How to limit swf?
As the latest statistic shows, swf players do have a huge advantage over solo q players. These advantages come from matching builds and roles, voicecall, callouts and coordination.
Aside from comp players there is little that the average killer can do to stop these teams effectivly and the matches become stressfull and annoying very quick.
So when looking at the numbers the game needs a mechanic to even out the field.
The game knows when you play with others so it could apply more generator time per swf player. Another possibility would be to limit how many times certain perks can be used among the swf players (this forces the survivor to use other builds and avoids 4x adren etc).
Limiting the amount of items/add ons could also be a possibility as it really is game breaking to have multiple green toolboxes with brand new parts in a swf squad.
This would not only make the game more fair for everyone but also (and this is my favourite part about this idea) completly remove bully squads from the game.
It simply wouldn't be possible anymore to orchestrate with background player, ds, unbreakable and head on + 4 flash lights and map offering to purposly be toxic towards killers.
One last approach could be to simply tell the killers if he goes up against swf so he can mentally switch into comp mode or just dodge the lobby.
My final thoughts are that it shouldn't be possible to bring map offerings if you play with more then 1 friend. Reducing toxicity and making the game fair again is what it needs in my opinion as it feels quite inbalanced lately.
Comments
-
The devs are never going to punish people for playing with their friends, or implement changes who's only function would be to promote lobby dodging. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want on claiming it's for balance... but its not happening.
60 -
Uh, we don't do anything because there isn't an issue?
Even High MMR 4-man SWF's escape less than 50% of the time. Solo Q High MMR is sitting around 43%, which means that there's a 5% difference between the two of them.
In every other bracket, SWF offers no significant advantage.
Therefore, I would say we should not punish people for playing with their friends. We get it, some people can't accept a loss and they have to blame it on something other than the fact that it was their own fault, but jeez.
48 -
From the numbers I saw from bhvr themself it was almost 10 %. So I'd say it is an issue because the aim is 60/40 and that is not matched in swf statistics.
Saying that swf does not offer advantages is a pretty bold statement considering the amount of information that is shared via voicecall. Swf and toxicity in dbd are problems and pretending they are not while numbers tell you different is kinda a confusing hill to stand on.
I was prepared to be attacked by people not ready for an open discussion though.4 -
While i too think they should do nothing against swf i cant believe the numbers for one reason. Bhvr has no way to factor in the tons of games where the players goof off and basicly throw because they are in an swf. There is footage for weeks to watch of funny compilation that show how they block each other and stuff like that
1 -
BHVR has said repeatedly they won't punish people for playing with friends. That means no treating them differently from solo players. You can write ten novels about all the different ways you'd like to chain SWF and tie their thumbs back, or even suggestions about gently encouraging playing solo with small BP incentives, but none of it will make it to the game. People are telling you it's not worth discussing for your benefit, so you don't waste time and energy on something that has already been discussed a million times before and simply will not happen. BHVR will not treat solo and SWF differently.
What BHVR is willing to do is make changes that help solo players without greatly affecting SWF and then go from there. Changes like they did with the HUD, to show what your teammates are doing.
10 -
It's 43% ER at High MMR vs 48%.
I've been out of school for a bit, but I'm fairly confident that isn't 10%
20 -
Punish people for playing with friends, step 1 on "how to kill an online game rule book"
20 -
Bhvr always tells a tale and then doubles back. Its kind of their thing. So no. I will not remain silence or stop adressing issues while bully squads and unlimited swf are allowed in dbd.
2 -
Then we saw different statistics old school
1 -
No, you see the difference might initially appear to be "only" 5%, but using extremely advanced maths, we can see that 5% is actually 10.41% of 48% and a staggering 11.63% of 43%, so if we add those 2 numbers we get 22.04 and if we find the square root of that number, we can come to the (very correct) conclusion that swf escape rate is actually 46.9% higher than soloq escape rate, which puts them at a 90% escape rate, so obviously swfs need to be perma banned from dbd for having such an insane advantage and being broken /s
16 -
As the latest statistic shows, swf players do have a huge advantage over solo q players.
No, statistic shows that SWF escapes only 3% more frequently than SoloQ players.
3 -
How about not doing that?
Instead of punishing the one survivor mode that works, improve the one that doesn't and buff killers to match.
7 -
So no. I will not remain silence or stop adressing issues while bully squads and unlimited swf are allowed in dbd.
I didn't tell you you had to stop. You can use your energy and your limited time on earth however you like (within legal and physical earthly limitations, or course). It's not hurting anyone, so if posting about how to nerf SWF teams is what makes you happy, then go for it.
8 -
Around half of all survs are in at least a two-man, by far the most common SWF, with trios much more rare and quads even more so.
The escape rates globally are less than half the time, with high MMR something like 4-5% better chances. That's it. And those in high MMR make up a small portion of the overall playerbase too.
So unless you're in that fabled high MMR area, the average survs aren't getting out all that less often. If you are in that mythical MMR congrats you now get the sweats vs. the sweats, most things are broken, and the game's balance has cracked. When the matchmaking functions.
Speaking of matchmaking, showing SWF before trial would lead to massive dodging, and awful backfilling the result. Queue times for everyone will soar, player count drops, all suffer.
As far as builds go, one thing they've made perfectly clear is they wish all players to run what they like, in both roles. Again the superhuman coordination you're likely talking about is only a small amount of the playerbase, and even then they don't escape half of the time either.
14 -
First of all, it doesn't take a comp player to take out your average SWF. Believe it or not 99% of SWFs arent comp players.
Second of all, punishing people simply to play with friends is and always will be a bad idea.
And finally, killers knowing who theyre going against in the lobby already shouldnt be a thing.
17 -
chat is this real?
5 -
Seems legit.
If you turn your head sideways and squint, it could be there. Maybe. A lil.
11 -
Ban discord and give survivors proximity chat. Way more fun and way less broken.
2 -
The killrate is only as high as it is because survivors give up right now at the slightest inconvenience. If you eliminated those, i'd imagine the escape rate is significantly higher.
7 -
You don't?
You should rather focus on improving soloQ, then all survivors are happy.
Punishing SWF is not helping anyone and it's simply bad idea.
7 -
Serious question: how would you ban Discord without installing malware on a person's computer, and how would you stop people from using it on their phones to bypass that? And Xbox and PlayStation have their own voice chat features, which if I remember correctly games are not allowed to interfere with.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on12 -
I personally have never understood why killers can see the lobby prestige and item load out. I’ve heard the arguments that killer needs to be able to prepare against the team but, would that not also cut both ways?
I just think it would be more fair all round and lead to less lobby dodging if neither survivors or killers could see each other in lobby beforehand.
15 -
You could check if discord is running but I doubt they would do something this extreme. Proximity chat was never intended because they feared toxicity amongst survivors.
Well there are still tons of toxic people who then use the after game chat but behaviour pretends toxicity doesn't exist.1 -
Imagine looking at a 50% escape rate and deciding that's unfair to play against. Yet solo survivors, with their 40% escape rate should just accept it? What kind of logic is that?
If you can't handle anything but solo queue players then that's a skill issue. Have you considered that maybe you could be playing better? Or is the only option to nuke SWF, seeing as their average of a 50% escape rate is so busted?
It's a luxury that most take for granted. That's why killer players jump on here and ask for more lobby shopping options, whilst also getting angry when survivors ask for info on the killer so they too can shop for a match they want. There's always some excuse for it, despite the fact that it's terrible for matchmaking in general.
13 -
It is that way because it is asymmetric and the killer cannot swap its power once the he joined a lobby. From what I learned thats way its only one way.
It would lead to survivors having a character ready to counter every killer and his basekit power. That would lead to very stressfull games.1 -
And here is the person who takes it personally lmao. This discussion is not about me or you. It is a general problem that my friends and I are facing a lot as well as others. And the intended rate is and always has been 60 % kill rate. So if that number is not met. things need to be adjusted
0 -
Proximity Chat wasnt avoided due to toxicity back when the game first came out, it was to more easily immerse yourself. This was explained way back when they use to do weekly streams.
4 -
I'm quite happy just to forego the whole lobby and just jump straight in!
Although I can see some merit for killers seeing the survivor items (which can also be countered by survivors by switching at the last minute, so it can become a double-edged sword), I just do not understand the point of Prestige being shown. It's mostly irrelevant (I've had P100s obliterated, whilst P0 really cause problems), and seems there solely for bragging rights, excuses for dodging, targeting and elitism. They being there doesn't bring anything positive to the lobby that I've noted to be even slightly positive.
5 -
Checking for Discord (if that's even possible and/or legal) might work for PC players maybe, but what about the consoles? They have built in comms, entirely separate from what game is even being played at the time. How could they enforce this idea if they lost their minds and wanted to?
5 -
As other have already mentioned, your stats are not correct:
The link to the original post is here, if you doubt that those stats are official:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/433-developer-update-stats
15 -
Key words: I imagine
15 -
"The intended kill rate is and always has been 60%" is just flat out wrong. It was 50% for about 6 years. When the kill rates started getting higher and higher, they said that they were okay with it. They were okay with 55%, then 60%, and I believe it's 64% last time they gave us stats.
Some of us have been around forever. We remember.
5 -
I'd like to see no lobbies tested out as well, see what effect is has on matchmaking. That would neatly get rid of lobby shopping around, last second swapping nonsense, prestige hate, targeting cosmetics, sifting through profiles, all of it.
Items could be still shown before the timer ends, so Lightborn or Franklin's etc. could still be run if desired.
4 -
How do you know it's a problem that you and your friends are facing. You have no way to know if you're against a team. I've had killers complain so many times about SWF nonsense in post game chat when we were all solos. It's really not that hard to coordinate with other solo players if you're paying attention.
It's also not that difficult to beat the majority of SWFs if you're a competent killer player. If you can find survivors, win chases quickly, and keep track of gen progress, SWFs can't do much and will often throw games trying to be overly altruistic.
The magic 60% your asking for is pretty much bang on already in all scenarios except the extreme cases.
The only change they need to make is to let solo players see everyone's build so we can use a wider variety of perks effectively.
2 -
I wonder how well the comp players would do without the callouts from discord etc...
If it's not an advantage, then they should be able to perform like they do in the tournaments without it right?
No one should be punished for playing with their friends. At least admit that having comms is an advantage.
1 -
This the only thing I wish we had was an indicator of who's in a group it would help me prepare for squads vs solo
0 -
BVHR is not going do anything about it besides balance around its existence for killer. that means that if a killer is too strong in soloq, it is whatever because it has to be balanced around SWF.
0 -
I agree with showing perks before the trial begins. It would allow survs not on comms to act more intelligently, and know when things like Head On and Plot Twist and Deliverance etc. are in play.
2 -
In the games i play that is a statistical fact, but i can't say anecdotal evidence is enough.
I'd say in probably over half the games i play, a survivor gives up and kills themself on hook, or just runs straight at me, or stands still or afks, or any other manner of throwing the game within the first 3 minutes.
2 -
I can tell you're a killer main, and a bad one at that, cause there's no way anyone but a bad killer would be upset at people playing with their friends.
1 -
If I had a nickel for everytime someone said "You can't punish people for playing with their friends!" Lol
While swf and solo queue may not be that far in terms of escape rate, swf with comms does feel better to play than solo queue and that gets downplayed a lot here I feel. A similar comparison would be PTB and the first live iteration of Vecna.2 -
What exactly do you mean it gets downplayed a lot? Obviously playing with your buds is a more enjoyable experience and it's brought up all the time.
4 -
The idea you need to be comp player to beat a SWF is laughable, if that were true I'm wasting my talent in pubs and need to join DBD league immediately. Fact is if you have good game sense and are mechanically good at your killer 99% of teams SWF or not arn't a problem.
I say this as someone who plays Hag, a killer that literally relies on survivors screwing up to actually do anything and I still 3k/4k the vast majority of the time and that's not because I'm the best Hag that ever was but because people arn't comp players even if they're in a SWF. Most of them are people that are mediocre at DBD playing with their friends that are also mediocre at DBD just having fun meanwhile people on here would have a meltdown at those people using discord while playing.
Instead of complaining about people having friends I genuinely believe it's a better use of your time to get better at killer and there are plenty of resources online to help you do that.
8 -
Only the last one
People think oh it will be lobby dodge simulator but thats just catastrophizing as per dbd usual
Being able to see the lobby so you can better prep or get into a different mindset is 100% better than being quashed mid match because you realized it was a team too late to change playstyle enough to have an impact. Its better to incentivize more fair mindsets then it is to give swf free wins against people who don't get to prepare or go into a match with the wrong expectations. Teams get stronger matches simple as.
0 -
the main problem with DBD:
1.) solo queue players are playing a game of checkers
2.) SWF players are playing a game of chess
3.) you can only balance the killer around checkers or chess
4.) but you can give solo queue buffs that make them stronger
5.) or you can nerf SWF that make them weaker
6.) and before you say "any buff to solo queue is a buff to SWF" that's not true at all. not if we gave solo queue more perks, or took away perks from SWF, or added in similar modifiers that altered the game for one but not the other.
1 -
Is your goal to get people to quit playing DBD? Why would you ever make it a worse experience to play with your friends?
There is nothing to do to buff solo queue besides letting us see everyone's builds. When they updated the UI to let us see what everyone is doing, it gave us 90% of the information we need to be successful. The problem isn't the game. The problem is the players, and it's pretty much an impossible problem to fix.
The biggest buff they could give solo queue would be to eliminate the DC penalty. Players giving up is by far the biggest problem. More bots is way more preferable than every other game being 1v3 after the first survivor is downed. Is buffing solo queue going to stop players from crouch walking around the edges of the map whenever someone is getting chased or stop players from all immediately bum rushing the hook to fight over the unhook?
0 -
Maybe put your effort into addressing bully squads, not swiffers in general.
1 -
I don't think SWF should be limited at all.
However I do think SoloQ Survivors should have a permanently in place 25-50% BP bonus. Just a small incentive for playing DBD authentically in the harder way to play it.
Could even look at killers a flat bonus at the end for facing a SWF. Just something like 1k for each 2-man, 2.5k for each 3 man, 4k for each 4-man. A flat bonus means they don't just tunnel or play hard ball to win to get more points on a multiplyer, they get it regardless.
That way everyone is happy.
- SoloQ makes up some extra BPs even if the game is a little rough, it encourages them not to leave.
- Newer Killers have a silver lining when facing SWFs so less likely to salty/toxic and actually try rather than just give up.
- Fun SWFs know they're giving everyone else BP bonuses and helping the community.
- Toxic SWFs trying to bully the solo random or the killer fail to do so, cause they get a bonus anyway, so you achieve nothing.
0 -
I'll leave my two cents on the matter. Facing a good and coordinated SWF can be one of the most dismal experience in DBD, if feels like your work is cut out for you at every turn, wherever you turn to, the survivors are already pre-running and the moment you do so, someone jumps on the gen on your back, putting extreme pressure on you.
And when you try to pick someone up, someone runs with background Player from out of Nowhere to flashbang you and you never feel save, or you get send to a map with brutal locker setups and 4 Head Ons, etc.
But (here comes to positive but) this aren't the norm of SWFs. You so often have duos that ate clearly marked as such, like having matching names or cosmetics and they often go out of their way to protect one another, playing suboptimal just to see their mate to safety and when one dies the other might give up, to follow them.
Me and my own SWFs, we are definitely not comp team level, we fool around a lot, slap each others butt's while on gens or whatever. We get the occasional save, but we aren't that super oppressive most of the time.
I would love if we could somehow limit the power of be comp team SWFs while leaving he others alone, and I think I have an idea how to do that. Mind you, limiting something is so often equaled to "punishing people to play with their friends", but so many multiplayer games impose certain limitations that aren't seen as "punishment". I think because it was unchecked since forever people are unreasonable allergic to any ideas.
Imagine if in a squad shooter like Overwatch you could run 5 tanks, that would be effective but probably also unfun and unbalanced to face, so that's limited.
And in the same vein, I would limit SWFs power a bit, without being unreasonable. What if we would limit perks to one or max. 2 per team? The hallmarks of a comp team are the plan and often repeated perks, like 4 Resilience, 4 Unbreakable, 4 DHs. If you limited the copies of the same perks by premades you would reign in the comp teams a little bit, but normal casual SWFs would not feel it at all or maybe just a little bit.
In my own regular SWF we have someone with Blastmine and Headon/Quick n Quiet, another one with Flashbang and some healing perk, another sirh some unhooking perks. Everyone has their own fun thing to do and we got really double perks. Just a thought.
3 -
Putting so much thought to nerf/limit friends just because they play together an online game is sad.
6
