survivors are using the miniscule mori update as a scapegoat
i keep seeing nonstop posts about this, but its just a placebo. killers were slugging for the 4k waaaayyyy before this change.
i hate to say it, but it truly is a skill issue. most players are bad, especially survivors, it takes about 8 minutes for 1 gen to pop, and they cant loop at all.
but against stronger survivors a generator pops within 45 - 50 seconds, and thats not an exaggeration.
the game needs to do a better job of teaching survivors how to survive better, without resorting to outside media.
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Exactly, slugging for the 4K existed long before this and would be happening even if this mori update never happened. But they'd rather whine and cry in this forum and blame the meanie Killers who wsnt to win, and yes if a Killer considers getting a 4K a win that is as valid as a Killer who is fine with a 3K or hatch escape
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I've seen several posts like this lately, but I think there are actually players experiencing negative impacts on their experience in the game as a result of the update.
The finisher mori gives a reward for getting to a 4k, and doesn't care about the methods used to get it. Personally, my matches recently have had a much higher incidence of multiple negative playstyles in the time since the update. I've seen much more tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k, to such an extent that I'm finding it less rewarding to play the game now and have found myself having days when I don't even feel like playing a match.
My suspicion is that not everyone is coming here and making things up. I really enjoy the game and would like to see the experience stay good, but so far recently whenever I play a few survivor matches, I usually wonder why I started up the game.
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silly argument.
No one said it didn’t exist before, they said it happens more often.
and the reason killers get significant benefits in both perks, powers addons and Basel it is because most killers are bad and the game is built to ensure killers succeed more. So to make up for how bad killers are they get every boost going.slugging for 4k is a failed skill check. If you can’t win without slugging that’s a killer problem because it is so easy to get a 4k without trying. (I play 70% as killer btw)
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Please explain how survivors are to "get better" while being tunneled off the hook or crawling on the ground at 4-5 gens????
While yes I have learned to loop better but the fate at getting killed is just increased.
Your argument isn't invalid as slugging for the 4k has always existed, but now there is a greater incentive.
Slug and seek is stronger than before
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Hard agree honestly. Finisher mori doesn't really provide anything new to the killer experience, and I haven't at all felt like more killers are playing nasty because they want to see the animation. It just feels like people see that it will trigger in the event someone does slug for the 4k, and then for some reason blame it instead of slugging even though the killer could do literally the exact same thing before Finisher Mori was introduced.
Like, there is no killer out there with over 50 hours who is going well out of their to see that animation after its probably played before their eyes countless times by that point, and in the event they couldn't kill you Basekit, you'd still probably be slugged just so they could favorably toss you into their K/D ratio instead of accepting a hatch escape every now and then.
Of all the things to spend time arguing over, I'm honestly really sick of hearing about Finisher Mori. For an aesthetic idea meant mainly for match atmosphere, this whole mechanic has been a real headache.
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check this person out, they have tons of looping guides, and is truly game changing, this isnt a solution to the problem but at least you'll get better.
https://www.youtube.com/@Mr_TatorHead
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Thanks but I'm console so there is a huge gap there.
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If people actually care about the solving the slug for 4K, they would be asking for hatch changes. This is nothing other than people wanting to remove a fun thing killers got.
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Same with "I just want to go next match, so give me basekit Unbreakable". And what will it change except make match with already decided outcome even longer against killer, which want 4k really bad? Faster bleed out option seems like is more logical thing to ask, but people literally ask to make them waste even more useless time into match.
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100% fact they are simply mad they didn’t get basekit Unbreakable so they want the whole thing reverted. I’ve been playing survivor way more to study it and the amount of slugging has barely increased. Not even noticeable really besides killers awkwardly standing on top of you while they wait for the last hooked survivor to fully die because for some reason you have to wait for the full sacrifice animation to play out.
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Just like med-kits self-heal allowing for such time-efficiency to be better than a toolbox in nearly all cases where a toolbox was used due to fundamental circumstances of altruistic healing necessitating another survivor (and receiving a deserved nerf), so too does the dying state have a non-insignificant presence of lack of agency due to the fundamental circumstances of recovery pickup necessitating another survivor to pick up a dying survivor that also allows the Killer to capitalize upon to a degree that they can skip hooking entirely.
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It does not take much thinking to get into conclusion finisher mori encourages more slugging. Before 4K was not really different from 3K but now you get cool kill animation at the end which is satisfying way to end the match for killer. So survivors saying slugging is more common in their games is believeable. My small sample size is that I went in my way to slug for 4K on killer only to end the match on mori.
Now dbd is more killer sided than other asymmetrical games I played. It requires more skill from survivors and is balanced now around average killers winning most of the time. Kill rates being around 60% and soloQ survivor experience is bad. 2
Playing killer klowns this weekend was different experience it was human sided and you could even kill the clowns and it took just few seconds to fix your escape route after finding right parts. Now clown sides was still fun and I won most games but it was mostly fair.
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For some reason slugging for 4 Kills is deemed absolutely evil and bad, while rescuing last Survivor for 4 Escapes in EGC is perfectly fine. The double standard these days…
Honestly why should Killers NOT slug for 4k at first place? It contradicts with what Killer should do, 'Kill'. You can't expect every Killer to be merciful, just saying.
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Because unfortunately most survivor’s are soloq, even less swf players are 4 man swfs, and even less of those are consistent 4-man swfs who are hell bent on winning.
There should be no reason why you are expected to have 2000+ hours with 3 other players just as skilled to counter slugging and actually win.
And yes, we complained because back then the issue was told to be given a solution which was WGLF, which ironically came with the patch of moris which overall just helped with the issue rather than diffuse it..
Lmao, using the top 1% of players as a excuse to justify slugging and the like is insane, especially when the 1% still ends up losing against killers
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Because a rescue in EGC is literally almost always a blunder if the killer simply doesnt make a mistake. Alternatively its more like for the killer to get kills from EGC so im not really sure where you got your “comparison”
Because slugging just doesnt apply to the hatch, look at the person above me who literally recommended slugging at 5 gens. Slugging itself is to oppressive for the benefit it gives whilst lack of a risk, camping a slugged secures they bleed out with no way to defend themselves. And any survivor who attempts to join will join that pile
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i find kinda funny how a lot of people said that slugging for the mori made the game unplayable because every killer does that like, a few minutes after the update
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Rescuing the last survivor to get the 4 escape doesn't stop the killer from engaging with the game. Quite the opposite actually. Slugging for the 4K absolutely stops the slugged person from playing the game. You're lying on the floor like a moron waiting either to bleed out or for the last person to be found.
I'm not even saying that slugging for the 4K is "wrong", even if I find it boring as hell (even as killer I can't be bothered to slug for the 4K unless I'm doing an adept or the remaining survivors were BMing all game). I'm just saying that it is in no way comparable to rescuing a survivor for the 4-man escape.
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Killers were already slugging but now the "mask is off" and now they are just shameless about it.
Now we just have to be humped while survivor #3 dies and we have to like it
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Killers slugging the entire team from the start of the game is not due to the mori update. There's been a lot of changes over the year and killers have slowly been experiencing better outcomes slugging than using hooks.
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You'd be surprised how little in this game requires mechanical skill, especially on survivor. As someone who plays almost exclusively survivor (and who always plays on a ps4 controller) most of the improvements i've learned over the years have been strategies (lookspots, recognizing tile configurations, etc) and learning how to get extra information through deductive reasoning (which the hud update helped with massively.) The actual chase has always been my weakest spot, but I've gained a lot of mileage from things even as simple as improving routing/pathing.
Its always worth trying to improve :)
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My biggest question is why killers LIE when survivors was complaining about hook respawn happening they quickly try to shut down the complains and say oh its a good thing to have and we wont even have to slug as much or not at all no more. But me knowing its just a sack of bs lies knew that it still will happen, only gotten worst with this mori update + increase bming third person on hook and body humping fourth person.
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Finisher mori doesn't really provide anything new to the killer experience, and I haven't at all felt like more killers are playing nasty because they want to see the animation.
Im sure everyone would agree with you. Its a correct statement, but has nothing to do with the topic. Its the Survivor experience that's new with the mori, as it just upticks what was already a pita about this game: slugging for ther 4k. And the complaint is its now more frequent and killed a lot of variety that could happen in a game.
But as long as the killer experience is solid, who cares. I really dont see why it matters but its the new talking point on the forums so yay!
Of all the things to spend time arguing over, I'm honestly really sick of hearing about Finisher Mori. For an aesthetic idea meant mainly for match atmosphere, this whole mechanic has been a real headache.
Amen to that. Whether it works or not, at this point I'd rather talk about something worthwhile lol. The mori did increase slug for the 4k, but its always been and always will be, so I see this conversation kind of moot and more 'venting' when they have frustrating matches. Humans being human.
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this is 100% true and the mob of survivors won’t stop until they get what they want, Basekit Unbreakable or Basekit DS
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Both of those kind of suck… Basekit Dead Hard and basekit Sole Survivor please! lol
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People aren't complaining because of what you mentioned, of course slugging for the 4k existed before this.
The complaints are because survivors have been asking the devs for years to address slugging for the 4k, and when they finally do anything at all it's just to make the situation worse.
Let's put it in killer speak, since that seems to be the only thing that gets through on these forums. Let's say the devs gave survivors a "celebration dance" that automatically showed off the survivor team teabagging in an unavoidable, unskippable cutscene for all players. But to activate it, they had to complete 3 gens in the first 60 seconds of the game.
People would complain about gen rushing. Not that gen rushing doesn't exist, or hasn't existed, but why would you incentivize people to do it when the biggest complaints are to remove it?
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Does this strike the killer groups as problematic? Is there any desire to get hooks appealing again? Are killers fine with 'slug > hooks?'
I would assume not. The game is not fully functioning as designed. Side options are turning out more appealing than the primary goal BHVR clearly wants which is hooks. I sincerely hope they get their game together. Its so cattywompus at the moment.
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If you say so. Ultimately it doesn't matter what people say - the devs can see on their end if it's happening more or not.
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My post was about the survivor experience just as much as it was the killer experience, with my whole argument being that I didn't feel like Finisher Mori is the great evil here everyone thinks it is. I haven't seen any uptick in slugging for 4ks since Finisher Mori was introduced, and my main argument was that killers are hardly incentivised to slug more with the system in place, and if anything, the real problem here that has people upset is slugging for the 4k as a strategy in of itself.
I recognize that may have been hard to understand from the way the post is written, but it was mainly about the people calling out a detriment on the survivor experience, and pointing at an aesthetic change hardly even affecting the match in the slightest, when there's an unfun gameplay strategy about as old as the game itself that is actually causing the problem.
Like, I feel as if in the event the devs went "Fine!" And removed finisher mori from the game, literally everyone complaining right now...will still be complaining about it because the whole gameplay reason this scenario exists is still completely unsolved.
When I got bled out on the floor for the second match in a row last night, I didn't think to myself "if only the killer wasn't looking forward to a snazzy 12 second animation." I just thought "Really wish there was a way around something like this without D/Cing." Y'know?
Maybe the devs could put a time limit for how long survivors are allowed to be on the floor, with a certain threshold disqualifying a finisher mori? That wouldn't solve my issues with slugging, but it would nip this whole argument in the bud in terms of how the mechanic could potentially incentivise it.
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Survivor can get better but then Killer will complain Survivor running them for 5 Generators. Do all you Killers want to face good Survivors? No. You all want easy games. And don't deny it. Look at the posts using the phrase "I'm in high MMR."
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All the updates pandering to their rulebook have created a player base that refuses to learn, that's the biggest obstacle DBD is currently facing. No change to game balance is going to make a survivor who gets knocked down in less than 10 seconds to last longer.
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We're not saying they're making things up. They're complaining about stuff that they either can't change, or could change with more experience, which they refuse to wait for. The mori 'reward' is a pretty animation which will soon fall out of style to prioritize, except among the newest players, who btw are probably the same group complaining about this issue. I'd like to see the devs fix the game, because the miserable survivor matches come more from bad, forced matchups, rather than killer being OP. It's as the original poster said. If survivors could learn in-game how to play, and similarly skilled/hour'd players got put against each other, it would reveal and fix a whole lot.
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Ah, I see. Rather enjoyed this explanation. Thank you. Now piece by piece!
My post was about the survivor experience just as much as it was the killer experience, with my whole argument being that I didn't feel like Finisher Mori is the great evil here everyone thinks it is. I haven't seen any uptick in slugging for 4ks since Finisher Mori was introduced, and my main argument was that killers are hardly incentivised to slug more with the system in place, and if anything, the real problem here that has people upset is slugging for the 4k as a strategy in of itself.
A few points were made, but I found I fully agree with the last, -the real problem here that has people upset is slugging for the 4k as a strategy in of itself.- Not that it means anything I guess, but I'd be surprised if anything was done about it in any fashion. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, it just sucks having your time wasted. For me anyway. Moving on!
- I haven't seen any uptick in slugging for 4ks since Finisher Mori was introduced, and my main argument was that killers are hardly incentivised to slug more with the system in place -
I, and many others, have expressed so we have. Naturally, both can be true as it's per individual: Mileage may vary kind of thing. It was almost every game or other game when it first came out, which is to be expected. But it just never stopped lol. After playing a few hours and realizing maybe 30+ minutes of it was just being slugged, you kind of rethink if your time is better spent on any other game/hobby/etc.
However, there is plenty more incentive to slug for the mori. Like the mori itself, without needing an offering or perk. Its pretty awesome. Isn't there a small BP bonus to the mori if done this way? Might be mistaken here.
If slugging for the 4k was problematic, and I'm not saying it really is, then adding more reason, no matter how big or small, will increase its frequency. Thoughts?
I recognize that may have been hard to understand from the way the post is written, but it was mainly about the people calling out a detriment on the survivor experience, and pointing at an aesthetic change hardly even affecting the match in the slightest, when there's an unfun gameplay strategy about as old as the game itself that is actually causing the problem.
I'm going to agree here, and also say I could have looked a little deeper. :)
I do think people are more telling the truth than not with seeing more S4k. Maybe not a huge uptick, but one none the less. I think it's more that seeing the mori is basically tea-bagging on the hatch before leaving. It gives the killer a retort of sorts. Ofc people are going to complain lol. But even if the S4k went away, I think the finisher mori would still be complained about.
an unfun gameplay strategy about as old as the game itself that is actually causing the problem. This 10,007%
Maybe the devs could put a time limit for how long survivors are allowed to be on the floor, with a certain threshold disqualifying a finisher mori? That wouldn't solve my issues with slugging, but it would nip this whole argument in the bud in terms of how the mechanic could potentially incentivise it.
That would be interesting! I was debating if they would deal with this with upcoming perks. If there's a problem with a mechanic, such as S4k, camping, gen rushing, etc… they can solve it via perks on upcoming DLC characters. Honestly feel that's more likely than any of it actually getting addressed.
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The problem with most people lurking in these forums is that they're some of the most entitled players out there. BHVR could add Basekit Unbreakable, and sure, it would "fix" slugging, but it would only lead killers to play even more aggressively, tunneling and trying to secure kills as quickly as possible (even more than now). It's a side effect of removing one playstyle from the game.
Basekit Borrowed Time was added, and now people are asking for Basekit Unbreakable. Next, they'll ask for Basekit Deliverance or some other perk to patch up whatever frustrates them. But none of these "fixes" will solve the underlying issues because entitled players are just that, entitled. They could have every perk in the game as base kit and would still keep asking for more.
BHVR does well to ignore these types of comments. I’m pretty sure this forum exists as a way for BHVR to channel the frustration of the most entitled side of the playerbase into one place, so it doesn’t spill over as much.
Now, on to real issues… please start banning survivors who give up on first hook, that would skyrocket my enjoyment of the game. Thanks.
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Here's a radical idea. However the game has gone just move on. You get slugged then its a 4 minute game from the time your downed. You get tunneled then your likely going to be able to go next quickly.
If your in a swf and don't want to wait then your "friends" should really do a better job at managing the killer in terms of trying to stop the tunnel ect or as a group decide if a killer is going to play like that you all just go next.
Complaining about any method a killer uses to complete their objective is pointless because no matter what BHVR does or how much the community complains about it nothing will stop.
Base kit BT to reduce tunneling. You eat the bt hit and tunnel anyway
Anti camp mechanics - You proxy camp
Both killer and survivor have really obnoxious ways to win the game but thats just the nature of what DBD has become. Gen rushing, bully squads, toxic behaviour, slugging, camping, tunneling its all part of the game and I think everyone needs to accept it. If you can't then maybe its time to find another game because as i said nothing is ever gonna change and the obnoxious gameplay styles on both sides have always been there and always will be.1 -
There's definitely some element of mismatched skill levels sometimes, which is partly because the matchmaking system prioritizes both player skill and wait time for matches. You're definitely right about that.
I do wonder how we explain so many people seeing an increasingly bad experience in their games recently? I know there are a lot of people on these forums who heavily prioritize 'complete wins' when playing as killer, which leads to pushing for 4k. Providing a sort of 'nice wrap up' for their matches seems likely to be a potentially underestimated incentive to push harder for a 'perfect match.' Basically, it could make it appear for some players that getting a perfect match by any means should be their goal. I also wouldn't be surprised if some people see the mori capping off some matches where they do well and feel like if they do that, they've done a better job and get a dopamine release from the result. And that dopamine release can lead to an unexpected increase in satisfaction from matches that end that way.
And while that wouldn't be a problem on its own, quite a few people I've interacted with here, on Reddit, and in endgame chats have the opinion that they should use all means available to get a perfect match, including tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k. Anyone seeing the finisher mori as a 'tidy' way to wrap up their match may be inclined to push a bit more for matches that lead to this new 'perfect match ending'. I wouldn't really be surprised if this happens, at least to some extent. Given the large number of people I've seen expressing that they're not responsible for other people's fun, and that they should use those playstyles, it seems likely that there's a sizeable number of people who will tunnel, proxy camp, and slug for 4k more in order to get their perfect match ending, and that others might see the new perfect match ending and be somewhat unconsciously incentivised to do those things too.
Anyway, that's not to say I'm right or you're wrong, but I definitely think it's good to monitor players' experiences over time and to see a variety of opinions on things that affect those experiences, yours and mine included :)
And sorry for putting so many things in quotes; I did it here because those things are all subjective concepts.
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Killers never stop to amaze with twisting statements as much as possible to benefit their own experience or mindset, even though they totally ignore the complete loss of logic in their twisted statement.
s, first to all: noone ever said that killer did not tunnel way before. So your initial basic is already a false act. Second, demanding slugging to be a skill issue. You can just run around ans say everything is a skill issue, but youre just lacking proof to it. Most players are indeed bad, but not considering anyones skill, slugging is by far too easy to pull off even for bad players. Or should I say, escpecially for bad killer players. Cause good players dont need to refrain to something like this.
The game needs to do MUCH better of teaching bad killer players how to play better instead of resortingfor mechanics that undo normal gameplay as easy as possible.
But I guess people like you will never agree to this. Cause you lack logic.
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I really don't care basekit (Cypress) mori got removed or not. They just need new excuses everytime.
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Op of the thread says "get better" but survivors perks are nerfed, pallets spawns are nerfed, map sizes are nerfed, jungle gyms are nerfs, healing was nerfed, gen times increased. Everything a survivor has to "help" gets nerfed. MFT was nerfed when it could of been made a anti tunnel perks that lasted for 80s but got nerfed into the ground. So how do we get better when everything on the survivor side is constantly nerfed?
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Then you haven't played enough killer. You think most killers are bad, and that's why they're supposedly overpowered (by getting entire unique powers and add-ons!). But you haven't visualized what's gone on in recent years. It's not that killers have been getting that much stronger. It's that you're correct on your other point, that the game is built to make killers win more. How does the game do this? Not through balance, but through matchmaking.
It used to be, through MMR, that killers and survivors would go against opponents and have teammates of equal skill/hours. But at the top level, survivors dominated almost every killer, which led to killers leaving or switching roles. Then the next lowest skill level of killers started getting put against those same survivors to fill the void (to not have such long queue times), and they got fed up and quit/switched too. Then the next level down, then the next level down, etc. I used to think that was it, that all killers were just bad now, but I forgot that within each level of killers leaving, there were a resilient elite few who stayed to play killer. So actually, the average killer player is pretty tough.
On the other hand, survivors, new and old, still have to be put with these killers. So while top level still plays out as usual (killer getting stomped), the mid and bottom levels have almost morphed into being 1 and the same, because here's the average match at that MMR: 2 good survivors, 2 bad survivors, 1 decent killer. The killer tunnels the 2 bad survivors out and gets a win, or the killer accidentally chases the good survivors and loses. That's all it is, a coin flip. And the devs, rather than fixing the MMR's forced mismatching of players, keep buffing those uncarryable teammates you keep seeing in the hopes that they'll be able to beat any killer. They won't. But they will keep getting put in your matches, and keep sabotaging your team.
Killers are having to play harder than ever to win, and we can say the same of solo queue, except for killers it's a balance issue, and for survivors it's a matchmaking issue. That's 1 reason I have an objection to your point on slugging, because killers have to do it vs certain teams, and can't take the chance that your random solo team isn't one of them, because if they guess wrong, they've lost. Reason number 2 is that you're asking killers to play worse in order to supposedly show more skilled gameplay (chases), the equivalent of which would be asking survivors "Don't do the generators fast. Do random chests and totems first." to give the killer more skilled gameplay (looping). It sounds like, on both ends, the issue is that gens are too fast. So it's easy to get a 4k every time "without trying," assuming you have survivors who don't do gens.
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It most certainly does. We called this. We called that if you keep ruining perks that reward hooks (Pop, Pain Res), reward injuring (Thana, Sloppy), and reward chasing (STBFL), what else is killer to do? We'll do what we need to win, but this is simply not enjoyable for either side, and it was entirely preventable!
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Therein lies the insanely high standard of power. You're not satisfied with free self-pickup and killer stun? Really?
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That's just buzzwords and speculation.
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"Give me everything I want, only buffs and never ever even consider nerfs or I'll take it out on my opponent"
This might be the most entitled thing I've ever read, which is saying a lot for this forum. And it's selfish to a degree that completely lacks empathy.
This is the kind of post where I need to emphasize that DbD is a game.
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Such a placebo
I've been watching 2 DBD streamers, and almost every single game is a slug for the 4k
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Sarcasm and humor, promise. :) And I've never equipped BT or DS. Can't stand them tbh.
Well, I'd say the same thing survivors are told about Adrenaline, Distortion, etc. They are still very viable and powerful, just not perfect. You can use them and still win efficiently.
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Ah yes, most players are bad, and when I say that I mean only survivors have no skill…. yeah, killers are just naturally skilled at the game. Or. Or. Hear me out. The game is killer sided. The game is so killer sided at this point that killers now think they are just that skilled at the game and don't realize how much the devs hand the game to them.
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Sure, killers have slugged for the 4k before - but just because it was bad before doesn't mean it isn't worse now.
However, the lengths to which a significant number of killers are now willing to go to get that mori are, quite frankly, ridiculous. Also, during all the time of slugging for the 4k I haven't experienced a killer picking up the last survivor several times and re-downing them until they got them "in the right spot" and I also haven't experienced killers slapping the next-to-last surv on hook non stop because apparently they feel not only entitled to getting a mori but also to getting it asap.
If you say "a generator pops within 45-50 seconds" that sounds like this is the average time. If that were the case, your average scenario is essentially the best possible scenario (current world record is at what? Just shy of 3 minutes? With the whole swf being completely decked out for gen-rushing?) which, one, seems fairly unrealistic and, two, begs the question if survivors should only be allowed to have a chance/play the game if they play with literal world-record speed.
If you're referring to the first gen popping within 45-50 seconds… that's to be expected? The first gen will usually be the fastest, the first two, even. Just like the last gen will usually take the longest and be the hardest to get.3
