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Will the devs ever do anything about removing self from game on first hook?
Comments
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So basically they can remove hook suicide and force people to DC and take penalty instead, great
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But they wont though, they will just AFK and tab out instead to avoid it. An inconvenience sure but I can tell you, I don't think people really care if they want out that bad
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That's literally bannable and pretty obvious unlike self unhooking, definitely much better
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If they don't do that they will just run to the killer… again, you cant make other people actively participate in anything they want out of. But hey whatever, everyone is welcome to pursue futility and expect it to have results… but it wont.
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So in essence your proposition reduces the total hook time until death for the second hook without touching the first hook timer.
(?)
If I understand correctly:
- players trying to exit will still have to wait for a while (good)
- players will not have free unhook tries (good)
It seems like an improvement.
If not done already, you should make this a proposition in a separate post.
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You can't force people to try but you can encourage them.
When I play killer and a survivor tries to die, I slug instead of hooking, and I keep slugging and slugging.
There are 3 outcomes:
- Usually, the survivor grows a spine and starts doing gens and tries to escape.
- Sometimes, the survivor keeps being a poor sport.
- Rarely, the survivor rage-quits.
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Self-unhooking should only be permitted with specific perks that provide this ability. Otherwise, survivors must wait for their teammates to come to their rescue.
Although self-unhooking provides a rare opportunity for escape, removing this option would not significantly alter the core gameplay. However, it would greatly enhance the overall match experience by reducing early rage quits. Often, players who quit early do so out of frustration but would likely continue playing if they were quickly rescued by nearby teammates.
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The DC penalties literally help reduce ragequitting, even though “you can’t force people to play the game”.
And if DC penalties help reduce ragequitting, then there are other things that can help reduce ragequitting.
Therefore, BHVR should try things like changing the hook rules, to remove not-guaranteed self unhooks, and remove skill checks from hooks.
And the rules can be adjusted. For example, maybe it is ok for 2nd stage hooks to have skill checks if only 2 survivors are left. And it’s certainly ok for guaranteed self unhooks to happen, like from the deliverance perk and the anti-face camp mechanic.
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No, DC penalties do not force people to play the game, they just make them find other ways to not participate in the match so they can avoid DC penalties.
You can change all the rules and hook mechanics you want, you STILL will not be able to make someone want to actively participate in a match they don't want to be in.
I am not advocating for them either, I just do not see how you cant see it is an exercise in extreme futility regardless of what mechanics you change?!
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No idea who started this "You can't force people to play the game" trend but if they feel forced to play, they shouldn't even be queuing in the first place.
Why should one person's feelings be prioritized and coddled while the remaining players are left to pick up the pieces?7 -
Sure, they should not queue yet they do.
So you cant say all you want about how they should not be coddled and shake your fist angrily at the sky… and they still wont want to play some matches. It isn't a trend, it is just reality not advocacy of this.
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Luckily not actively participating in the game they readied up is literally bannable offense, what a great world we live in
The objective is to kick out those people from queing up for the game where any other people want to play, not to stop them from doing bannable offense
Anti-cheat isn't there to stop people from cheating, but rather to remove all those bad players, same principle can be applied here
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I don’t think I’ve ever said anything about forcing people to play the game. I don’t know why you keep repeatedly mentioning this.
What I am saying is that it is currently way too quick and convenient to ragequit and bypass DC penalties, by purposely attempting self unhooks, then purposely failing the hook skill checks.
What I am saying is if those things are removed from hooks, it would be much more inconvenient to ragequit in ways that bypass the DC penalty, which would encourage some of the ragequitters to play the game instead.
And again, I never claimed this will 100% work for every ragequitter that has ever existed. No one is claiming that. It’s not a thing.
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Sure… but as Peanits himself said, they will just throw themselves at the killer anyway and you are back at the same issue.
Again, this will not work and it isn't like anti cheating because with cheating you have an obvious infraction. If someone say throws themselves at a killer, how do you then prove they were intending to throw rather than just being incredibly bad at the game? At that point you enter into the realm of clairvoyance…
Again, you cant make people play matches they don't want to and unfortunately BHVR cant fix this other than removing common reasons people want to go next (killers like SM) or providing incentives to actually play matches out.
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Idk maybe make soloq less like a house of cards??
Post edited by Paternalpark on2 -
Sure… you can do that. But people STILL will not want to play the match. You don't have to say it, this is simply the way it is. It may make it more inconvenient but the end result will be the same.
" I never claimed this will 100% work for every ragequitter that has ever existed" - it wont work for anyone who truly wants out of the match. Why do you people not understand this lol?!
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The result won’t be the same for everyone. There are people that ragequit specifically because there is a quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties.
And if we take away that quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalty, then it would reduce the amount of people that are ragequitting in ways that bypass the DC penalty.
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Tbh.
I would love to see a PTB where 4% is removed. - And I imagine a first dive into the data from that would be fairly easy:
The escape rate rises. —> Removing 4% on live is the way to go.
Nothing except for the number of hook stages changes (same escape rate, more or less same gen progress, more or less same match duration) —> Pretty likely that those noping out of the match on first hook saw that coming and decided to fast forward.
The escape rate stays the same but matches last longer / more gens get completed —> Pretty much the same as above, except even more of an indicator that there's a point where survs can pretty much predict how the game's gonna end, regardless of them sticking around or not.
The escape rate falls —> idk how that would be possible in normal matches but I suppose it would show that a significant amount of killers goes easy on survs if one DCs.
The forums always make it seem like it's all petty little survs that 4% on first hook for the tiniest inconvenience. Those are there… but I really doubt they make up a significant chunk of the ones 4%ing. Finding the actual issue for the vast majority of 4%-ing/DCing would be the important thing and if that little experiment takes us a step closer to that: good.
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I don't really believe this, if people really want to rage quit they will and they still do as people DC every day I play DBD, the DC penalty doesn't deter them.
If someone really wants out a slight delay in getting out of a match is no deterrent as they want out so they will do anything they need to do to go next.
While I do think DC penalties should stay, as I do agree that when that is too easy they get out of control (as we have seen when DC penalties have been disabled) but I would prefer to address the reasons why people want out of matches as punishments don't seem to work.
Even then, there will always be matches where someone wants out for some inexplicable reason and unfortunately I don't think we can ever do anything about that.
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The problem is simple: the game is too unbalanced and it's too much decided in the first minute. While killers have the luxury of coming back from bad starts, survivors don't. If a Blight has downed several before a single Gen is completed, survivors can't win.
The killrates are too high. Survivors often go matches after match facing the same inevitable loss. In essence: there is not much skill expression for survivors to control the outcome. So the whole problem is the game feels unwinnable because it often is.
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By the amount of those happening, and how well they do with other matches
It's not that difficult really, if those kind of people "plays pretty badly" literally every game, let them at that point, I doubt they are having fun anyway
And ultimately killers can deny any attempt like that, too
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For players who leave the game in anger or who ruin the game experience for their matches by leaving the game early, BhVR will update the specs to automatically complete the gen and win for the Survivor team. Implemented in patch notes.
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Not the same thing, at all. A mechanic that stops killers from playing in a way that forces someone to be unable to participate in normal gameplay is not the same as forcing someone to stay in a match they don't want to be in.
A survivor who's forced to stay in a match they don't want to be in will either afk, or they'll just sabotage the rest of the team.
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i have another, way much simpler idea. Just get rid of the DC penalty at all. I rather have bots as teammates that people who dont want to play this game but they still que up for some reason. By removing DC penalty, the people that cant be forced to play will at least leave a bot behind which is way more usefull than any punishement system ever.
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DC penalties don’t force players to stay in a game. My suggestions for removing non-guaranteed self unhooks, and removing 2nd stage hook skill checks, also don’t force players to stay in a game. Never have I ever said people should be forced to stay in a game.
And if players go AFK or sabotage their team, that is reportable. We shouldn’t avoid making game improvements, because rule breakers might break rules.
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It's the same thing, a mechanic that stops killers from making a survivor unable to participate (which is objectively wrong as you are still participating in the game with camping/tunneling) in the game, and a mechanic that stops survivors from making literally everyone else unable to participate in the game
"otherwise they'll act against the rule" is never a good reason because those kind of act is bannable regardless of reasons
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problem is majority of people find the certain killers unfun the moment they get sacrificed by them. or even downed. I can play litteraly every killer its always at least 1 person that rage quits on hook..
Its not niche scenario or "certain killers" its people not accepting losses.1 -
Removing the DC penalty creates more issues than it solves.
I feel like people who advocate for removing the DC penalty are completely forgetting the human factor, or maybe aren't familiar with how the DbD community would use a penalty free system. (We've had periods of no disconnect penalty due to bugs in the past, and it's not been pretty)
You'd never finish a full game again, ever. The first time survivors are downed? Disconnect. If the survivor manage to get the gates powered? Killer leaves. The usable data for determining kill rates basically disappears, since they (rightfully) ignore games with a DC in those stats.
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No, players will still have the free unhook tries, and it would be actual free since it doesnt hurt the hook timer at all
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No, "kobe" need to stay even if the survivor is not running any perk related to it
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Back then, yes it made sense to have a penalty. But now we have bots. That is the point i want normal games not have my experience ruined by people that dont want to play. As a survivor, bot teammates are far more useful than people that give up and as a killer i can actually chase people without them just running up to me. I rather play with and against bots instead of hookiciders.
Also the Data about killrates isnt telling anything anyway, Skull merchant has highest killrates because anybody just gives up against her, doctor has alot of AFK botters not getting any kills, hence why he sits at the bottom of the list. Thats not an argument for DC penalty at all.
I can see the issiue with the killer side, as there are no bot killers. Then simply keep the penalty for the killers and remove it for survivors, as those are the ones that ragequit most of the time anyway.
I dont agree with ragequitting, wanna be very clear about that. But trying to understand people that que up into a match only to ragequit… yeah i gave up on that. I dont care, i just want normal games. So either remove the penalty so we get at least bots or remove 4%. And then what? People run up towards you, how we gonna solve that? Thats why im advocating for 0 penalty, now that we have bots. When previously i thought the penalty should be much higher but again people are circumventing it, if there would be nothing they needed to circumvent, then they could just let a bot be there. Much better for people that want normal games where they can do their tomes.2 -
This is a nice response, thank you.
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Why do you say "You can't" when they, in fact, can do that? They did it bro. I think there is a difference there, between what somehow is an strategy, and on the other hand willingness to play. Not the same thing.
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They DO make up a significant chunk. Every second or third game i play no matter which side has someone throwing. And by throwing i mean not playing bad, i mean running towards the killer, keep repairing even though the killer is right next to them, hookiciding the moment they get hooked and so on.
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You said the timer for the second hook would be hit instead, unless I misunderstand.
What I mean by "free" is as in "no penalty at all for trying", which would be bad.
That's why the way I've understood your solution, it felt like a good idea to be both a hindrance for leavers without being too much of a buff.
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Honestly some form of complicated honor system could be aswell, would involve hella lot of work though.
But basicly have the system detect when people are trying to 4% seconds after being hooked, while mates are still living, have a breaking point where 4% is considered a viable tactic (which is when you are only 2 people most of the time, sure there is other niche scenarios but most hookiciders do it right at the start of the trial anyway.) Maybe make it with gens. 2 or 3 gens left 4% is aviable, not before. While deliverance still grants the 100% unhook chance right away. There would be taken much in consideration but with such a "honor" system these people would be filtered out and would then que up only with likeminded players.
Obviously disable this feature in low mmr.0 -
keeping the DC penalty for the killers would be unfair I mean it already unfair with hookiciders but be more unfair,like killer dc and wants out but survivor get to keep they BP and killer get a penalty? no thanks
I with you on the bot thing but get rid of the DC penalty for both or don't bother.
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They need to deal with the fact most games are done in the first sixty seconds of a match. Killers snowball super easy and a lot of them just aren't that fun to play against.
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The why is obvious, its all over this thread. An early failed kobe totally ruins the game for all involved parties. If the first survivor chased rage quits via the kobe mechanism the game is basically finished.
We don't even have to get rid of late game kobes, that's not what people are complaining about.
I already brought a solution a few posts backSomeone else is already engaged with you on this, but your solution doesn't make sense. Not saying it wouldn't work, I'm saying the way you've explained it doesn't actually explain what happens.
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Would you enjoy almost escaping and then the match is just over before you reached the door? because the killer just pushed the leave button?
Like the nickname though 😸1 -
first 60 seconds? are you in low mmr? Thats not my experience at all, at 60 seconds the game could swing into pretty much every direction most of the time.
It is due to 4% giving up ofc, that games tend to get very easy for killers, as you are 3 people taking the game seriously and then 1 person throwing because they got hooked first.0 -
" I never claimed this will 100% work for every ragequitter that has ever existed" - it wont work for anyone who truly wants out of the match. Why do you people not understand this lol?!Why don't people understand that to improve something doesn't require it to become perfect?
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really I be fine with it survivors get to keep they BP it pretty much escape for them most time I feel bad for the killer when he DC because I been there as killer it hard.
also thanks.
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Yeah but you wont ever complete a "escape as x survivor" or "escape x amount of trials" tome challenge ever again when killers can just give up.
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right but I feel killers don't give up as much survivors do there just games as killer you want out fast but not all the time even if they get 1k or 4man out.
what I'm saying is there a bigger chance for the killer sticking it out more then survivors on a losing game.
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Oh i totally agree with that, i have experienced more survivors rage quitting than killers. It is extremely rare for a killer to rage quit when i play survivor.
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Well, I don't have their POV but most of the time I see why they 4%ed a few minutes later. - Be that a killer with ping/lag getting the most ridiculous hits, them going for a drawn out three gen, doing a very "funny" build/strategy or them seeing on hook that teamy X is crouching behind a rock for no reason.
But like I said; give it a PTB/live test and we'll see what happens. Imo the best option to test the waters and see if "doing something about 4%ing" actually achieves anything.
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One of the big reasons why killers don’t give up as much as survivors, is because killers don’t have a quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses DC penalties.
If killers were able to open exit gates whenever they wanted to, which would allow them to quickly get out of a game without a DC penalty, then you would see way more killers ragequitting.
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The classic, "My experience is different, you must be trash so your opinion doesn't matter."
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Low mmr doesnt have anything to do with being "trash". Idk where you got that from. I was asking a simple question.
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