At this point killers are just asking for unbreakable basekit

I think ONE use of Unbreakable basekit would be fine, personally I don't like to slug that long anyway unless I have no choice. But if implemented it needs to be what Unbreakable is right now, and Unbreakable needs to do something else.

Correct. A lot of us have been waiting a loooooong time for that "Fixing issues with awful matchmaking and outdated mechanics.'

These issues have been around a long time, getting more awful as the years rolled on.

+1

It’s funny. As a Killer main I actually do want Survivors to have base-kit Unbreakable.

Survivor Main here and let me say I absolutely understand tactical slugging and tunneling. I don't get mad about it because I understand it. I get mad when I am on the ground bleeding out with my teammates and getting humped by the killer just because they can. I usually crawl to the nearest hook.

Now as far as MM it's a mess. It seems that I get my Survivor rank in my killer games and it's unbearable. I get loads of toxic play and I only play two games a day of killer if that. I don't understand how one can do a gen by themselves in less than a minute with no gen perks and the sabo squads yuck. I can genuinely understand the slug strategy with who I go up against. But not all games are like that and I never slug I will just let it go.

The main reason I feel is that slugging meta is more popular on the North American servers so that's only a small portion of players. It isn't this widespread problem because only very few players are doing it in the whole community but it will cause that player count drop in that area. My suggestion is make slugging punishable by some means. If the killer allows two people to bleed out for over 2 minutes then lock the ability to play killer only Survivor. Make deer stalker bk after 60 seconds. This can also be for two games in a row not just one, this will separatethe sluggers from the players. There should be no reason to bleed out someone unless the squad is toxic or tactics prevent you from hooking.

Sounds like there should be a faster way to bleed out then not a way to win when you lose.

@Reinami 's suggestion is really good but I don't know if it could be coded in.

Another possibility is having a repair debuff on gens while all survivors are alive and have it replaced by a gen repair buff when a survivor dies (and have it scale in speed depending on how many survivors are alive). That would slow down the early game and give more time to spread hooks while also making it so a survivor dying doesn't mean it becomes nearly impossible to do the gens. Theoretically the best chance for a 4K under this system would be to put everyone on death hook before starting to sacrifice survivors.

Another option that doesn't change mechanics is buffing gen defense perks but having them deactivate on survivor death. Pain Res could go back to 25% each hook but stop working when a survivor dies and Ruin could go to 200% again but once again deactivate. This doesn't provide a disincentive to not tunnel though which I think is also important.

Another option suggested was having group hook states. That wasn't my preference but it would work as well. It would probably need gen repair speed adjustments based off my gut feeling. I could be wrong though.

Another option would be cages sort of like how they do it in 2v8. The Killer saves time by not walking to hook and, in return, the Survivor is hard to find making it more difficult to tunnel.

Anyway, that's a summary of suggestions I remember seeing. It's perfectly possible to get rid of tunnelling (or decrease it substantially) if BHVR would test a solution and code it in.

I vibes with that as a Ghostface Main and I try to be that way too. Ghostie similarly is one of the few Killers incentivized NOT to camp hooks or slugs, since he can be revealed that way. I like to find new ways to trick people in chase with my Shroud and crouch, it's like a fun little game to see if I can get one over on the Survivors or get an ambush on alert Survivors.

I'm confident enough at this Killer that I don't have to play to win all the time. I'm not going to force it if it's not meant to happen; I'm gonna keep spreading hooks and playing the way I want to and using what I want to in order to enjoy the round or accomplish my goals. Even my build only really works if you spread hooks. If I'm getting to the point I "need to win", I need to put the game down, not force more wins. Actually I like to wind down this time of year, right around Bone Chill. I play very vibey and chill and even less caring of a win than normal.

I do the same with everyone else I play. For example I am willing to goof a bit with Gloaming as Dredge like an excited little dance, I'm not mean or anything but I do play hard!

I know this will never actually happen, but I hope it doea anyway because survivor has been the underpowered role for long enough now. I also just want to see how salty killers on the forums can get, considering their cries are allready at apocalyptic proportions when the developer explicitly states they are purposely giving them a greater chance to win.

Just tell me how the balance of the past helped me in the video, when my team simply couldn't fix a single generator? Maybe the problem was always different. Survivors that do anything but not generators. They give up at the slightest pretext. It's just that in my time there were fewer useless survivors. I literally had to break out of ranks 20-15 to get enjoyable games.

As much as I don't like SWF. I admit that it's a filter from survivors who can't even hold M1. I literally feel the difference when survivors with similar views appear on my team.

The only screenshots that I collect on the survivors' side are mostly like this. Games that instill horror on the killer's side, when survivors know how to properly use their advantages.

I think it would be the easiest to implement since Sole Survivor exists so there's already something similar in the code. Your idea is far more interesting and cooler but I don't know if BHVR would put in the time and hours to implement it.

I agree that better incentives should be given to killers to hook. And not only hooks but multiple targets, so that killers are rewarded for multiple chases/hooks with multiple survivors. It is up to BHVR to push the game towards that direction, and because they haven't players will take advantage. But I disagree about not allowing perks that work after being unhooked. Perks like those make sense because the survivor that was just hooked are more vulnerable. The people who don't have hooks don't need more tools, the people who are one step closer to death are the ones that need them.

I don't think its a coding issue, I think there are two other problems at play when we discuss fundamental game changes:

1: The level of perk redesigns that would be necessary to accomplish it.

2: Going against the core of the game. DbD is an elimination game. A huge part of the tension is the knowledge that you could get eliminated even if the game is going well and things can turn from good to bad really quickly. Survivors are supposed to care about whether they personally survive (and, broadly, I think they do). This is in contrast to a game like a hero shooter where if I die to take an objective, but we take the objective, that was the goal.

And this all comes up against the fact that even if many players express frustration with certain elements of DbD, the player counts are very healthy, especially given the game's age. If I was in BHVR's shoes I'd see no reason to change the core philosophy of the game.

But if we're just talking hypothetically

Another possibility is having a repair debuff on gens while all survivors are alive and have it replaced by a gen repair buff when a survivor dies (and have it scale in speed depending on how many survivors are alive).

It would be hard to balance and get right. Conceptually, survivors should never benefit from a survivor dying. Sometimes it is a worthwhile trade, but you get into the dangerous hypothetical of 'killer is punished for doing their objective' style discussions.

I did once post the following idea when I tried to think of a way to redesign it:

All survivors have 75% gen repair speed of what it is currently. Whenever a survivor is downed, all other survivors have their gen speed increased by 15%. If the survivor is picked up/not hooked, the 15% is reset.

However, anytime a survivor is hooked, their gen repair speed returns to 75% no matter what it was at.

Example game play: Killer downs and hooks survivor A, then B, then C, the B again. Survivor A would have gen repair 120%, B 75%, C 90%, and D 135%. B is the tunnel out, but the killer has incentive to really find survivors A or D because their gens are flying.

The idea was to slow down early game, encourage hook spreading, make the benefit occur with slugging but not be punishing if the survivors pull off a save. Lore wise, this would be survivors working harder as they see others injured, but slowed down when they are hooked.

Even though I posted it, not sure if the right spot could ever be found where it would not radically tilt the game in the direction of the survivors or killer.

Another option would be cages sort of like how they do it in 2v8

I think if they were remaking DbD, there are a number of things that they would probably take from 2v8 for 1v4. The class system, survivors getting stronger as they get hooked, basekit catch up mechanics, and, of course, the cage mechanic, would probably all be better starting points. But going to cages now would require massive rebalancing.

yes it literally is, in most cases it literally is in the best interests of both you and your teammates to keep you on hook (as long as you don't fall into another hook state/die on hook).

How many matches do we need to lose, how many complaints about unbalanced game and killers being OP will we have to issue until we realize our own macro mistakes?

Advantages of greeding a survivor on hook:

1. denying an eventual tunneling attempt for the killer because hook progress of a hooked survivor can't be sped up (unless killer has Monstrous Shrine, but who uses that?);
2. fighting off a camper;
3. more time for gens while forcing killer that isn't camping to waste more time trying to patrol gens and potentially engaging into a very beneficial chase for your team when at least one teammate remains on a gen and one goes for the unhook soon because they are aware killer is chasing another survivor so they have time for unhook and reset;
4. 0 info for the killer about location of two survivors on the map for the duration of almost whole one hook state.

These are literally basics of macro gameplay knowledge, if you really still keep talking about balance while missing on these out, just don't take part in balance discussions

These are literally basics of macro gameplay knowledge, if you really still keep talking about balance while missing on these out, just don't take part in balance discussions

Your structure seems to presume that killers are having some massive difficulty in finding survivors. Not only are there multiple perks that make this easy, the macro gameplay knowledge you think seems to be missing should give the killer a pretty clear indication of where the survivors are located.

This is also disregarding the threat of a snowball if the killer gets an early down.

This is true. Two survivors downed is nightmare for survivors.

Additionally - if you greed the hook timer, the killer has no reason not to return. If I'm playing killer and its been 50 seconds without an unhook, I can basically guarantee myself a free hook state by returning to the hook and either forcing a trade or getting the survivor to the next hook state.

I think out of all the Surv rounds I play in a month, I only ever get slugged to bleedout like this… something like three times. And that's usually out of at least 50-60+ matches. And it usually only happens during the sweatiest times of the month like Rank Reset or if a mode/event is on.

I rarely get Killers doing this on purpose.

Slugging is a thing because they have added so many perks, add ons and items to counter hooks.

This is simply not correct. The only things they've added have been to deter camping and tunneling, and do nothing if you leave the hook. And while there are a disturbing number of killer players who see that as synonymous to "hooking" and can't literally think of any other way to play the game, that's entirely and completely wrong.

Anyone who says or thinks this is because of perks or mechanics is being disingenuous to everyone, possibly including themselves.

The core problem isn't that killers slug. The core problem is why killers feel they need to slug.

People will always feel the "need to slug". In general, there are (unfortunately many) killers who put ego into everything, especially on these forums. Losing a game, or even not "winning completely" is not even a thought that crosses their minds. They can "play normally" or "play how they want" and stay in their own/appropriate MMR bracket, but many of these players aren't satisfied with that because it means they will only get about 60% kills, and eventually will not be winning all the time.

When that happens, they start using strategies that are "easy to execute, and hard for survivors to counter". They will tunnel until that inevitably stops working for them, and currently the meta is to simply slug until even that stops working for them. Usually, once they hit the absolute limit of their ability, they post on the forums for "devs to do something, because they insist they have to tunnel and slug every game".

But you don't have to. You can kill about 60% of the time in easy games, or you can sweat incessantly and have really frustrating games and still kill about 60% of the time. And your insistence that this is "a focus on the core problem" is, simply put, just another plea for the devs to buff killers and/or nerf survivors. At which point the cycle will still be identical, just with a few more easy wins in between before again hitting your skill cap.

The mindset for killers is the core problem. And somehow this is the only PvP game I've ever seen where players seem to expect to win every game, and when that doesn't happen, scream at the devs to fix it. That is the core problem, and no amount of balance will change the fact that people will seemingly always feel entitled to win all the time. The only thing that changes is what "flavor of the month" perk/mechanic/item is being blamed for it this time.

One thing I've always noticed is how people treat being picked up by a teammate to be somehow different than being rescued from a hook. You don't NEED unbreakable to get off the ground just like you don't need a perk to get off a hook. The normal recovery for both is the same thing... You're teammate returns you to the "injured" state. The only really difference is a killer can sit on top of a slug without an antiface camp mechanic kicking in...in which 3 people have 4 minutes to finish the gens, which is way more than enough time.

I'm actually glad you brought up BBQ because that was one of the best perks that incentivizes going for hooks. At first, I wanted to suggest making BBQ base kit, but I'm of the firm belief that built in aura reading should not be a thing for killers, at least in the base kit. But I still think a base kit BBQ does have some merit, or at least the concept of it. I just couldn't figure out a way to make it work properly. And then, Scourge Hook: Jagged Compass was introduced. A perk that shows the gen with the most progress. This isn't what i had in mind for the base kit addition to killers to incentivize going for a new survivor once an old one was hooked, but its a step in the right direction.

What I'm suggesting is a base kit mechanic for killers that rewards them for hooking a survivor; the reward being information of some kind valuable information regarding the rest of the map. Now, what that information should be, i cant really say. I think giving the specific location of the other survivors is a bit much, and Jagged Compass already shows the gen with the most progress, but by giving the killer something valuable, in a way that could be minor or major depending on balancing, you incentivize picking up that survivor and hooking right away rather then simply leaving them on the ground.

Now, You're still going to have some specific situation where leaving a survivor on the ground may be a smarter choice, but they'll be far less frequent. And frankly, the only way to really eliminate slugging would be to have the Entity itself hook survivors as soon as they're down and immediately move that survivor to a far away hook that the killer can't see the aura of, and thats just a bit too much.

This was fun. Good chat, sir