Unfun for Survivors
I've made a few posts in the forums lately & I've brought up this particular topic a little & have made a post in the past. I'm quite active on dbd at the moment. Tonight's session has seen two killers who are expert tunnelers, a Freddy & a Nemesis. Edit (I don't mean these killer characters are good at tunneling I mean the players I was against)
Here's where this topic already gets people mad, "entitled survivor" hates "playstyle" & the "only option" for killers. I'm not trying to get a rise, this isn't bait (usual conclusion people come to onk their own).
I play my portion of both sides, of course play survivor more I'll be honest, that said I'm not ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE AMAZE BALLS at either, I have my moments with each. That said, both are still relative, you can have silly survivor teammates or troll teammates. Survivor also seems to be full of teammates quitting, either on first hook (maybe a bad session) or because a killer is tunneling most notably.
The arguments are always "get good" & "it's only a game" or as already mentioned "it's a playstyle" & "it's our only option as killers" again we're not talking about SWF being too OP we're talking about solo q or just no comms teams against killers that tunnel people out from the start. I've seen loads about it recently, many great points as well, here's my take (not that anyone asked).
Camping has been given counters & can be countered if the team was smart enough anyway, strong perks are strong perks, how you use them & how annoying they may be is the state of the meta the combos/synergy & even who's using them, while we could argue the state of survivor perks that's not the issue. Both sides have their priority perks as it were. Slug-ing is annoying but is completely on the killer to get to to pay off for them, it's tough to go against but much like camping it is relatively counterable. Tunneling however is the major & greatest issue in dbd. Both as an in game threat & an actual player base threat.
I say it a lot but getting tunneled back to back to back is infuriating & isn't a case of get better at the game, "suck less" & isn't a case of "find your own fun in dbd then" you paid to play a game & spend most of your time not playing & in the lobby. That's not fun & will make plenty wish for a refund if they're new. That's where the biggest issue lies, the new players will be joining dbd at the worst state of it. Tunneling from every killer every game, no chance at escape & could just keep happening. The player base already in the game is leaving & quitting due to these & other issues, new players won't even want to bother. It's a shame it really is & is something over all that needs addressing, I thought maybe it'd be an idea to make an in game penalty to BP for immediately downing & hooking a survivor you just did. But maybe there's a better actual way of preventing it entirely, granted I don't know what & don't know if that's healthy but that's because I see both sides. I get why you need to sometimes, not right out the gate, start of the game there's no need. If the game isn't going the way you need for the win, at that point of course I get it. At the end of the day survivors are the players the killer goes after, if we destroy the player base & make it impossible for survivors & keep causing them to just not play & tunnel them out game after game eventually you could say we'd lose the only reason the killers are able to play. Yes okay bots exist now but a full lobby of bots, really? The survivors not being there means there's no game to play realistically.
I honestly don't know what else I can say. It's just genuinely the most damaging problem to dbd as a whole I fear. Good luck in the fog everyone.
Comments
-
Um a lot of survivor's claim the chase is the fun part, looping. It's interesting that they like the chase when they can loop the whole match but if they get caught it's "tunneling" and no longer want to be chased. Out of all the controversial tactics killers use (slugging, camping, tunneling) tunneling is the 1 tactic that gives survivors exactly what they want....the chase. So enjoy the chase and dont get caught.
And Freddy?? Arguably the worst killer in the game? That one playing Freddy must have been a pro because Freddy is awful as an killer, he's useless lol. Survivors have all they need to counter the killers tactics with items and perks. You might not find the game enjoyable anymore but do you think it's fun for killer when survivors are literally doing a scooby doo sketch around a pallet for ages then move to a new one and repeat? It's part of the game, that's why I deliberately go anti loop killers and go into a match prepared to deal with the most common tactic I see.
8 -
The chase is the only part of the survivor role that provides skill expression, which is why many including myself feel it is the fun part. But the survivor is not designed to be able to loop a decent enough distance with only 1 health state, which is why there are 2 before they are down. When you are tunneled off hook, you are only left with 1 health state, so the chances of the chase lasting are extremely slim leading to a quick down which is why it is such an effective "playstyle". Killers can choose the hook they put the survivor on as well, it is sometimes dependent upon map rng but it's not difficult to hook a survivor into a dead zone, or a corner of the map where there are no resources to help that survivor after they've been unhooked. For example I've been put on a hook on the hill by a tunneling buba, so, no escape there. And I've been put on a hook in the back of the map in a corner while a huntress stood on a hill nearby and hit those who tried to unhook me and then tunneled.
Tunneling is very easy, and surviving tunneling is not. You can push it on survivors and claim they need to get better, that they should've brought perks to counter something base-game, that they need to just move on to the next. You have every right to feel that way. But Tunneling is not popular because it is an impressive display of skill or because it is risky. It is popular because it is easy, and it is effective. Thus why anti-tunneling perks and measures were put in the game to try and counter it, because it is strong.
Many have their solution to tunneling, and I have my own. Right now killers don't have much of an incentive to spread hooks, and a common issue/complaint in the killer role is gen times. I propose that tunneling reflects the gen effeciency. If a killer hooks a survivor consecutively, then all gens get a repair speed buff, taking less time to complete. When killers hook a different survivor, all gens get a repair speed slowdown that does not count as one of the 7 damages a gen can take (the anti 3-gen system) taking more time to complete. These would stack for both sides. This doesn't take away a killers option to tunnel but it is no longer the most effecient strategy and in turn, every survivor gets a chance to play the game. It provides a built in slow down not reliant on perks, and rewards killers for taking the time to chase multiple survivors.
13 -
There is a lot of nonsense in thread so far. Let's start with fun. You bring it yourself. It has nothing to do with who the Killer is, what the Killer brings, or what your teammates do or bring. Fun is entirely a mindset, and you either bring it with you or you don't. You either dig a challenging game (win or lose) or you don't. You either enjoy facing adversity, being behind the eight ball, and seeing if you can achieve the impossible, or you don't. Dead by Daylight is a stress engine. Just like a horror movie, it wants to keep you in as continuous state of stress as possible. Some people love horror movies, while others do not. The artificial stress created by certain types of films and games are intended as a release. However, if you are one of those people who doesn't get fun from that, and cannot let go of the stress after the match. If you are one of those people who just gets more and more emotionally tilted with each progressive match, one would have to ask why you are still playing.
Going on to the other nonsense, there there is just as much skill in doing stealth right as there is in looping. Some people are better at one thing or the other. The best Players work both aspects. I find statements about looping as if it is the only real skill, because some people are biased toward it both funny and a reflection on the people who make them. If you like looping, and are good at it, great. If you are doing your job wasting the Killer's time, awesome. Kudos. Don't get an inflated opinion of yourself or the role you play on the team. I assure you that I'm far more interested in those stealthy types cranking Generators for less points at the end. If the Generators don't get done, nobody gets out.
When I'm doing Solo, I always see the self-appointed Loopers who follow the Killers around trying to get them to chase. Most seasoned Killers can identify these Don Quixote types almost instantly and proceed to pretend to chase them or ignore them all game, until the end. Why? These wanna-be Looper Superstars just want to be chased. They don't get on the Generators, and insist on continuing to try and get the Killer's attention. Good Killers know that person is already dead weight. Why waste time chasing him/her? You would think this idiotic Don Quixote behavior would be rare, but due to the mindset many people have about looping, that is it he important, fun part, it is far too common.
Lastly, Tunneling, Camping, and Slugging are often the most misidentified behaviors in the game and people complaining about them are almost always WRONG. I wish there was a nicer way to say it, but there isn't. You get downed for a variety of reasons, but the chief among them is that the Killer caught you when you made a mistake. Wars are not won by the side that does the most right. They are won by the side that makes the fewest mistakes. Dead by Daylight is, by nature of it being a stress engine, is a game of attrition. You don't become a decent Chess Player until you can see at least seven moves ahead. You don't become a good player of Dead by Daylight until you can count the costs accurately, and thus make efficient choices. It is silly to complain about one Killer or another. The two you picked out are different from those others would choose. Why is that? It is because it isn't a problem with the Killers. It is YOUR problem. You learn to deal with it, or you don't.
1 -
I'm going to try and boil down the post to a couple of points.
I say it a lot but getting tunneled back to back to back is infuriating & isn't a case of get better at the game, "suck less" & isn't a case of "find your own fun in dbd then" you paid to play a game & spend most of your time not playing & in the lobby.This can definitely be frustrating. It's easy to go on a bad run as a survivor where you can play multiple games and it feel outright impossible.
In a sense, that's the game. Survivor is hard, but it feels great to escape. That's the appeal to me. It can be incredibly frustrating, but actually pulling off a successful escape is an unmatched feeling.
That's where the biggest issue lies, the new players will be joining dbd at the worst state of it.It's not really the worst. People frequently say 'tunneling is worse than its ever been!' but I don't think that's true, its a pretty common complaint.
I thought maybe it'd be an idea to make an in game penalty to BP for immediately downing & hooking a survivor you just did.BP wouldn't work, it's not really that much of a motivator for many players.
There's lots of possible solutions. I think the one that gets talk about the most recently is the unhooked survivor having an incorporeal state for awhile that disappears if they do a conspicuous action. This would help the survivor by preventing tunneling, but also not allow the survivors to just body block the killer.
Something like that might work, but the concept of it seems a little silly to me.
0 -
I know why tunneling is not popular and killers do it because it's efficient but what you suggest with hooking same player consecutively resulting in gen speed buff it leaves it open to be exploited by survivors that basically get hooked once then try to get hooked again so the team gets the buff to gen rush before the killer gets a chance to hook someone else. Even if the killer doesn't intentionally tunnel they could be forced into providing the survivors team with a buff they didn't want to do. This is especially true when survivors are the character, it can be difficult to keep track of who's been hooked and who hasn't when there are 4 sables running around. It would just increase slugging tbh which is another thing survivors hate as they express this very clearly when I slug the last 2 to deal with the hatch situation. It is true, people know what the match entails, know the common strats and tactics used so should come prepared to counter them
0 -
If a survivor is attempting to exploit it, then you can leave them slugged. That's one less person on a gen and it's going to take another person to come and pick them up which is 2 off a gen. Survivors usernames are displayed to show who you are chasing as well, to manage hooks given. I also don't think it would be difficult to implement a small display alongside an update like this in which it shows how many hooks each survivor has to better keep track of this as well.
Slugging the last 2 survivors is very different than not allowing a survivor to "exploit" the system as you previously mentioned. Slugging someone who goes out of their way to get downed after a hook is different than slugging to prevent someone from progressing the game at all.
Simply put I disagree that this would not be a fair trade off for an effective counter to tunneling as well as rewarding killers for multiple chases.
1 -
freddy and nemesis aren't the killers that come to mind when i think about "actually good at tunnelling", so it's interesting they're namedropped here.
when bhvr removed the extra bloodpoints from bbq, killers stopped caring about spreading hooks. removing bonus bloodpoints from healthy perks that encouraged playing nice and fair was a decision that i still don't agree with.
now the bloodpoints are tied to whichever role needs more players, but honestly, it doesn't matter if survivor has a 200% bonus if the killers don't have any incentive to let survivors earn any points.
bhvr should just take a bunch of weak-but-healthy perks that encourage killers to play fair (or encourage altruism, if you're a survivor) and add bonus bloodpoints to those perks.
0 -
1 - absolutely the game can be & should be fun live or die, it's been that way for 8 years I totally agree but with the state of things at the moment a bad run can be days not just one session y’know. It's tough, especially for newer players too.
2 - tunneling has always been around yes, the fact it's a common complaint doesn't mean it still isn't at its worst now. I genuinely think it is, we can of course agree to disagree but I do believe for some reason tunneling has been particularly bad these last few years.
3 - as for the corporeality idea, my issue with that is I genuinely do see it from both sides and the survivors would have too strong of a tool I feel with that. My BP idea was thought to be a nice solution as if it made a serious impact on the BP earned essentially killers would either have to change it up for it to be worth playing or suffer being unable to level up or keep using the best add-ons etc. if you get me. I'd like to think the descent killers who don't care about BP are also better than tunneling right from the start or just throughout more so. Again I know there's a stage in a match it may be necessary but that's why a solution I believe needs to be less powerful for one side & more just a massive reason to not do it. All this said doesn't change the fact it is a very hard thing to think of a solution for, but it's getting bad for the game in a big way & needs addressing better than just silly "get good" comments or "just run otr" you can be amazing at the game it still won't change the outcome even if not just for you, your teammates.
0 -
You know this aaalll would be a non-issiue if killers were rewarded for each hook state rather than only sacrifices, then there was no need to tunnel because it doesnt matter if you have 6 hooks and noone dead or 6 hooks and 2 dead.
But over here in dead by daylight we do not reward. We only know restrictions and punishment and yet with all the measures taken tunneling remains the best and most effective strategy there is. And this will never change until they make the killer role so insufferable that people will just never play killer because its way too hard to keep up.
I understand being tunneled is very frustrating, it annoyes me aswell when its done to me. But its just as frustrating having 2 gens pop every game start (because people litteraly spawn right next to em) when you didnt even get a hook yet. And just like you i dont want to hear nothing about "get better" or "lack of skill".
Its on the devs. As long as they dont chance the sucsess requirments for both sides and REWARD the fun parts of the game rather than punish the unfun parts, nothing will change.2 -
"Tunneling from every killer every game" - I don't believe that for a second. I believe there is tunneling sometimes, but not literally every single game. I'm not going to believe this unless someone shows me their continuous stream of games (unedited) where literally every single game for 10 games in a row someone is tunneled out (actual tunneling, not "killer didn't hook every survivor evenly = tunneling")
"The player base already in the game is leaving & quitting due to these & other issues" - what data do you have to prove this? The other available data we have for player count is Steamcharts, which currently shows a healthy and stable player count.
Also, what solutions do you propose here? Camping and tunneling are valid tactics (validated by the devs MANY times) that are sometimes required for killers to secure any kills in a game. Yes, some killers camp and tunnel when they don't need to, but nerfing/punishing these strategies only makes the game more difficult and miserable for killer players when they legitimately need to use them to have a chance at winning a match. If you really do play killer side like you claim you do, I would think that you would understand this.
2 -
"Tunneling from every killer every match" - sorry, I don't believe this for a second. Yes, I see killers tunneling sometimes (actual, legit tunneling), but I've never seen it more than maybe a couple matches in a row and in my experience it is less than half of my matches. Maybe somebody can share their unedited stream of 10+ matches in a row where there's real actual tunneling (and not "killer didn't spread hooks evenly = tunneling") and then I will believe that it's actually possible to see in literally every match.
"The player base already in the game is leaving & quitting due to these & other issues" - what data do you have to support this? The only publicly available data we have is Steamcharts, and that shows a healthy and stable player count.
Finally, what solutions do you propose here? Tunneling and camping are valid strategies (validated by the devs MANY times) and they are sometimes required to have a chance at winning a match, especially when survivors are coordinating on comms. Yes, sometimes killers do these things when they don't need to, but nerfing/punishing these tactics will only make the game more miserable for killer players who sometimes need to employ these tactics to have a chance to win. If you play really play killer like you claim you do, I would think you would understand this.
0 -
If I could record 10 games for you & send you a link without faff on here I would. It doesn't need to be tunneled, in fact I refer to the person usually being tunneled to be a swf teammate more often than not.it still stands though. You can choose not to believe it but unless you're playing it with us or seeing it you just won't be able to acknowledge that it's happening genuinely.
You ask what data, the steam stats say enough but honestly look at the forums other discussions, check twitter. Ask any old players from discord groups etc. they're all leaving, plenty of YouTubers have the same worries. Don't ask me for the data when the conversation is right in front of you. The game is in a bad way right now & the tunneling isn't helping or going to help grow the player base.
Also if you had actually read it properly I gave my idea for a solution that doesn't buff survivors or hinder killers too much as I couldn't think of another healthy way to do it other than an in game BP penalty. I will say if you also read it you are now telling me sometimes killers have to tunnel & camp. To secure the kill sure, I'm not mad at that I've said. It's right from the start & much like the tunneling gameplay you wish for as proof I would love to give you proof of my killer games going pretty well usually even without tunneling. I'm not the best at either side I'm aware but not every game has to resort to what you call a "valid tactic" that is incredibly unfun for them right off the bat so you can play the rest of the match care free. You can play without it & if you play well enough surely can see you don't NEED to like so many want to claim. The whole discussion here is about how it's an unfun way of doing things, not securing kills in the end game. Right out the gate, tunneling non stop several games in a row or in a session & that just sucking for the survivors who are the only reasons killers have something to do in the game. You try to say you don't agree because you don't have proof & disbelieve how things play out when I play killer. So you won't accept a take on the problem in the game but also clearly aren't reading or understanding what's being said or being aware of the same discussions being had everywhere in the community. It's a grey area for sure but either way it's not fun. That's my opinion & you're fine to disagree but it doesn't make it any less of a problem for others too.
1 -
One day you will get in high mmr as killer and you will see that game is not fun for killers also it looks fun when you watch it on yt but thats just cause streamers use vpn to get in the lobbies with players who are new.
1
