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Do you think there will be any compensation for killer if thrill of the hunt gets nerfed?
Comments
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Believe it or not, there is a middle ground between hexes being cleansed too fast and hexes being uncleansable. I'm sure it's not too hard to find.
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Its also not too hard to do simple number adjustments yet it took them 2 years to do that for Twins
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Cleaning totems is not other objectives that progress the game. You were already given an example of a side objective for survivors that could be fun and progress the game, like searching for parts to repair the gate then doing gens etc. There’s no logical reason for survivors to want to be off gens cleansing totems that don’t progress their objective. Don’t be disingenuous.
Survivors do want side objectives. You just want them to have side objectives that waste their time and benefits the killer it seems.
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The perk was massively overbuffed without ever testing it on the PTB to see what its effect would be. Had they put it on the PTB they could have gotten feedback and pushed it live in a healthier state. They didn’t do that so it’s needed to be reverted. Just because you liked a broken perk because it benefited you doesn’t mean you deserve “compensation” when they fix their errors.
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No one is getting compensation for any possible changes in DbD because it's never happened before as far as I remember in my 2-3 years of playing DbD and we don't need compensation for everything in the game. It's just that simple
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I don't think we need compensation because I'm sure they will just revert the change that was snuck through with 0 testing
Surely we wouldn't receive a random buff, only to get hit with an overreaction nerf putting us in a worse spot than before..
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Imagine if every half a unique gen survs do they get a stack (like old BBQ gave per unique hook) that gives a 20% PB bonus (again just like old BBQ) and each totem cleaned gives 5% as well.
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I have a feeling we agree on many things, but we come to completely different conclusions. I think the game can be balanced, and I think the reason it hasn't is because the devs haven't even tried. They're taking advice from the most basic, ultra casual, no intention of improving, immersed players. They're not taking it from people who know what they're doing, and when they do, it's only survivor biased stuff.
Thrill kind of proves this. Nobody was using hexes before the buff. When a killer buff happens, it's exciting and shakes up the meta game, or at least gives people that hope, so they start experimenting with the recently buffed perk. But suddenly, after years of being a mechanic in this game, survivors have decided that killer getting to use their hexes, which are permanently destroyed if cleansed, are OP. I've lost to exactly 1 killer who was using a Thrill shaman build, and our loss had nothing to do with the build, and everything to do with playing bad/giving up. That's actually the reason why most survivors die to killers they have no place dying to. But nobody sees it.
So if we just accept that killer perks can't be strong (they're just there), and don't push back against these nerfs, of course the game will never be balanced. It's not using skilled, experienced play as a basis.
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Tell me how it's broken. Tell me how a killer is gonna patrol 7 gens and 2-5 totems, and not give up any time or pressure for it. Explain how survivors are mentally juggling more stuff and using more game sense than the killer in that scenario. And I'd agree with you, that hex perks are high risk/high reward. So why be so against them being strong? Like Undying, Thrill is a hex perk... to protect another hex perk. That's like having Bond AND Empathy as survivor, pretty much a waste of a perk slot. But y'all still want to complain about the killer having protection for their perk which gets destroyed forever once cleansed.
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They're taking advice from the most basic, ultra casual, no intention of improving, immersed players. They're not taking it from people who know what they're doing, and when they do, it's only survivor biased stuff.
Certain content creator are making videos agreeing with casual balancing changes. it is hard to explain. It is more that whenever BVHR attempts to balance a different genre of perk like Hex totems which is different from say gen defence/gen regression perks, the community rejects it saying something like "Other perk will never be as good as gen defence perks because they work against killer objective" and that is not true. other perks can be as good as gen defence perks but they're never allowed to shine because of this survivor bias gameplay attitude where anything that gets buffed/shake up for killer is immediately complained to death by survivor.
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I feel like dominance is a pretty good middle ground, although it does take a perk slot.
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That's totally fine, but that's not really "compensation," that's just balance. OP was suggesting that as compensation for nerfing Thrill, they should buff some killers, which is totally ignorant of how balance works.
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As a killer main, I love seeing delusional killer players complain about nerfs that are quite sensible all because they're bad. Thrill def needs to be nerfed as forcing a 45 second cleanse that is easily interrupted is dumb. Tombstone and Fragrant add ons needed their requirement doubled because there is twice as much evil in the match with emphasis on stalking from FAR AWAY. Drac's extra 3 second cool down for hellfire is countered by, drumroll please……NOT MISSING. Some of you just need to get better at the game or get better at coping with you're not gonna be the super star you think you are. Or yall can waste 10 mins slugging the last 2 survivors cuz you want to ensure the 4k
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We all are aware that this can be exploited combined with other perks and actually impossible to counter with specific killers (as per the Otz video), so unless you propose completely working certain killers and other perks so this one Hex can have an excessively buffed cleanse time attached to it, then the obvious solution is to fix the broken perk.
This isn't just high reward, it is literally an unwinnable game condition for unscrupulous players who will take advantage of broken perk combos/killers and again, you're not supposed to be almost guaranteed that your Hex will stay up. You don't just get to mitigate the risk and the fact you have to run this to support an incredibly strong and game changing perk like say Devour is neither here nor there.
It is completely broken and should never have gone life in the first place.
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Personally I don't want Trill to be nerfed, I want it to be completely reverted. There nothing wrong with old thrill with the bo bonus. If they nerf it to 10% but do nothing else with the perk then I'm going to be upset. Yes thae perk needs to be nerfed but taking the lazy route and dropping it back to 10% with no other 2nd effort imo will make the perk completely useless.
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Did you use thrill before the buff? No? So you didn't care when totem cleanse time was literally doubled? But now that its more than tripled you care and it should stay the way it is?
It's not high risk/high reward if there is minimal risk because it cant be cleansed against most killers.
If thrill sticks around the way it is, survivors need a boon to make boons unsnuffable or some other way to defend them even if that means once it's placed it can't be relocated.
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it takes 45 seconds for a totem to get cleansed, that’s not taking into account that there are multiples killers that can interrupt like doctor and the progress on the totem regresses to nothing. The gens also have to get done, people need to be unhooked and healed. The perk is broken and makes totems uncleanseable. But ofc the same person that thinks the gen kick meta with eruption was fine and that all killers are weak defended stuff like this
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I think the real answer is far simpler... balance in DBD is hard, because most players are not top level players.
Is all well and good blaming the casuals, but the casuals make up the bulk of the playerbase, which means their experience is just as, or arguably more important than the top tier players, which a lot of players in this forum are.
Why is Dracula getting changes to bounce between strong/mediocre constantly? Why is Pig on a watch list, yet Nurse isn't even being blinded during charge a blink to stop her exploiting auras to give free hits? Why did Skull Merchant get nuked to oblivion despite high level players agreeing she was mid at best? It's all because the bulk of the player are casuals and have different issues the top level players.
Extremely powerful hexes like Thrill are not really a problem for really good survivors, cause they know the totem spawns on every map, they just check them and pressure at the same time... no worries. If not, just hammer gens, no problem. They could deal with old Devour Hope Demogorgon.... but your average pub lobby could not deal with Devour Hope Demogoron... a lot couldn't even find the totem, let alone coordinate with their SoloQ teammates to cleanse it.
Most casual players are players taking silly builds, doing challenges and not taking medkits with stims or toolboxes with BNPs and all the strongest perk combos. If you run an entirely off meta build and go vs. this build... it's very hard to not just die, even if you play exceptionally well.
I find it hilarious that Devour Hope Demo got nerfed, and then every killed got buffed to be able to do the exact same thing, but the fact of the matter is the only way to deal with Hexes like this is to gen rush faster than the killer can catch people (which is basically escape before hook 5 or die), or being in an extremely coordinated and skilled team that manages to survive in chase long enough vs. the most lethal killers in the game and use those windows well to successfully pressure hexes AND keep it going to then complete 5 gens.
TLDR: A simpler wqy of looking at it... If 20% of the playerbase at the highest levels can just about handle it and the other 80% of the playerbase get smoked repeatedly by it... is it good for the life of your game?
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TLDR: A simpler wqy of looking at it... If 20% of the playerbase at the highest levels can just about handle it and the other 80% of the playerbase get smoked repeatedly by it... is it good for the life of your game?A similar thought, but related to the health of the game:
If there is a build that one side of the game can put on and, then with relatively little effort, win against 80% of the playerbase, its a bad design.
It's kind of like camp / tunnel. It's an incredibly basic strategy that I could explain to a new player that would win them a bunch of games, until they got to a point where survivors would know how to play against it and the killer suddenly gets crushed.
It's not a healthy game design for one side to have 'easy' strategies to execute that are only balanced by 'well, one day MMR will destroy them'.
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I literally haven't even used it since it got buffed but I dont understand your logic here at all. So because it got overbuffed that means we need to never let it be strong again and it deserves to be F tier as punishment or something? Yes there SHOULD be compensation because putting a perk back into the trash pile is a horrid idea.
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Survivors have always got compensation when they got a nerf or killer got a buff.
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They're not delusional. They see the change for what it is, a knee jerk reaction to survivor complaints. I've lost to a Thrill build exactly once because of the buff, and it wasn't even the build that made us lose. Dracula's hellfire is actually terrible. You can't just aim with it. The survivor pretty much has to run into it, or be stuck in an animation or a place with no room to dodge. And then complaining about the 4k. Survivors have held killers in games longer than they need to, just to style. Do you hold them to the same standards?
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I just think the devs should leave the BP perks alone. Those are what I've been running for years. I now have to find a replacement for Distressing on all of my builds,. If I want to prioritize BP over winning, that's my choice. What am I supposed to run now? The meta? A backpack build? Just Lightborn and nothing else?
I dunno, I haven't played killer since they made these changes. Why bother. I just don't feel like figuring out new perks right now.
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Because your definition of "counter" is basically making it to where the killer's perk is destroyed and can't physically be used. We already have a counter, no nerfs needed. It's doing the gens so fast, because the killer has no gen defence, that the killer doesn't have time to use their hex perks. You can do 5 gens against a killer who has no gen defence, and keeps wasting time guarding totems, by the time he's got 5 hooks. So that counters Devour, and if the killer isn't guarding hexes because he sees you're just rushing, you can then do the hexes. It's quite simple. I don't see how this is unwinnable.
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Okay, so the killer interrupts the totem. Then what? He's chasing the survivor, and the other 3 are on gens, whereas if he was playing without hexes, he'd at least be pushing that survivor off a gen instead. Those gens should be getting done in no time. Y'all's problem with framing all this killer stuff as OP is that y'all give survivors no faith. Maybe you're right to. But if they can't multitask, or have game sense, or strategize, then maybe they deserve to lose. It was the same with the "gen kick meta." Survivors just let the killer do whatever they want, and don't ever punish, and then blame the killer for their loss. You tell me how an M1, like Wraith, Freddy, Pig, Clown, Ghost Face, is gonna beat 4 good survivors who know what they're doing. I don't think ALL killers are weak, as Nurse and Blight (at least on PC) are able to hold their own, but that the role itself is weak, because if you're not playing those 2 killers, you're not beating a good team. The time equation of the game won't allow you to.
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I just can't accept the premise. You're forsaking the high level players' fun in favor of the low level players' fun, which literally no online game does besides this one, through what I would casual-centric balance, which is an oxymoron.
The fact that you even mention Demogorgon hex builds shows how low the bar has been set. That wasn't a big threat in the game at all, because I literally never saw it. But because Joe Schmoe on the forums must've complained about it once, they nerfed Demogorgon instead of solely buffing him. The same thing that made that combo mediocre is the thing that makes current Thrill mediocre. If the killer's guarding totems, rush gens. If he's not guarding totems, do them. If he's mixing it up, you mix it up. So players are just smart enough to recognize, "The bones that glow kill me somehow, and now I must complain on the forums about it." but they're not smart enough to even come close to finding this very simple counterplay. So why reward them, and punish the skilled players?
Your issue may be with MMR. The issue isn't always about balance alone. MMR is meant to keep the noob/learning players away from the high level ones until they're ready. If matches are happening as you say, where the killer always knows what they're doing with strong perk combos, and the survivors are always clueless running meme stuff, that's a mismatch of the system. However, this game is unique in that the average survivor player is really low level, and the average killer is pretty darn good. So even in a flawless MMR system, eventually bad survivors are gonna be put with good killers, and get stomped. So what do you do? Punish the skilled players to spare the casual ones? It doesn't seem fair to me. But it's what's been happening in this game for 6+ years.
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Yeah I think the devs should give me free stuff after they gave me free wins for 2 weeks straight. Tis' the season after all
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I can’t believe I have to explain this to you but here we go.
- I just said that there are a lot of killers that can easily interrupt survivors on totems with their power or mobility. Doctor artist singularity are some examples. Not to mention that face the darkness also interrupts survivors and results in the progress being gone. And there is also the case of where you have some killers with second objectives like pig pinhead sadako that just add more stuff to do on top of the totems.
2. You can’t be serious saying it was the survivors fault for the gen kick meta. Yeah it’s my fault for dying after 36 minutes vs a wesker on ormond because he had overbrine eruption and just camped the 3 gen. Yep i definitely didn’t try there……”survivors just let the killer do whatever they want and don’t ever punish and then blame the killer” this isn’t 2017 anymore as killers are much stronger and not every single survivor is team eternal that can counter everything.
3. Everytime I have responded to you I always bring up the fact that you have said before that there are 0 good killers in the game. Congrats you said that there are only 2 good killers in the game out of the 40🤯
You can win with more than half the roster vs good teams. You are not playing vs team eternal or whatever ultra comp team there is. If that’s the only standard you have for a “good team” then yeah you’re gonna lose because you aren’t as good as them. 99% of the playerbase isn’t. You have so many good killers in the game, nurse blight Billy (I mean seriously how can you forget about him) spirit artist Oni plague singularity Wesker pyramid head chucky xenomorph twins nemesis doctor demogorgon huntress hag Dracula vecna pinhead dredge wraith unknown and deathslinger. It is very difficult to take your “killer oppressed and survivors op” takes seriously when you say that basically every killer is weak
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I hear what you're saying dude, and I'm not denying your experience, all I'm saying is that defending totems with this configuration is very easy, and that is the key word... easy. It doesn't take any real skill on the killer's part to defend their totems other than patrol them every 40s.
The point is the hexes are made generally more dangerous with this change at high level, but because of the more intricate interactions at those levels, it's managable. However because it is so easy and skillless to get value, it is absolutely devastating at low level. The relative value in low to mid MMR is absolutely massive... and just like you're arguing to not ignore the high level players perspective, you in turn can't ignore the low players perspective.
There are many ways that Hexes could get buffed that are far more healthy for all levels of play... this raw time increase is not a healthy buff at majority of levels of play.
Here are the options for survivors: -
- Can't cleanse totems against a highly lethal/mobile killers or killwrs with nasty scream/interrupt strategies without giving downs/burning resources.
- Can't take perks or items to counter it, cause every perk to counter it is also hindered by 70%.
- Can't take out blank totems, cause most people also take undying, so that's permanent aura reveal for an easy interrupt.
- Have to gen rush before 5 hooks because of Devour hope... players so inclined already gen rus and are balancing their wins against a potential 7-8 hooks before pmayers start dropping... players who don't take perks/items to gen rush get punished extremely hard.
- Have to play in a coordinated SWF to have a chance...
This is a crap deal for most of the survivor player base. Either gen rush, play SWF, or die repeatedly to this really easy hex bulld that a brain dead chimp can use to beat majority of the players who are quite a lot better than him.
This build is NOED on steroids... NOED isn't used by most killers unless they're bad, and want free kills... but NOED drops off hard even in the mid tiers. This build is the new NOED, but it only balances out at high level? That seems very unhealthy does it not friend?
You've got a lot of DBD experience man, I'm sure you can come with a far more clever and interesting buff for hexes that takes some level of skill or knowledge from the killer over this boring time buff that demolishes the casual playerbase.
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I have ceased to care about anything Survivor Main Players want anymore. I have ceased to care about my random Survivor companions, too.
9/10 times, my SURVIVOR games are ruined by OTHER SURVIVORS. And I'm tired of pretending it's a Killer issue when it's not.
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I just played against a Singularity who could not even catch me at all in a normal chase and he got dominated right to the last gen where we suddenly got a rude shock that he had Devour and you guessed it, thrill in the broken Otz build.
They won the game because cleansing the totem was literally impossible, despite us clearly all being way above their skill level with the killer.
But this is okay to you and in fact if this is fixed people actually think killers are entitled to be compensated for something game breakingly broken?!
Make it make sense….
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Have to gen rush before 5 hooks because of Devour hope
This is the part that I think people overlook hard. We had the same problem with the gen kick and 3 gen metas: easy killer strategy that was nearly impossible to counter to the normal player base.
But, since there is literally zero in the game for comeback mechanics for the survivor team, if you don't gen rush it's auto loss.
For all of the complaining about "gens go too fast", some people are really, really stuck on strategies that the only answer survivors have is to push gens as hard as possible to even have a chance.
So survivors get conditioned to gen rush, and when the new, broken killer-toy-of-the-month is finally taken away, well... Survivors are still gonna gen rush after that too.
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