast if survivors spread and do gens separately.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,642
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    I do think that a lot of killer perks can offer a ton of value. At least in public lobbies, where a majority of survivor teams are not as coordinated.

    Many people just stick to what they deem to be the only solution and become blind to other options.

    I just tried this build and has a ton of success:

    -bloodwarden

    -Alien instinct

    -Franklin's demise

    -weaving attunement

    Really good info in item heavy lobbies and very good on killers with movement abilities like Singularity and Vecna.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,459
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    Literally just make all the toolboxes 16 charges. The only problem with toolbox repairing is when 32 charge toolboxes get stacked with repair addons and perks.

  • TerraEsram
    TerraEsram Member Posts: 632
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    Even if it's not gonna stop tunneling but…
    What if survivor need to search for something before doing a gen? Like Oil, gasoline, …

  • TerraEsram
    TerraEsram Member Posts: 632
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    These people, who hard tunnel a survivor at the beginning and just play "effectively" to just win, gonna never change
    They don't seems to understand that, the game is only finish when everyone is out, dead or escaped

    For me, the main game only begin when you have two gen left, it's there where you got a lot of hook, without tunneling or camping

  • KatsuhxP
    KatsuhxP Member Posts: 439
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    Well I played a lot of Vecna since he's out and other than games where 2-3 people have 5-10k hours I don't really feel pressured at all. The only slowdown I have is corrupt because of his start-up time.

    well that being said I'm not playing without tunneling but mostly just because I choose the best target if I have to choose between one dead and one on first hook. I won't search for the death-hook specific xD

  • SleepyLunatic
    SleepyLunatic Member Posts: 398
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    Lets try to not make it even more us vs them.
    This is something that goes both ways.

    Imo they should still be looking for a way to reward the player for not tunneling etc.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,332
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    People tend to link regression nerfs and potential slowdown nerfs together, which I think isn't appropriate. I don't think those two problems are even really that equivalent, let alone actually linked in that direct a way.

    For the sake of transparency, I define genrushing as this: Survivors who bring in the strongest tools for making generators go as quickly as possible, at the cost of not having tools for most other elements of the game. Genrushing is not survivors that just do generators efficiently when they're not in chase at either default speed or default plus one perk speed. That's just playing the game normally.

    With that in mind, it's not as though genrushing actually happens that often. Don't get me wrong, it's a problem when it does happen and even separately from genrushing toolboxes are too strong, but we can immediately see that something which affects a majority of games in a very obvious way - stacking regression perks - is a higher priority and doesn't need to be fixed at the exact same time as a problem you rarely see.

    At the same time, and as a consequence of that, it's also pretty clear what the answer to the title question is. What will killers do now that slowdown perks are nerfed? They'll just… keep playing like normal. Most games are games where good play alone is enough slowdown, so even if we were to assume there are no viable slowdown perks left, there wouldn't really be a huge problem here.

    Which is where it becomes relevant that there are still viable slowdown perks. There aren't even that many unviable slowdown perks, even something like Ruin has its place in certain builds.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266
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    Honestly I prefer them to get rid of tunneling rather than slowdown.

  • RhodosGuard
    RhodosGuard Member Posts: 58
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    Regression Perks were a reaction to escalating Repair Times.
    And instead of adjusting how different factors impact repair times BHVR, as usual, sided with Survivors and decided to nerf Regression.

    And now people are surprised that killers still run regression Perks. Of course they do. They didnt use them because it grinded repairs to a halt, they used them because it was necessary slowdown to a game where within 1 minute of starting the game you could get multiple gen pops.
    You didnt give them a reason to not use regression perks, you just reinforced the fact that they need them.

  • SleepyLunatic
    SleepyLunatic Member Posts: 398
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    And that was?

    So basically you saying all killers bad, survivors good?

  • Gmoore23
    Gmoore23 Member Posts: 153
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    Literally it isn't that deep. The perks are still decent, they just aren't as oppressive. Plus, this is a good way to try out builds that don't center on damaging gens.

  • RhodosGuard
    RhodosGuard Member Posts: 58
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    How is that relevant to my post?
    I said nothing about tunneling.
    And even if I said something about Tunneling.
    Yes, some Killers tunneled even with better slowdown perks, but it's delusional to pretend nerfing those slowdown perks did not increase tunnelling as a reaction.

    It's simply a chain of reactions
    Gens started to pop too fast → Slowdown became meta → Slowdown was nerfed → Slowdown loss is compensated with tunneling
    And that is because instead of looking at why solo survs were popping Gens in the first minute of a game, BHVR saw Slowdown as a problem.
    Tunneling wasn't part of this conversation, until Slowdown was nerfed because now Killers feel like they need a new tool.
    That some Killers were intentionally tunneling even before isn't part of the equation because tunnelling came into this discussion as a consequence to a nerf that was based on a reaction to a shift in gameplay.

    The more legitimate ways to achieve your goals you nerf or remove, the more people will instead rush to the low hanging fruit.
    Sure, giving Killer alternatives or Rewards for different playstyles is not going to eliminate tunnelling forever, but it is miles better than just nerfing everything and then have surprise Pikachu Face when Tunneling, Camping and slugging become the main ways killers win again.

    So what is your point here? "Wha wha, tunneling is a thing?`"
    Yeah, and it will keep being a thing. At least as long as people use their endurance to tank hits for their unhooker instead of using it as actual protection against tunneling.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,545
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    The only thing that can happen with Tunneling is to limit it

    But then all of the slowdown has been nerfed cause Survivors don't want to do 7 Gens just to finish 5

    Let's add another Hook state and see where that puts us

  • HexHuntressThighs
    HexHuntressThighs Member Posts: 857
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    Essentially just made it go from 3 slowdowns with 1 unique perk to a guaranteed 4 slowdowns. No surprise there.

  • nodforkiss
    nodforkiss Member Posts: 141
    edited June 5
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    just shows how survivor sided devs are. nobody good at the game complained about gen regression. when i play survivor or killer 1-2 gen pops before killer can even get a down/hook. then people are crying "why killers tunnel" my brother in christ what is killer supposed to with 2 gen done and 3 one is almost done and she got one single hook and few pallets. since devs dont want us to spread hooks, why do we play fair? i tunnel and slug dont care about anything at this point this nerfs just made the killers more angry and pissed off. cant wait all the tears from survivor mains when anniversary starts lol.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266
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    Devs balanced by the number 60. The harder you try, the higher kill rate, the more nerf to killers. Keep it coming!

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,275
    edited June 5
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    I always try to avoid tunneling but I don't mind to do it consistently and on purpose

    Although, since I'm now slugging everyone, tunneling isn't exactly on the table.

    My last few matches haven ended with one or two survivors bleeding-out and the others dying on their first hook.

    Its' all fine.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,395
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    More like there is no alternative. Gen regression is a necessary evil and nerfing these perks without providing alternatives isn't going to change that. I also predicted that some killer players will double down on slowdown after the nerfs and stack even more of it. We'll see how it goes but I don't expect the pick rates to drop significantly.

  • RhodosGuard
    RhodosGuard Member Posts: 58
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    Why are you talking in circles?
    Of course you'd rather have weak regression perks stacked than stronger ones, but if your nerf did nothing to the pick rate of these perks, or maybe even increased the pickrate, then maybe that points to a deeper problem, no?
    Like maybe that the base problem as to why people played these perks wasnt solved?
    I always thought the idea of nerfs was that less people used these perks unless there was something specific they wanna do with it, but if your nerf increases the pickrate, then it means that you misunderstood the quintessential reason people played them.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,395
    edited June 5
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    That's true but those that used 1-2 regression perks might double down and use 3 or more now. That's what happens each and every time you nerf a meta without providing any alternative. Playing killer without slowdown doesn't really work and now that Pop and Pain Res were nerfed heavily it should come to no surprise when people will use even more slowdown than before to make up for that.

    Given that the reason why these perks were nerfed was a high pick rate, I'd say they failed spectacularly.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,727
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    Well, that's different.

    If you can only have two regression perks, just for example, then you don't even need alternatives. People will just run different stuff because they can't run more regression since they're hard-locked out of it.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,395
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    I don't think hard-locking people out of perks is the right way to go. It should be more like No Mither + Self Care. Yes, you can run both but why would you? It makes no sense. Anyway, BHVR wanted to shake up the meta by nerfing the most popular killer perks and they failed. There are multiple ways to achieve it but if we want to change the meta, then we'll need an alternative.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,727
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    I mean, that's an effective hard-lock isn't it?

    You can't use either of them together.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,003
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    I would have thought Chaos Shuffle would have revealed this to most people but apparently not.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,003
    edited June 5
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    Yes, but it's an emergent limitation from the design of the perk, rather than an arbitrary general restriction as to which perks you can use.

    It's absolutely the better way to go, but requires thoughtful perk design.

    One way they could go about it in a more general sense could be rules like:

    Only one gen block can take effect at a given time. E.g. Grim Embrace takes effect, this then prohibits Dead Mans Switch from activating on that gen. This restricts how gen blocking perks interact, making them somewhat incompatible, and running them together produces depreciating returns.

    The 8 regression event limitation already does this somewhat for the instant regresion perks like Pop and Pain Res. I don't think much more is needed in that regard.

    Similar rules for regression speed bonuses, and repair slowdown nerfs could be implemented (not sure the fairest way to do this myself). Then it becomes prohibitive to run multiple slowdown perks of the same 'class'. You can still do so, but you won't get full value out of them.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,332
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    Not that I disagree with you about killer perks being good overall, but there are killer perks that are detrimental to you. The biggest example is Predator, which actively makes tracking over any real distance much harder.

    There also aren't that many actively detrimental survivor perks. Maybe No Mither if you don't have some kind of plan or build for it? Fact is, either way on that specific example, most survivor perks are perfectly usable. The same notion of the top few perks skewing everyone's perception of useful applies there too.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,171
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    Right, but if you keep taking away people's ability to place nice by punishing them when they do so, you only have yourself to blame when nobody wants to play nice anymore.