Venting on the division within this community between survs and killers

Trying to win in a video game has nothing to do with a lack of empathy. I reject this entire line of reasoning.

The game is flawed, but the game is what it is. Pretending to play an ideal version of the video game where those flaws don't exist is putting yourself at a disadvantage. Now, you may choose to do that for whatever reason you want (mercy, giving yourself a challenge, etc.) but declaring that those who do not are lacking empathy is honestly absurd.

If what you're doing in the game is furthering your objective or interfering with your opponent's then doing so has nothing to do with a lack of empathy. As I mentioned before, this is distinct from BM/griefing behaviors, which I would define as doing something with the intent of causing negative emotions in other players, and that does not further your objective or interfere with theirs in any way. This is where the "legal but makes you a jerk" part of your argument comes in — for example, bleeding everyone out for 4 minutes even if you can hook. This is not remotely in the same category as tunneling someone out, sabotaging hooks, getting flashlight saves, etc., which all directly further an objective or interfere with the opponent's.

I would argue that the problem instead is people who continue to play DBD even though they are not having fun, and then attribute the actions of their opponent to malice when they are bested.

None of this is to say that anyone should give up on the game; there is good in this game buried under the layers of BHVR's complacency. We can and should argue for change to the game, but blaming other players for playing the game as it exists today rather than how you want it to be is not the way.

First off, if my message came across as hostile in any way I want to make it clear it was not intended to be so. Sometimes tone is difficult to portray in forum messages like these, and I do appreciate you taking the time to have a discussion about this, and to explain your points of view. I respect your points of view, even if I do very much disagree.

There is nothing wrong with trying to win, but the methods chosen to do so are a personal choice. Acknowledging flaws in the game and then exploiting those flaws because they're available does, in my opinion, reflect that individual. And that's where the lack of empathy comes in. The distinction between playing to win and BM is very subjective, but even strategic moves or traditionally "unfun" playstyles can be done without exploitation.

For example, slugging can be a valid tactic during specific circumstances like if sabo or flashlights are in play. But slugging an entire team to bleed them out, especially now that hooks respawn even after death, in my opinoin, crosses a line. It is still technically allowed, it is still a strategy, but you are knowingly creating a very poor experience for other people, and that does show a lack of empathy. Bully squads show a lack of empathy, even though continously blinding a killer over and over is not against the rules, it is still knowingly making someone else's experience as miserable as you can.

When it comes to your opinion on "the problem is the people who continue to play even though they are not having fun", I agree to an extent. If you're unhappy most of the time when doing something, then you should spend your time doing something else. But that doesn't take away individual player accountability to recognize when strats/perks/playstyles/items/combos etc. harm the collective enjoyment of the community as a whole. I do not think good sportsmanship should be discouraged or ignored.

Advocating for BHVR to make changes is important, but so is encouraging the community to make changes as well. Promoting empathy and responsibility in my opinion, is pushing for change. BHVR provides the framework, they set up the playground, but just because you can shove another kid off the swing doesn't mean you should. And if you do, I don't blame the playground.

I don't mind bluntness, and I welcome it! So long as it remains respectful and doesn't resort to blatant hostility or name-calling, as some people on the forums like to do lol.

I did bring up flaws, because in one of your previous messages you even admitted to flaws being present. I think most people regardless of bias or not can and will agree that the game is not perfect and does have flaws. And while those flaws are various and can be different things to different people, the impact of certain strats/playstyles/perk combos etc. on the overall enjoyment of the game is a shared experience, wether you consider them flaws or not. I don't think the issue is about subjective rules but about recognizing and acknowledging when a certain strat consistently creates negative experiences, and when deterents are even put in place to discourage them.

(i'm going to be saying strats for simplicity sake but know that this includes tings like perk combos and "bugs" and tech, infinites etc.)

I know that it's impossible to make everyone happy in the game, and what I refer to are things that BHVR as already addressed.

I understand that many of the most unfun strategies are often the most efficient ways to win. I believe that ensuring a fun experience for everyone should not require players to hold back or restrain themselves from being efficient. It's up to BHVR to ensure the game's balance, and I think they're aware of this and have shown it by nerfing certain playstyles. This suggests these strats were not intended as the primary way to play the game, which is why they feel exploitative when used excessively.

Given these nerfs, accountability and personal choice are involved when players opt to use them. I believe the game allows for these strats to exist because they are meant to be situational, not primary methods of play. When used excessively, they can be devastating to the other side and make the game both unfair/unfun. If these strats were not discouraged in some capacity, they wouldn't have received any nerfs.

So, it depends on your perspective. If you see BHVR's nerfs as addressing imbalances or if the nerfs aim is to improve overall player enjoyment.

If it's due to the imbalance, then the strength of these playstyles has to be considered. If they create a big enough tilt in balance that BHVR sees it necessary to implement nerfs, and people still rely on it for the primary play, then I believe it can be seen as being exploitative, which I believe does have to do with a lack of empathy, as I think explotation isn't possible without a lack of care for those affected.

If it's due to the overall enjoyment of the playerbase, then knowingly using these strategies despite their negative impact on others is blatantly unempathetic.

We all have our ideas on how to better balance the game and myself as well as perhaps you, have changes in mind. I'm not saying that what BHVR has done is "good enough" to put it simply, but it's taking a step in the right direction.

All this to say ultimately, as stated in my original comment, I believe that a lack of empathy is at the root of many issues in the game. The game will not improve if players remain in their bubbles and refuse to acknowledge the struggles of others. Or better yet, be aware of them but continue to do so without care, simply because they can.

Generally, when one side feels like things are against them, they're more vocal about it.

Been about 6 years for me, and I agree

Al though there are a lot less "extremists" than before. Most active users nowadays are more chill.

Am I the only one who has noticed all the unconfirmed accounts that are popping up, spewing nonsense troll posts? I saw one user get banned for hate speech, and be back on with a new account within a day or so. Same inarticulate complaints, just with less slurs. I feel like there's a lot more of this than there used to be.

Coincidentally, polarized views on this forum became worse when they took away the vote down button. People muted themselves a little more for some reason. C'mon BHVR, you know what to do.

Honestly, any common players are absolutely tolerate anything that happens in the game, as long as it's not the targeted harassment

Empathy really works when both people have same standards, which I doubt to be true

"respect" only works when both sides have same sense of respect or disrespect, most people just don't really care much in things happening in games

If someone don't feel disrespect for the very thing they are doing, there is no way empathy or anything alike stops them from being "disrespectful" to others, so whether they have empathy or not is really irrelevant

And not like this game has "common standards" that can be applied to any players, because if that exists dev would start banning anything bad