The second iteration of 2v8 is now LIVE - find out more information here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/480-2v8-developer-update

Distortion Is Fine

13»

Comments

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,025

    Because the singular killer with 4 perk slots used one of those 4 to get that info?

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 314
    edited October 30

    Ok and survivors who used hope or adrenaline used perk slot for perks that may not even be used cause they dont make it end game so they used a perk slot for nothing?

    Or a survivor brings a full heal build and its negated by a plague so 0 perks.

    We use a perk slot to bring distortion to block that free info and if by some chance killer has 0 aura then we wasted a perk slot.

    Killer has lightborn and I have flashbang so now I wasted a perk slot. Its the same concept.

    Post edited by buggybug on
  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,385

    The crucial distinction here is that Shadow Step is primarily an aura block and scratch marks perk, and OTR is primarily an anti-tunnel perk. Shadow Step still had a niche for hiding scratch marks, but that alone doesn't make a complete perk

    There's multiple perks where the only benefit is hiding scratch marks, such as Dance With Me, Lucky Break and Parental Guidance. Scratch mark erasure is a full-fledged perk effect, and it is actually a good chunk of Shadow Step's value. So similar to how OTR has another benefit, and it does aura blocking on the side, Shadow Step hides scratch marks, and does aura blocking on the side. So this idea that Shadow Step is somehow much more of an aura blocking perk than OTR is not really true.

    Next you talk about pickrate, which I'll glide past because it isn't relevant here. I don't care if people DO pick each perk equally, I care if they COULD. Design space, not popularity.

    But how are you going to make any kind of argument about whether someone -could- pick another perk if you refuse to look at whether they did, or why they made the choices they made?

    You skip past everything to immediately declare Distortion the problem when the pick rates suggest that

    A) It is entirely possible to have other aura reading perks that are viable and able to compete with it, since OTR matched its pick rate

    and

    B) There is no correlation between the buff or pickrate of Distortion and the pickrate of Shadow Step.

    Point A suggests that Distortion is not oppressive in that regard, and point B says there's no evidence to suggest that Distortion was the cause of Shadow Step's poor performance.

    If your argument is about whether someone -could- pick a perk, then your argument is ultimately about pick-rate. Because barring emergency disables due to bugs, every perk -can- be picked. Even Weaving Spiders and No Mither -could- be picked!

    What we actuallyneed from aura blocking perks, new or existing, is the same thing we need from all perks - they need some kind of restriction, downside, or narrow scope in what they effect. Something that just does the job universally with no downsides is only acceptable if the job is particularly narrow in scope, which aura blocking is not.

    Who says it isn't?

    Reminder that Botany Knowledge exists, which is an entirely unconditional perk that simply gives a fat boost to altruistic healing speed. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. There's zero chance you're going to get through a regular match without having a use for healing speed, but there's a very real chance you get through a game without ever having your aura read because the system isn't basekit and is dependent on the killer's loadout.

    I think we can all agree that Botany Knowledge is not a problem perk, and we can also all agree that healing is much wider in scope than aura blocking. So why would this argument fly for Distortion?

    People already only pick a handful of perks and ignore perfectly viable ones

    A large chunk of survivor perks aren't viable, specifically because they are being buried under restrictions, downsides and narrow scope.

    For Distortion being questionably balanced, no, I don't have data. I have reasons and explanations, though, which are just as important from BHVR's perspective and the only important things from our perspective as players having a debate.

    I think the data is quite important too, so you don't end up nerfing underperforming options without cause. But also, these 'reasons and explanations' are really only accepted from one particular group, aren't they?

    We're on a more salient point that probably should've been raised earlier with the assertion that aura reading is too oppressive, but I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Certainly if there were no tools for defending against it, the number of aura perks in the game would probably be too high even if most of the individual perks are well balanced, but there are tools to defend against it - both in the sense that you can stop your aura being read entirely, and in the sense that you can react afterwards. In the latter case, there's hiding after being revealed if you know it happened (not universally applicable, but a good few perks have tells), or just being in an undesirable position to chase. Players have options, they just still actually have to deal with their opponent's tools, which is pretty reasonable.

    Similarly, killers could be expected to locate survivors by ordinary means, such as crows, sound, and game sense. So it's not like Distortion was somehow impossible to circumvent. In reality, all Distortion did was reset the playing field. Which was necessary, because aura reading crept up and began to eliminate the possibility of hiding from the game. NTH is probably one of the worst offenders, as it kind of spells out in the title.

    Finally, for the second to last point - as I covered the final point a bit more in detail above - you're falling into the trap of assuming that stats trump all when it comes to balance changes. They don't. Something can absolutely warrant changing without hitting an excess of pickrate or escape rate, and that's happened multiple times in the past. There's so much more that goes into balancing a live service game than a linear scale of too strong or too weak.

    But this is kind of where 'one particular group' comes into play. There's a power creep of aura reading, it's axing an entire aspect of gameplay, then a perk that is designed specifically to counter that and to re-enable that aspect of gameplay comes into full swing, it does not get an excessive pick or win rate, it just exists…

    But the 'reasons and explanations' from one particular group are enough to kneecap the counterweight.

    Distortion's nerf was unreasonable. There would have been many other ways to deal with it, this was one of the worst. The perk is not in a good state at the moment.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,025

    For those first 2 yup and do you know why? The first wasn't countered by a single perk. That first one was for whatever reason the survivor in question didn't make it to end game.

    That second one is countered by a very specific power. Said power turns healing into its own game of "pick your poison". Anything related to healing on both sides plays by changes in rules (admittedly more towards survivors).

    For that 3rd there's more of a point but that's the same gamble killers run in the vein of killer runs lightborn and survivors don't even try to blind then it's wasted. You also get the info that the killer isn't running aura just like killer doesn't have to fear blinds.

    And lastly all we did was answer the single question you asked. Where'd this all come from?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,808

    Okay, so, couple things I want to clarify. These aren't necessarily tied one to one with the order of your points, but I'll still number them for ease of reading.

    1: First, the pickrate issue. So, there are a hundred things that go into a perk's pickrate which aren't necessarily the perk's strength or design space, and plenty of good perks don't get picked for a variety of reasons. These aren't always even the perk's restrictions- sometimes perks are less played because they're part of less popular chapters and fewer people actually own them, or because they started out bad and never lost the reputation.

    What I want here, what I'm saying is good in this specific scenario, is for a player who isn't being swayed by any external influences to look at the available perks and have good reason to potentially pick any of them, depending on what exactly they want. That doesn't mean an equal number of players will pick different perks, one is probably going to end up picked more often because players love to optimise and follow trends (and separately most players aren't actually interested in crafting builds + evaluating perks neutrally, they just slap on whatever seems strongest), but that each perk could be used.

    There are two things that might stand in the way of a perk fitting this criteria, and it's lucky we're talking about aura blocking because both of them have applied in the past. The first is the perk just flat out not being good enough to warrant picking over its competition. For aura blocking, that's Sole Survivor. That perk does see some use, there are people in this thread arguing in favour of it, but it's just fundamentally less accessible and impactful than the competition.

    The second reason is if the perk itself is fine, but it's heavily outclassed by something that does too much. That's where Shadow Step was, and why Off The Record was never picked for its aura blocking effects. Now that Distortion is no longer flawless, they all - except for Sole Survivor - have viable niches. Before, you'd only be evaluating them on their secondary effects because Distortion made their aura blocking obsolete, and that's why a lot of people think Shadow Step is bad when it really isn't.

    One of those niches is probably going to be the most popular one. Right now, it's probably going to be OTR, assuming the drama doesn't pass and everyone just quietly puts Distortion back into their builds. That's fine. As long as an unbiased player can look at all the perks and think "yeah, I could use any of these depending on my build", that's a perfectly acceptable spot. Pickrate has absolutely nothing to do with this because pickrate does not inherently reflect the situation I'm talking about.

    2: Next I want to talk about Botany Knowledge, because it's a reasonably good example of what I'm talking about in this regard!

    So, what does Botany do? Fundamentally, it exists to increase your healing speed. That's pretty broad, so are there any restrictions and conditions that go on this effect?

    Yes! There's objectively one, and I'd argue there's sort of a second.

    The first, objective restriction is that it decreases your efficiency on medkits. This is a meaningful downside that exists to stop the perk from getting out of hand, which is especially true when we remember that it was given this restriction while medkits themselves were massively overtuned, and Botany itself increased your efficiency on medkits. That's a restriction and condition that goes on the broad effect.

    The second one, the more arguable one, is the percentage of healing speed. 50% is high, but it's not the highest in the game- and the highest healing speeds in the game right now go on perks with more restrictions and conditions, like We'll Make It and Circle of Healing. We can see from this that limiting the effectiveness of the perk is a form of condition and restriction that can be used to balance something broad. This is easier to see in something percentage based like Botany, but Distortion's stacks actually being meaningful now is another example of that.

    Don't get me wrong, Botany Knowledge is not restricted by very much and that's why it's one of the best survivor perks in the game, but your example of an unrestricted, unconditional effect actually does have restrictions and conditions.

    3: I suppose the last thing I should mention is to repeat that the supposed power creep of aura reading is not axing stealth as a tactic, because there are tools that counter it.

    It's also worth mentioning that aura reading isn't thaaaaaaat popular? The last official stats we got from February only have two aura reading perks in the top ten, both of which Distortion comfortably counter and one of which you don't even need to use tokens on once you know it's in place - that being Lethal Pursuer and BBQ and Chili. While we shouldn't be citing Nightlight with the same weight as the official stats, looking over there just adds Nowhere To Hide into the top ten, which once again is a perk that Distortion can counter + you can start countering without using tokens once you know about it. That perk is a little overtuned, though, nerfing that would be entirely appropriate.

    There's always a risk you'll run into other perks, of course, you might get caught out by any number of things you decided not to build against - I always seem to run into hex builds only when I take off my totem perks, personally - but it's hardly an overbearing and oppressive presence in every single match.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,385

    1: First, the pickrate issue.

    Just gonna snip the quote for brevity and because I can't be bothered with whatever the forums are doing with formatting these days. Quote-pasting has been a mess lately.

    Anyway, I understand that you don't want to cling too heavily to pickrates and that's fine, you are right in saying that these are far more complex than a simple figure. But when you want to come in and argue that an unbiased player needs to be able to compare these options and reasonably consider either one, the pickrate does come into play here. Because the issue you are presenting here should logically resolve into extremely lopsided pick rates.

    If we do not have such data, then the problem you run into is that… It's just wild conjecture.

    So when you posit the theory that Shadow Step is not getting picked because Distortion is that high, and others posit that it's not getting picked because it's just plain bad, well…

    Considering its pickrate was dumpstered at a time where Distortion was worse than it is now, after the nerf, my money's on theory B.

    2: Next I want to talk about Botany Knowledge

    But then you get into the issue of what you consider to be a restriction. Because to my mind, there's something that both Shadow Step and OTR have over Distortion that makes the both of them less restrictive than Distortion, and that's that both of them are always going to be functional.

    Distortion already had a heavy drawback/restriction in that it could not fire without aura reading being present. If the killer didn't bring any, the perk is dead. That's another reason I think that Distortion did not warrant any nerf, it's a gamble the survivors take, and its competition, even if two of those three options are terrible, do not share this drawback.

    That also leaves plenty of design space to make other perks that grant additional benefits -on top of- blocking aura reading, which could easily have become competitive with Distortion. But now any perk that tries to do such a thing must ensure its aura blocking is considerably worse than Distortion, which is now much harder to achieve considering Distortion's lowered limits.

    3: I suppose the last thing I should mention is to repeat that the supposed power creep of aura reading is notaxing stealth as a tactic, because there are tools that counter it.

    However, the tools we have are OTR (Blocks for a total of 160 seconds max), Distortion (Likely only blocks 5 instances), and Shadow Step (Heavy investment, inert, internally incompetent since hiding your aura indirectly also tells the killer where you are). These aren't strong picks, but without them, there's huge risk involved with attempting to play on stealth. You can't take safe paths, because those are predictable, so you're more likely to end up in dangerous spots. This is a gamble, and one that has a bad cost if it doesn't pan out.

    Which would be fine, if an NTH or FoR pop wouldn't effectively give the killer a free hit.

    The balance of this tactic is off when the killer can turn it to his advantage as a piggyback effect of normal gameplay. (And that's not mentioning the horrid design decision to buff Dance With Me and similar chase-breaker stealth perks and then making Predator eliminate those exact perks the very next patch)

    It's also worth mentioning that aura reading isn't thaaaaaaat popular?

    Which would exacerbate Distortion's flaw. It just gives more reason to pick something that is more consistently useful overall.

    I just don't agree with this assertion that people would look at Distortion and Shadow Step, side by side, and consider Shadow Step a wasted slot because of Distortion. I think a far more likely scenario is that they use both, come to the conclusion that Distortion often doesn't pull any weight because there's no aura reading, but then they come to the conclusion that Shadow Step also isn't pulling any weight anyway.

    I legitimately tried to use that thing, and I had to give it up because it was just not doing enough. It's basically in the same class as my Dumpster Diver David build ("My kingdom for a shirt!"): It's funny, but it ain't winning you any matches. Granted, I didn't pick up Distortion either, but the reason I dropped Shadow Step had nothing to do with Distortion. So I don't agree with the assertion that Distortion was an obstruction in design space.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,808

    Couple things:

    1: Why would pickrate go up based on this? The average player is not unbiased, they're heavily biased, and that's okay. It's not that pickrates have diminished relevance, it's that they have none, at all.

    What I want to see in general, and what I think we're a lot closer to with Distortion, is for the perks to be considered all viable if someone whose biases don't conflict with them is evaluating. There's absolutely no reason to assume that necessarily should be a high enough percentage of players to change pickrates, especially considering the observable bias against anything that's been nerfed recently nine times out of ten. There were people claiming Adrenaline was useless after it was nerfed, people are not neutral, rational actors only approaching perks based on how good they actually are. The "unbiased player" I invoked is a hypothetical, a way of conceptualising perks and their balance without falling into the traps of downplaying, common misconceptions, whatever. It's subjective but it obviously has to be, all game balance is necessarily partially subjective otherwise you're balancing just based on stats.

    That's why I'm not claiming anything surrounding pickrate. I don't care about it, we can't meaningfully sway it with this kind of change unless they're very heavy handed changes. Shadow Step isn't picked for a million different reasons and only one of them will, sometimes, occasionally, be the fact that Distortion outclassed it. Balance necessarily must be considered as a separate thing to common perception.

    2: While Distortion may have a chance to not activate, it's still obviously possible for something to be overtuned even with the restriction that it won't automatically activate.

    If, say, Unbreakable healed you to full multiple times a match and also gave you a permanent +100% repair speed boost for every time you pick yourself up, it would obviously be way overtuned even considering that there's a very real chance the killer will never slug you and therefore you may never get to use it.

    The fact that it isn't guaranteed is why Distortion is allowed to still be good and effective, but it being perfect is still overtuned. As long as it still blocks auras in at least reliable niches, which it does right now, the extra restrictions are not only okay, they're appropriate.

    Also worth mentioning that Botany has become completely irrelevant to this conversation all of a sudden.

    3: We're circling around the same fundamental disagreement here, but those are strong picks in their respective niches.

    Part of the issue here is a general unwillingness, from everyone and not just you, to consider what auras you want to block. None of them are 100% effective against all forms of aura reading and that's completely okay, it's appropriate even. When you think about wanting to play stealthy, you now actually have to think about which perks you think are most damaging to your gameplan and then pick your counterpick respective to that. You don't even need to be going for active stealth to be thinking about that, frankly.

    I don't expect that to change, obviously. Most players don't want to think about things at all, and that's okay. It just also doesn't translate to the changes actually being bad because the old thing doesn't work exactly the same anymore.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,385

    1: Why would pickrate go up based on this? The average player is not unbiased, they're heavily biased, and that's okay. It's not that pickrates have diminished relevance, it's that they have none, at all.

    It's one thing to claim they have diminished relevance, it's another entirely to dismiss them outright. The rest of your point basically confirms that… You don't really have a point. It's just wild conjecture apropos of nothing.

    That's why I'm not claiming anything surrounding pickrate. I don't care about it

    Having to argue that the entire community is one big sheep collective is a rough position to have to take, but you still have to contend with the fact that Shadow Step, again, was judged poorly before any of the comparison you're worried about came in. Even when Distortion was considered bottom-of-the-barrel, Shadow Step wasn't considered to be worth a perk slot. Its current state IS the product of unbiased observation. It was judged fresh, on its own merits, upon its release, and hasn't moved the needle since.

    Shadow Step isn't picked for a million different reasons and only one of them will, sometimes, occasionally, be the fact that Distortion outclassed it.

    And at this point, it sounds like the nerf to Distortion did nothing to create this 'design space' you were talking about.

    If your theory requires you to presuppose that the entire community is incapable of independent thought, and then you have to backtrack and diminish the impact you're describing to 'well, the thought might cross a player's mind once in a million times', I think it's time to let go of the theory.

    Balance necessarily must be considered as a separate thing to common perception.

    But this isn't so much 'separate to common perception' as it is 'divorced from reality', at this point. And 'it's one of a million reasons that -may- have influenced someone to pick Distortion instead of Shadow Step' certainly isn't a worthwhile 'balance' consideration.

    2: While Distortion may have a chance to not activate, it's still obviously possible for something to be overtuned even with the restriction that it won't automatically activate.

    Yes, and if it actually was showing any of the issues you have complained about, you'd have a point, but it didn't. It wasn't oppressively overpicked, it wasn't oppressively overperforming, it wasn't oppressing the design space, it was a perfectly okay perk.

    It has to have -something- in which it was overperforming to warrant a nerf, but it didn't. The closest you came is saying that it was pushing down Shadow Step and you've already had to walk that back to 'maybe someone, somewhere, sometime'.

    Part of the issue here is a general unwillingness, from everyone and not just you, to consider what auras you want to block. When you think about wanting to play stealthy, you now actually have to think about which perks you think are most damaging to your gameplan and then pick your counterpick respective to that. You don't even need to be going for active stealth to be thinking about that, frankly.

    This is just gassing up a point of no substance. Outside of Lethal, all aura blocking perks block the same perks, they just have different restrictions in how they do so. One is restricted by space, the other by tokens, the third by time. No one is going to realistically, meticulously flowchart out how likely each perk is to block each aura because there's not sufficiently significant distinction to warrant it. Especially since the biggest offenders in the aura reading category realistically do not care which aura blocker you are picking up.

    And honestly, if you're going to bank your dismissal of pickrates on the idea that the community is roughly incapable of independent thought, you can't then turn around and uphold this as a virtue of the Distortion kneecapping. Either the community is carefully researching such minute distinctions, or they don't care about the actual objective value of perks. It's one or the other.

  • CleanseThis
    CleanseThis Member Posts: 155

    You do understand that if for example I kick a gen with Nowhere to hide and a survivor behind a jungle gym has distortion that I cant see them right?

    You mean a perk that's one-time use unless paired with another aura reading perk which in turn only gives you an additional 2 seconds?

    Im assuming your of the opinion that at the end of the match where the last 2 survivors are playing hide and seek holding the game hostage is cool because you know I can just look for them forever?

  • Autharia
    Autharia Member Posts: 358

    I also don't thing jester realizes Distortion only does 1 thing so it should be better then the others in that aspect that have other aspects to them like hiding scratch marks/anti-tunnel/fast escape.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 314
    edited October 31

    Yes all killer aura read needs pain res treatment and all aura rwading add ons is reworked

    Well my friend the thing is that these pity topics are annoying, like the rub it in your face feeling, I am probably being petty or something but I notice iron will(before its buff back to 100) coh, mft adrenaline and now distortion has its still goofrub it in the your face post and yet we know its false unlike nerf killer perks thats actually still good and meta

    Ruin,ultimate weapon, eruption, call of brine, and overcharge are all still good just not op.

    Last time I saw any of the mention survivor perks cept iron will since its decent now has been months. Distortion since its nerf seen 0 of them on both sides all month.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,808

    To clarify: Not only do I understand that, I've been arguing from that perspective this entire time.

    Distortion does need to be better than OTR at aura blocking because that's all it does. It also needs to be slightly better, or at least more accessible, than Shadow Step because while Shadow Step is another aura blocking perk primarily (split between that and scratch marks being blocked), it has its secondary effect active no matter what. It should probably be about comparable to Sole Survivor, but it isn't and that's Sole Survivor's fault so that isn't too relevant here.

    This is about the fourth time I've acknowledged that, and about the fourth time I've pointed out that it is. It's just got some gaps, which the other perks (except SS, yadda yadda) could now be considered more appealing for if those gaps are all that the player cares about.

    The debate always comes back, it seems, to pointing out that aura perks are not universal and you should probably consider what you want to block before you bring a perk. Lethal and BBQ, as you mention, is a perfectly appropriate combo for Distortion to block- you block Lethal at the start, you're probably hit by the first BBQ, but the second is blocked by Distortion and now you know to avoid it without tokens. Distortion at worst is faltering at a single aura read and it's perfectly okay to sometimes be seen by the killer.

    Another set of perks that would be appropriate to bring Distortion against would be things like I'm All Ears, Predator, and Zanshin Tactics, especially if you want to break chase. Distortion shines in this niche too.

    What Distortion's weaker at is keeping you safe from auras consistently while performing an action, like generator repair or healing. That's a niche that Shadow Step fills, though, so if you find yourself wanting that most, you have an option there too. Distortion is the best overall, the others are specialist perks that can cover some of Distortion's gaps at the cost of being less consistent overall. This is perfectly acceptable as an outcome.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,808

    All of those perks are good, on both sides.

    Well, except Overcharge. This may be unpopular as an opinion but I feel like Overcharge has never actually been good itself, it just really benefited from specific synergies in the past. It kinda still has those, but… eh. Maybe I'm just biased there.

    MFT also deserves an asterisk because now it's way more niche than it used to be, but if you actively pursue that niche, it is still pretty good.

    If anyone were to claim the survivor perks you listed are still good but the killer ones aren't, I'd consider that evidence of a bias. At the very least, I'd firmly disagree with them. Those perks are at least decent, on both sides.

  • PreorderBonus
    PreorderBonus Member Posts: 318

    The Distortion change wasn’t just good, it should serve as a blueprint for how to nerf perks without completely destroying them, something BHVR has yet to master with gen regression perks. Distortion remains fully usable, but now, instead of hiding, players need to actively engage with the killer. A teammate who wastes 15 seconds of the killer’s time is worth twice as much as one who just crouches and plays passively when they’re out of Distortion stacks.

    Not only is Distortion still a strong perk, but the value it provides is incredible. Knowing that the killer isn’t running Lethal Pursuer, BBQ, or Nowhere to Hide is just as valuable as knowing they are using those perks. Acting like Distortion is dead is ridiculous.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,808
    edited October 31

    So, I've sat with this for a bit to make sure my response is appropriate, and I've come to the conclusion that we've both accidentally started circling around an argument that we didn't start with and neither of us actually hold, which is that the nerf to Distortion was necessary because Shadow Step has a low pickrate. That isn't my position, so I'm going to scale back and clarify from square one.

    Distortion was nerfed. This is our starting point; I'm not saying it was necessary or unnecessary, just that it happened, and we now have a different version of Distortion to the one we had before.

    My position is, after thinking about it and testing it myself, that Distortion is fine. It fundamentally does its job as an aura blocking tool, but it now has gaps to stop it being completely flawless. I think this is appropriate because Distortion was very passive, making its lack of restrictions or conditions kind of questionable. I initially pitched a way of making it less passive myself, and I still think that'd probably be better, but the version we have is hardly a dead perk. It's totally useable and even still quite strong depending on the use case.

    Something I think is a nice benefit from the way Distortion was nerfed is that its specific gaps now can be covered by other perks, like Shadow Step. I think it's overall good for the game that these perks are now operating in tandem with one another rather than one invalidating the other, because there truly was no reason to ever consider Shadow Step's aura blocking when Distortion was it, but better.

    Now, depending on what aura perks you're most concerned with, the three perks (really two, but you might only care about the auras that could be used to tunnel or that would stop you resetting in peace, so OTR is in the discussion) could all be considered the best pick. In most situations it's still Distortion, because it's the most consistent and passive, but Shadow Step covers a gap that Distortion has (being more vulnerable to aura reads that happen while you're just off doing a generator or something, since you've not interacted with the killer to build another token), making it plausible to pick in that context if that's what you want.

    That's why pickrate has nothing to do with this, there are so many other factors affecting pickrate that to expect this single one to actually move the needle is unreasonable. It also doesn't mean that, before the nerf, Distortion needed to be changed because of Shadow Step. That's just a nice benefit that we get after the fact because of the specific choices BHVR made.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,673

    I'm not wanting to argue if the nerf was warranted, etc. I'd like to discuss this here, and only for perspective understanding reasons.

    To clarify: Not only do I understand that, I've been arguing from that perspective this entire time.

    Distortion does need to be better than OTR at aura blocking because that's all it does.

    To say the former statement and then followed up by the latter, this is why I don't believe you really understand, or perhaps misunderstand? All in respect, mind you. <3

    I feel Jester doesn't understand the point that, since Distortion ONLY blocks auras, it should do so in a way that outshines the other perks that block auras 'as a side note'. Currently, it doesn't.

    Distortion isn't outshining any other perk of the ones you listed as viable. This is my own opinion. I feel Distortion is competing with them on equal terms, and that is not good, and is not alright. Again, Distortion needs to be the best choice for aura blocking if aura blocking is all you care about in a perk. This is not me saying it needs to be old Distortion, it is me saying current iteration has not worked for me personally, and does not perform better than the alternatives, but more equally. So I cannot agree with your niche scenarios and even viable alternatives, and this is okay! Old Distortion

    I'd like to get your thoughts on the following, because it might help myself understand your viewpoint better.

    In a [insert whatever number you feel worthy] sample size of games where OtR and Distortion are used in the exact same game, would you agree there will be times when OtR aura blocking outshines Distortion if used in the same instance?

    If yes, how big of a discrepancy? If no, uhh.. well, we might have a new topic later lol.

    My guess is you agree there would be times. It's the ratio I'm curious about. I believe it would be close to 60/40 to 40/60 range, with both perks competing pretty neck and neck. This is if we assume full duration of OtR, which we know doesn't happen usually. I hope not anyway lol.

    If this is used as a counter point, I'd argue the task of keeping tokens on Distortion without getting hooked too often is pretty difficult for the average player.

    Anyway! Thank you for reading and I really want to understand this view a bit more.



  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,808

    Interesting question, I think it's hard to answer without more context, though.

    Mostly, what instance are we talking about? Distortion and OTR both occupy the same space as aura blocking perks, but they shine in different niches within that space. For example, if all the killer has is Lethal and BBQ, I think it's generally unlikely for OTR to outshine Distortion. OTR just doesn't do anything against Lethal at the start of the match, and Distortion provides enough information that you can avoid procs of BBQ without even spending a token on it.

    Conversely, if the killer's inclined to try and hunt down injured survivors who have been unhooked recently (but aren't immediately there at the unhook), OTR is a little more consistent because of its combined Iron Will and aura blocking effects. Similarly, OTR will allow you a window of time after an unhook to avoid incidental aura reading while you're doing gens and such, but is much less reliable overall if all you want is aura blocking- Distortion is a little more reliable in that niche, and Shadow Step is considerably more reliable in that niche.

    I don't think it really boils down to ratio at all, because the perks should ideally be shining in different niches. One instance of aura reading should, hypothetically, be more vulnerable to one perk over the other depending on what that instance actually is. Is it round start Lethal? Distortion outshines OTR handily. Is it I'm All Ears mid-chase? The two are closer, but Distortion is still more likely to be active and far more likely to be active earlier in the match on top of having a more beneficial secondary effect to that instance.

    It's more effective and realistic to consider the perks as counter-picks to specific killer tools, rather than percentage ratios of generic aura blocking.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 314
    edited October 31

    Why am I sensing a fear that because no one wanna use the now worthless distortion, its making people fear that the aura rampage perks and adds on may get hit next for gutting. I mean at least now its one less meta that killers complain about survivor meta.

    Its as if strangely now people wants survivors to use distortion to not let that fear of my aura perks and add ons gonna be nerfed, but no dont fall for this fellow survivors dont run trashtortion so that we can try get all these aura read perks and add ons trashed. We need to continue threads to nerf them just like the 1 mil nerf distortion threads .

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,808

    Man, that's some really conspiratorial thinking, I don't think that's healthy.

    People aren't out here conniving to stop nerfs to their side by lying about something. I just sincerely think Distortion is still pretty good.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,025

    Shh let the conspiracy continue.

    Think about it, everything's nerfed to the point of detrimental, then no one runs perks period. It's a perfect hunting ground for us~ not necessarily anyone else but they dug their own graves so who's we to stop them?

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 314

    I understand and I respect your opinion. Let me ask this for fun, lets say all aura add ons is gone and all aura killer perks only gets 4 uses( the pain res treatment.)

    I make a statement your aura reading perks are still good just not 24/7 free anymore how would that make you think or feel?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,808

    I'd disagree with that, certainly. That wouldn't be appropriate.

    It also wouldn't be appropriate to add a token system to, say, Exhaustion perks, or something like Botany Knowledge. Nerfing perks isn't always appropriate, and the end result wouldn't always be okay. Distortion is fine after the change it received, the other perks you or I mentioned wouldn't be if they received comparable changes.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,673

    Thank you. I understand where you are on your hill. Just a bit steep for me to climb. Agree to disagree and thats okay :)