Why nobody wants to play this modifier as survivor?
As expected, the bloodpoints bonus has been on survivor since the modifier got implemented on Thursday because it is still poorly designed for survivor gameplay. The killer pool that they face there is constantly the same with borderline abusive powers (info related) in a mode that is supposed to play around exactly not having infos. They completely destroy the point of the game mode and it's understandable people do not want to face such killers (Doctor, Skull Merchant and Legion from the top of my head, since they're the ones I have faced every other game in rotation during my tome challenges completion.)
With this game mode I feel the same I do about 2v8 with how impossible it is to get into a game as killer in a timely fashion, and I understand perfectly why and honestly I can't blame people for not wanting to play survivor here past their tome challenge completion.
Personally I would kill switch killers with info powers solely for the reason of defeating the point of the game mode, or at least tweak such powers (I do not get why Legion still gets killer instinct in this game mode, like it's the most ridiculous in MY opinion.)
Any thoughts and ideas on how to improve the survivor experience for this game mode? It's been released twice and even after the survivor tweaks we got this time, I feel that it's still not appealing enough and still lacks traction for survivor gameplay.
Comments
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The mode is just bad. BHVR should abandon it completely instead of trying to "fix" it.
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I think if they banned a lot of killers from it that might help, but that is also not likely to be a very popular solution.
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From my experience I just don't want to play it anymore as survivor because I only faced those 3 killers mentioned above and it feels so cheesy. As killer, queues take so long so I cannot be bothered anymore now that I am done with the archives. I would definitely play it more if I didn't know already that if I queue up I will just face most likely Legion (if not Merchant or Doctor) and it feels insanely cheesy and uninteractive.
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Played it once against a Trapper as a survivor (though I never stepped in a trap so I just played against a M1 Killer basically) so can't rightly give great feedback but:
- Because they hide the generator repair HUD I have no feeling of progress on generators as the rate of change of audio for it is rather imperceptible/smooth. (Though I like that generators start with 5% progress giving an in-game manner for survivors to learn/hear where a generator is.)
- I've never found the act of repairing generators themselves interesting. I found the dynamic of needing to avoid the killer/repair when the opportunity arises to be interesting (and I suppose some people like to be skill-check monkeys). But with no Terror radius or chase indicator that dynamic is basically non-existent now.
- Since I can't see the numbers of generators completed I further have no sense of progress
- There is no longer any tension provided by the Terror Radius, nor can I see far, other survivors, etc. so I feel isolated. Possibly a good thing, but:
- Upon getting hit out of nowhere (which is a bit of a jump to be sure, cool), I found it hard to navigate the map, just getting downed immediately.
- The Auras of the Candelabras don't take into account that this "impenetrable darkness" is a "wall" itself so if I was running to one that was out in the open (This was on Dead Dawg Saloon) its aura would disappear making it a bit annoying to navigate to efficiently. (Perhaps this is also an issue with hooked survivor auras, I don't recall if you can see a hooked survivors aura in this game mode. You should.
Keep the generator completion HUD Icon.
I'd say rework how generators are visually/audibly handled entirely by making their whole animation/audio system not so gradual and more staircase incremental to indicate % thresholds hit, but that'll probably take more work. Just add the repair bar back.
Reconsider how auras are shown to Survivors in open areas while in the darkness/outside of a light source.
Bring back the Terror Radius, not to 32m, but maybe 16m, 10m? Don't make it so easy to get the first hit off. (But also maybe there's a side-objective the Killers can participate in to gain full on undetectable until next hit)
Do something to indicate another survivor is in chase. Does the entity "twitch", is it excited with this ongoing chase? How could that be represented in the Trials audio/visuals? (not in a HUD)
Maybe the Candelabra's could give some kind of Windows of Opportunity effect while held in chase?
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Regarding other Killer powers/information powers, that is a huge issue.
Legion should not be eligible for this game mode just from a conceptual standpoint. Doctor too.
Or make it so that while holding the candelabra the Survivors are immune to Aura Reading/Killer instinct/Screams. You're more visible, but only because of the light.
Possibly make it so that Survivors holding Candelabras Show their Aura to other Survivors holding Candelabras. A kind of link that the Killer can also destroy, and more of a reason to find another Candelabra if yours is destroyed. (Maybe you don't actually see Aura's, but instead the beating heart of survivors as a ever-present low-tier terror radius effect while holding a Candelabra? Could that also be used to indicate if a survivor is in chase viewing an increased heartbeat at a distance?)
Maybe make the Candelabras more like "Darn" Freddy's Clocks:
If the Killer hits you with a Basic Attack (or just keep this trigger point to when the survivor is put in the dying state, or perhaps give the Killer a side-objective that causes the candelabra of the next survivor you injure to break?), the Candelabra falls out of your hand and is broken. A candelabra spawns on a nightstand elsewhere for you to pickup with its Aura shown to you (no need to try and find a chest in the darkness) that only you can grab (as to others is blocked by the entity/not visible)
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The only annoying killer is Bubba. He is completely silent until he revs his chainsaw and then you go down. He proxy camps the hook and you go down and the person you are unhooking goes down.
I'm fine with the rest.
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it's boring and it seems like killers have found the best way to optimize via playing as stealth killers (or legion) similar to how all you saw was huntress and trapper in 2v8
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This version is far more balanced than the original version, and I gave it a good go while doing the Tome but it's just not enjoyable for me. I don't think there's anything they can really do to make it more tolerable for me personally, not even the bp bonus is enticing enough. It's always good to have something different though, and I'm glad the devs are giving us these modes and modifiers.
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I don't know why they keep insisting on banning bloodpoint offerings from these modes. From a rewards perspective there's no reason to play this mode over normal. 200% does not replace the lack of offerings. I already have a 100% when I play normal and there are at least 2-3 bp offerings per match these days. The gameplay is not good enough to justify playing for fun alone. When I did play I got back to back Bubbas into a Dredge. After that I immediately decided I was stopping after I finished the tome. I have not touched it since the first day.
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Only change i would make is to have certain killers banned from this mode. GhostFace and Meyers with their stalk ability is lets them bypass the darkness letting them see survivors rather far. Maybe few others that can easily exploit the advantages that they have.
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I played this mode for a bit as a survivor and for me it wasn't so bad. I don't really like the game mode either but I saw a good variety of killers. I saw a Myers, Legion (that was probably the least enjoyable match), Ghostface, Sadako, Pyramid Head, Blight (no idea how they managed to play in the dark), Bubba and Trapper.
Overall it was pretty boring. It felt like nothing happened most of the time, so I just sat on gens and waited for the game to end. The missing progress bar makes it harder to have any sense of progress but I managed to keep track of the remaining gens every time without issue, so I had at least some idea of our progress.
Legion, Doctor and SM are probably the only real fun killers for this game mode. With all the others you just run around like a clueless idiot. Because for the most part, that is pretty accurate. You can't see the survivors because they drop their candles immediately and then you just hope to find someone randomly while they smash the gens. A hit can easily result in you losing that survivor as well. So again, you feel like nothing happens. That is really my biggest issue with the game mode.
Both sides have little sense of progress, so it's hard to be invested in the match.
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I just really don't like the mode. I dislike it on both sides, but survivor felt especially bad for three reasons.
One: Your killer is either playing Dracula, which is fine and fun, or they're playing a stalk killer or Dredge, which is not fun. I got decent at dealing with Ghostface and using sound cues to locate him even when he isn't visible, but there isn't anything I can do about Myers being able to locate me blind from 40m away and then swoop out of the darkness with a zero-TR instadown, or Dredge turning the screen into a black void for 60 seconds at a time, and doing it constantly because survivors have a lot of trouble with healing.
Two: It brings back the old solo queue issue of "I have no earthly idea what anyone is doing." I was very glad to leave those days behind and I don't want them back. Candelabras technically help with that, but two issues: you can only check what anyone's doing when you aren't doing anything yourself, and they make it so much easier for the killer to track you. It's better not to carry one.
Three: You're even more lost than the killer is. The killer at least has the points of interest highlighted for them. I wasted so much time running around blindly and going in circles because I couldn't find anything, particularly in zones where gens were already completed. And the EGC was a mess. Even when I was playing killer and patrolling gates, it was terribly common for the survivors who didn't open the gate to take close to the end of the EGC to escape because they had no idea where anything was.
Personally I'd say to scrap the mode entirely. I liked the tension every time the killer wasn't chasing someone else, but DBD just isn't balanced around a mode without proper chases and the players adapt by playing scummy (mass camping and hiding), which isn't fun for anyone. DBD is at its most fun when the killer is constantly getting into chases and the survivor is constantly doing something, and Lights Out involves too much time running around lost feeling like you're losing the game by inaction.
But to improve the gameplay within the mode, I think survivors need more information and certain killer powers need to be rebalanced for the mode or banned. Do that and I'd be fine with nerfing the gen speeds, though I'd still not want to play it unless forced to.
Honestly, the killer powers need to be rebalanced either way. Wraith has virtually no power beyond fast map traversal because the mainstay of his power is already provided by the mode. Vecna sabotages himself by existing because the chest items still provide survivors with aura reading, so they know where he is any time he uses his power. And killers like Legion and Artist have baked-in locating tools that remove the mode's main difficulty for killers - I used Artist for the latter half of my killer challenges and being able to monitor gens and see which direction survivors fled gave me so much more info than my Dracula games.
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I'm just not interested in it. I, generally, like the base game. I don't want a dark version of that game and I think with how the game mode has gone that feeling seems to be pretty common.
But limiting the killer pool would probably be the right move. 2v8 had the right idea there on slowly moving killers into the game.
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The thing is that the whole point of the game mode is that, that you can't see the enemy that easily at all. If you have fun just playing info killers maybe the game mode is not for you, which is fine and alright. Imagine if survivors could have kindred, wiretap, or object of obsession. It just defeats the whole point of the game mode to have info on the enemy team and those 3 killers should not be playable there.
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Well. I mean. The darkness is kinda cool looking though. As is the ambiance of the Candelabras and bats/eyes. Ignoring actual gameplay.
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What does that have to do with what I said though? Nobody discussed the aesthetic or the ambiance. I indeed think that everybody can agree the lighting and athmosphere are sickening. The topic is allowing killer powers to work in a way that defeats the purpose of the game mode.
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Uh. Well, IMO I kinda get the vibe that the entire point of the game-mode is the aesthetic and ambiance provided by the restricted lighting, environmental effects, and suppression of information/HUD? More of a claustrophobic feeling reminiscent of the darker maps prior. Probably why so few mechanical considerations were made.
Otherwise they could've just released a mode where the Killer is permanently undetectable and the HUD is disabled if "mechanics" were all this was about.
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I get that this defeats the purpose of this game mode at least to some degree. That's why I explained why these killers are the ones that are the most fun. You don't get any clues at all that would tell you where the survivors might be so you just run around aimlessly for the most part. Which means, that nothing happens. No interaction, no sense of urgency, nothing. That's the most boring thing that can happen in this game. Or any game for that matter. You can test this by starring at your TV for 5 minutes while it's turned off. You'll be bored and that's pretty much the same experience you have in lights out as a killer whenever you aren't in chase.
The difference between killer and survivors in this regard is, that the survivors' objective doesn't move. So once you find a gen, you can always get back to it. Not to mention, there is a sound clue to help you find gens. The killer's objective, survivors, on the other hand does move. Survivors can also hide and don't give the killer an audio clue whenever they are near.
Survivors at least have something to do when the killer isn't on their heels. The killer however doesn't. So the actual progression part of the killer gameplay is decreased and replaced with random patrols around the map, which isn't fun to anyone that knows the maps. Doing gens isn't particularly fun either but at least you are doing something.
I agree that this game mode 100% isn't for me (I haven't played any of these 3 killers) and it seems that a lot of other people feel the same way. We don't play a game to have nothing happen, so we are bored whenever that is the case.
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Maybe the Red Stain could be brought to the forefront in that regard:
copy from a post I've made before
Just a spitball idea to give some ambiance/killers some tracking potential and area lighting (if needed):
Make the red stain visible to the Killer, make it an AoE red light source that emanates from them. (This AoE more like a glow than a hard light)
Maybe have it grow in size/intensity as you get near survivors? (If killer tracking ever becomes a concern in this game mode, then also disable Killer seeing Generator auras and using this as a form of tracking?)
A spotlight of faint glowing red energy that grow in intensity as you near survivors (so you patrol and watch for that glowing to intensify indicating a nearby survivor and then start searching). Possibly also making the surrounding area more interesting to watch for survivors as well.
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being stalked by a ghostface I physically can’t see thanks to the fog is very fair and balanced
Killers with built in tracking are definitely balanced in lights out of course
Also getting constantly grabbed off of gens is just boring
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- I played 4 games in this mode as survival against 2 Myers and 2 Ghostface... for the first time I gave up on completing a tome (I've been playing for 5 years doing all the tomes 100%). This modifier isn't for me but I'm happy for those who enjoy it. for me it's simple torture, I have to play to have fun
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Like any mode, my teammates are the big determinant. I often get teammates who pick up the candles I put down as map markers and carry them around indefinitely or move them... well, they move them far enough away the landmark is lost but not to a new useful spot, just somewhere pointless. (No, not somewhere clever to distract the killer. And no, I don't steal theirs, I use my own and ones I find in chests. They leave theirs where it drops when they're downed.) It feels like purposeful sabotage and at that point I lose interest in the match. That's when I gather up the scattered candles and put them in a circle, like a shrine. That's its own kind of fun.
I am annoyed that the recovery bar is hidden. Recovery gets interrupted often while playing, and unlike a gen popping or a health state changing, there's no indication of when you've recovered as much as you're allowed unless you tap it and watch for the Bloodpoint scoring events to stop.
I can't really comment on whether certain killers are too strong until I consistently get teammates who play effectively. Right now, my teammates hold candles through the entire match as bright beacons so the killer knows where they're hiding; the killer needs no help from their power to find them.
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I just think it's a really bad game mode for solos and/or newer players, with minimal HUD information and you don't know where the loops are if you haven't already played the map a few times. And it's way less chill, you have to constantly be alert even if you're just sat on a gen which is pretty draining.
That said it's also not a great time for Killers who don't benefit as much from the modifier, and if the survivors have comms.1 -
I think it's just not a good mode unfortunately. I respect their attempt at fixing it and I do think it's more balanced than it was last time, but it's still just not very fun. Having to constantly be alert every game against killers who weren't originally designed to have constant stealth just isn't very interesting. I already stopped playing it, I couldn't force myself to complete the event tome.
Super excited for Chaos Shuffle to come back though
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It's not for everyone. If it's not for you then don't play it.
The only issues I have with the mode as it is now, and yes it is more balanced, are:
- No BP offerings
- Some Killer break the mode too much while others don't have any power in it at all
- They slightly overbuffed gen repair basekit (fine idea, 20% is just a bit too much IMHO)
- The tomes can ONLY be done in the mode (which I do not agree with)
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It's so fun to get stalked to 99 and then get exposed when I have little time to react.
Wish I could hear the footsteps of Nemesis or Knight to unsettle me. Or have a Pig roar at me out of the blue or a Victor pouncing at me.
I did have a Myers who refused to go above T1. Now that was a fun match. I gave the person a thumbs up in the end.
But other than that I did the challenges to collect the stuff and good with the modifier.
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Not being able to see just isn't fun.
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As a Ghostface Main I am TELLING you it really isn't that easy. We can't see you highlighted from a distance. We have to point blank stalk and risk a Reveal, or guess.
He's just not as overpowered in the mode as people are claiming.
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I played him and he felt pretty ridiculous since the reveal mechanic doesn't even work properly to begin with and they couldn't reveal me while staring at me dead in the eye and they said they couldn't even see me while doing so due to the fog. It's okay to admit your favorite killer excels.
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That's just a Ghostface thing tbh. The reveal system is jank. Always has been. Unknown actually has the same issue.
Stop being mad that Killers have synergy with things, they're allowed to. It's not okay to ban Killers just because they do well in one little mode that is only a week in length. It's also okay to have some Killers be better than others at a modifier, especially when they are normally just a pretty balanced low B to high C Killer that isn't problematic.
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some matches i feel like the gens could take 10 seconds each to complete and my teamates would still mess it up . This mode is everythibg myself and alot others hate about dbd. Stealth and immersion are such boring playstyles and this mode fully caters to that .
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It's kind of an issue when the killer bypasses the main handicap of the modifier. Ghostface isn't good in Lights Out because he can stalk the survivor when they can't see him and instadown, or because his reveal system is janky. Ghostface is good because he can just swivel into the darkness with his power until someone's icon starts lighting up, and he can find people when he shouldn't be able to.
When my games weren't against Dracula, the tome challenge killer, they were Dredge or Ghostface. Always. Had two Myers and one Doctor. I did not face a single killer who wasn't Dracula and didn't have some kind of synergy with the mode.
Ghostface is one of my favorite killers to play and I have nothing against him. However, the killer balance in this mode was not thought out and it makes the experience of playing it very unenjoyable, because players will always gravitate towards their strongest options, and in this case that meant using clearly unintentional game mechanics to either bypass the mode's penalties or compound them for the opponent. Same way a solid third of the survivors I was matched with or versed were Claudettes wearing her darkest outfits.
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I kept playing killers I thought would be fun to hear off in the dark...
I played killers like Huntress, Billy, Oni, Demogorgon... Dark Lord and going Awoooooo doesn't get old...
The problem each time was Survivors had a tendency to 3 gen themselves. I wasn't trying to defend a 3 gen, but generally I found in each case I had to just run around the gens trying to find survivors, and that seemed to often result in a tight 3 gen... I guess because the central gens are something you naturally patrol more often.
As survivor I've usually done quite well... mostly cause I often try to break the central gens I wpuld guess, and I suppose whereas in regular DBD I'm often found firdt hen trying to do that, in Light's Out I've often slipped by unnoticed...
I've had fun with the mode, haven't played a huge amount, but if going in with the mindset to try and make it spoopy/have fun it's more enjoyable than playing it really trying to win.
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That's honestly what I do as a Ghostface Main, the mode IS very easy for him and I won't deny that, so I have been being pretty damn nice and even letting people go.
I genuinely want to spook people so I'm playing the Stealth Killers I love because extra spooky, I don't see an issue with them having better stealth than normal because of that.
Ghostface is good because he can just swivel into the darkness with his power until someone's icon starts lighting up, and he can find people when he shouldn't be able to.
He can literally always do that. On every dark or indoor map. The info from being Revealed is part of his power, always has been, and a good Ghostface can use that outside the mode too - or is just never caught because they run Shroud cooldown addons. This point is moot.
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Reasons (IMO):
- Lots of players playing killers that track easily. Tracking is too strong in this game mode and goes against the whole idea of playing in the dark. Legion, Myers, etc.
- Not seeing where you're going is not fun. Especially against Dredge.
- Dredge players. Don't really gotta expand on this.
- Everything hidden on UI, no indication of anything. Not even EGC timer. Awful decision.
- Certain killers like Sadako & Alien require you to drop your candles to interact with their TV/Turrets, which makes it pretty problematic when they find you and you have no way of knowing where you're running b/c you had to ditch your candle.
- Survivors don't know where all the gens are so 3 gening is incredibly more likely to happen. While killers get to see exactly where every gen is (they should not be able to see these gens in a LIGHTS OUT mode, IMO).
- The same BS that happens in regular solo que/quickplay but now with more disadvantages on survivor side. Why would anyone want to put themselves through that more than they need to? Grab the rewards and go back to quickplay.
- Lot of killers (almost all) can get within range of you before you know they're even around and it almost always results in a free hit, which just feels slimy b/c you have no chance of making it to a pallet or window to save yourself.
Just a few reasons off the top of my head.
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Of course Ghostface can always do that. I've done that plenty of times. But it rarely matters in normal DBD. It's a neat bonus if there's a bunch of fog offerings or the survivors have blendy outfits and aren't moving, but for the most part… I can use my eyes and just see people.
In a mode where you can only see an arm's length in front of you, the ability to locate people that do not have a solid obstacle between you and them, but you did not actually see, becomes a lot more important.
I don't know how to emphasize more that in a mode where the point is that you can't see anything, and is balanced around not being able to see anything, having a power that ignores the darkness and goes "hey someone's over there" is really strong. It is not a moot point when everyone is picking him for that reason.
Legion's power has to find someone first before they can find anyone else. Doctor and Artist alert you that the killer knows where you are. Ghostface and Myers can find you from afar without you knowing anything about it.
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In other news, the difficult game mode is difficult, and not for anyone who doesn't want the challenge of it. Though I agree Dredge shouldn't be allowed in Lights Out. No Killer that seriously alters the game arena like that should. If Freddy is a problem in the mode, then so is Dredge.
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I'm not even sure why we're really arguing this. What incentive does anyone have to not pick Killers that can't track well? Why wouldn't people pick Killers that help them track in this mode? The Devs even actively encouraged it with the first reveal of Lights Out in February, the Killer played as the Legion.
As you point out here, Killers being stronger if they have basekit tracking in this mode is intentional. Candelabras also provide basekit tracking for Survivors. There is no imbalance, there is no issue anymore. Use the candelabras.
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Not the problem at all. Inconsistency/unfairness factor is. And that takes away the fun, even when you do escape. Doesn't feel rewarding.
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Survivors during Lights Out
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The point of the mode is it's harder for Survivor and even a bit unfair.
Some people want that challenge. You clearly do not. So don't play the mode, then. It's over in two days anyway.
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You just said it yourself, its unfair. The point stands. It has nothing to do with difficulty, if it was fair for both sides, people would still play it. It is not fun b/c it is not fair. 1 side has a lot more going for it (just like in 1.0). And yes, ofc some people still play it. I never said not to. I'm listing reasons why a lot of people probably aren't playing it, thats all.
I'd rather get a real challenge in solo que where things are a bit more tolerable, instead of playing a game mode where killer reigns supreme majority of the time due to the game mode.
And don't worry, I won't play this game mode. B/c again, its bad and unfair/inconsistent.
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"Oh no! The hard mode is hard and I don't enjoy hard things."
Then do not play it. Problem solved. Nobody has a gun to your head, dude.
There is no real challenge in SoloQ when four slowdown Nurse exists.
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Are you OK dude? Seems you just want to argue or attack.
I answered the OP's question and you came in here like a hothead. If your reading comprehension is this bad, I guess go with your rationale.
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I'm arguing because you seem to be in denial that your favorite killer fundamentally breaks this mode and that what he can do is neither balanced nor healthy. Dredge is even more of an issue than he is, but imo, if they don't ditch Lights Out completely, he and Myers are second in line for oversight in this mode. When a handful of killers are so meta nobody will play anything else, you have a very clear game design problem. I mean. Lights Out is a problem because many people don't find it fun anyway, but the best killers for it all bypass the thing that's supposed to balance out the survivors being blind and lost. (Or they're Dredge, who makes the blind and lost part worse.)
Like… if you had a game mode that everyone was half running speed, Slow Mode, everyone would play Nurse or Hag, with a few sprinkled Singularities and Billies and Knights. And that's not because it's Nurse and Hag's time to shine, it's because their power breaks the idea of the mode and they aren't that affected by the drawback while that same drawback still penalizes their opponents.
Candelabras aren't an equivalent? Candelabras don't tell me where the killer is. They tell the killer where I am. I can use one to check that most of the other survivors are also running around lost and only one person has found a gen, but carrying them around is one of the worst decisions a survivor can make. Best thing you can do is put it on a gen, or put it behind a wall so the killer will waste time investigating.
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I agree! It is really fun.
So I will keep playing, and you can go play in the sweatlord regular mode with everyone else. Deal? :)
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I am not in denial and no he doesn't break the mode. Does Nurse break normal DBD?
Allow Killers not normally overpowered to have one mode thye can be powerful in, you don't like it? Choose any of the other Killers in the mode, or end yourself on hook, or don't play the mode. Modes aren't even supposed to BE balanced, everyone said the same thing about the other modes being unbalanced, why are we all crying about this one? It's actually pathetic.
A Killer being strong in a mode does not mean that Killer is broken. It's not an oversight, the devs intended it. End of. I will not be entertaining any further discussion from the peanut gallery on this.
Yes, all of you are wrong, here. All of you.
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To each their own I guess 🤷♂️
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I really don't think the game mode would work. I'm a killer main and even I think lights out is easier as survivor, that's why I played survivor to do the tome. Survivor mains are very difficult to please these days, like you say even with the extra buffs for survivors this time round still isn't good enough and I don't think anything will ever be good enough for a lot of people. Just seems to be the way it is, no matter what buffs survivors get or nerfs killers get survivors are never satisfied lol
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Hot take: I think they need to take off the Lights out modifier from rotation and scrap that gamemode.
This mode is fun for a first time\couple of matches, then becomes frustrating.
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