http://dbd.game/killswitch
There is no justification for killer addons.
I have played this game since 2017 on and off. That's not to comment about my skill, just that I have seen the game change a lot. In early DBD which strove to create a wacky fun experience for all players I supported killer addons, old flashlights, medkits and everything else. But eventually the direction changed to one of balance.
This game is the most balanced it has ever been. So why are killer addons still viable? I mean they seriously nerfed toolboxes, medkits and keys. Sure that's all fine, but why can I throw on addon that boosts my killer power? Even small changes have big impact. Look at made for this with it's 3% increase. So you can't argue that even small boosts in killer power don't have a huge impact. The more power addons are like versing completely different killers. If a killer needs the addon, then why not make it basekit and remove the all addons. There is no reason most killers need a power boost.
At the minimum killers should not get normal blood points. Cut it by half at least to show hey you won, but not really. If you are going to say well remove survivor items as well. Might as well most of them have been nerfed into inconsequence.
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Items and add-ons aren't comparable at all. Survivor teams also get 16 add-ons every game compared to the killer's 4.
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I think add-ons are fine. They need tuning here and there like everything else in the game, but I think they add varieties(and fun) to killer playstyles so you have options to play with, which is never a bad thing. By far my favorite games are always ones where I have more customization over my characters be it their look or what they can do, and the best games have both.
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Add-ons are there for variety. Why should scratch mirror get removed just because survivor items are weaker than they used to be. It makes no sense.
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Ok, let's say we justly the 10 or so goofy addons. That still removes the variety of addons that exist as simple power boosts. Let's not be disingenuous. Also you say keep for variety but would that not also be applied to things like old hatch?
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But would you apply that same logic to old flashlights, toolboxes, sabo hatch ect. Or do they not count as variety?
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One of my biggest complaints about the games is addons, both on the killer and survivor side. Its one of the things that turned me off from the game when it first released (when there was stuff like 'auto complete a gen'). I've always hated how the game felt like it had a difficulty slider (sweaty) about how people want to play.
Conceptually, MMR should deal with this. If a player constantly plays overpowered addons they'll get moved to a higher MMR where things will balance out. In my experience that kind of happens, when I see killers running over powered addons they tend to not be that good at the game, and usually when I get stomped by a killer they're not actually running anything. However, MMR is frequently unreliable and complained about, and this system breaks down at the margins anyway.
That said, addons are necessary to create variety within the game. I wish though that all addons were pro/con in their approach. Sadly I think the design is way too baked into how the games works to ever be changed.
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That's part of the main reason. Killer addons inflate the skill level of the killer. Variety is fine it's good, but addons aren't variety they're just power boosts. Most killers cannot play the game without them. I have no issue with an addon that's fun, just the ones that takes away the skill of the killer.
this right here is the problem, I suggest that maybe people are so reliant on these addons that they can't play the game without training wheels and I'm labeled as bait. Proving that people can't play the game without them. you are correct they are ingrained and will never be removed, but I stand by my point. there is no justification for them other then "I want them" see the responses.
Killer addons also affect the balancing because killers are strong or weak based on what people choose to run. They cause so many issues.
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They responded to your post in their own way:
Nah, this 100% bait. I was like 90% sure this is bait
They thought/think the take of your post is so hilariously bad that it has to be a joke/bait and isn't worth talking about and instead researched if this is a one of a kind for your or your general demeanor in the forum.
Btw I also check people tendencies before making accusations so as to not make a fool of myself.
Calling this little bit research restrained to the forums alarming is ridiculous.
You can cry wolf when they know your IP or home address, anything else makes you look paranoid.
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Are you.. going to engage with my points or not.
Most people either just don't like what I have to say or just says, I like them because I think they are fun.
So… at the moment, my point completely stands. Even yourself.
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I think you can do some pretty advantageous things with items and their add-ons especially with combined perks, and if you don’t think so then I suggest research.
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See that's the issue, combined perks.
If a killer needs to run a specific build to get strong value then that is fine. but the addons you just throw on and boost your power sometimes by a little sometimes a lot can't be justified. Unless they are made extremely limited.
I would suggest you learn to play killer without addons and see how much they carry you.
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I watch dbd steamers and can see the difference ad-ons can make.
And that can be quite a difference maker in the outcome of the game.
But as I've said before I don't use them because I can't be bothered reading what they do nor care if I win or lose.
I play fun killers for fun. Not to win.
As to whether killer should have them -absolutely
Especially for m1 killers with either no map pressure or anti-loop.
Just because I don't use them I think the game would be stale without them on either side.
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Okay let's see:
Are you.. going to engage with my points or not.
The point of him not answering you, yes.
The point of your original post, no, i don't care and haven't even played the game for years now.
...just says, I like them because I think they are fun.
I don't understand what you are trying to say with this part of your second sentence.
So… at the moment, my point completely stands. Even yourself.
I never argued your points, since I don't care.
What do you mean with "even yourself". It doesn't make any sense to me.
Edit: Correction, I argued that calling their behaviour "alarming" is exaggerating and I still stand by that opinion.
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Are we seriously complaining about killers even having addons? Is that where we’ve gotten to?
Good lord.
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There are still plenty of Survivor addons that have extremely significant effects. Brand New Parts, Styptic Agents and Syringes are the big three, and are still all extremely good even after their nerfs (syringes didn't even get nerfed either).
Outside of these big ones, there are still addons that give significant stat bonuses that make items way better. Blood Amber, Flashlight Batteries and Sapphire Lenses, Surgical Sutures, Wire Spool. All very good addons that make their respective items leagues better.
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if the game is “the most balanced it’s ever been”, why would you be proposing any changes? That doesn’t make any sense
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This is a bait thread.
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This discussion could be taken minimally seriously if it were not for the fact that you encounter at least one Brand New Parts, Styptic Agents and Syringes per match. Survivor items are not even necessary for the normal course of a match, but that does not detract them from carrying the best at their disposal.
Compare that to playing The Doctor without any add-ons, what mean having no illusions (red stain, fake doctor, fake pallets or fake terror radius) at any level of Madness. It's like playing an extremely limited version of the killer. It is true that this extreme is not common for all killers, but for many some specific add-ons are a must.
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Didn't you know. Killers are suppose to play M1 Nurse with no addons and perks and you're not allowed to blink.
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So true, I read it somewhere in a handbook. If you blink I can't flashlight you, and I want your nurse eyes wide open like doctor ya hear. So you best listen and not put add-ons on nurse, don't make me grab my friends.
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What?!
How is this game even close to balanced? And you literally debunk yourself when you say that killer add-ons shouldn't be viable as (you say) they are now. Wouldn't that mean the game's currently very unbalanced?
I think we all know why toolboxes, medkits, and keys were nerfed. Toolboxes allowed a survivor to boost a gen's progress over a long period of time. They were reworked, really, so that you're getting as much of a boost as you were, but it's just more progress in less time. If anything, they're better now. Medkits were broken because the killer would hit someone, drop chase, and then 15 seconds later they're healed again. They just wasted all that time in chase, essentially. So medkits were made to be more altruistic, boosting the healing speed of teammates rather than yourself, and in fact you can still heal yourself, just not lightning fast. Keys were nerfed because the objective of the game is to do the gens and get out exits, not do some gens, punish the killer for killing more survivors than gens done, and you and potentially multiple teammates getting out for free.
Killers are continually having an uphill battle to remain viable, because doing chases and hooking as the game intended is not viable. They tried using gen defence, they tried camping, they tried tunneling, they tried hexes, they tried different once-strong killers like Spirit, Freddy, Wraith, Pinhead, they've tried chase perks, they've tried slugging, and they've different add-ons as well. All nerfed. Whatever pushes a certain killer to its strongest, or at least what's viable, people are gonna continue to find out and use. Are pink and purple killer add-ons not supposed to be strong? That the question I ask nerf-happy survivor mains. Because if not, what's the point of having rarity at all? I don't say, "Take away all survivor items and add-ons." I could easily make an argument against instaheals or BNP being too strong, but I think there's more pressing issues than even those.
The stuff that has been nerfed is really wild to me, and to you as well if you just look at the history. Huntress got her instadown hatchets limited to 1. Fair enough. But then they nerfed Clown's "instadown" add-on, Redhead's Pinky Finger, because "It does the same thing." No. How are they even remotely the same? It gives exposed, only for as long as the survivor is Hindered, and only after a direct bottle hit, which is hard af to do, especially point-blank. The amount of wasted time and energy would often allow the survivor to get to a safe place anyway, unless the Clown had robotically perfect aim. When other Clowns were running it with the 2 extra bottles add-on, I was running it with the brown Fingerless Parade Gloves, because it sped up the bottles' travel speed itself and made them easier to land. Then the add-on was nerfed to reduce the bottle count by 2. So now you had to run a pink and a purple to get the same effect as you used to. This is on one of the weakest killers in the game, btw, who needed this add-on to be viable or else he just wasn't. Then they nerfed it to lock the bottle count to 1, and at that point it becomes clear the devs had malice against Clown players, because they just did whatever nerfs the survivors asked of them, with no forethought to what actually goes down in a match. Now you never see Clown; he's back to square 1.
People literally never saw Adrenaline Vial, didn't even know it existed, because of how weak the original version was. It massively capped your turn rate, although PC could and still does override with their mouse flicks, something to remember later. It had this downside in exchange for several upsides, 3-4, including increased rushing speed, increased token recharge, and increased look angle. Combo'd with the green turn rate add-on, Umbra Salts, and you had an actually decent altogether effect. So the devs buffed the add-on, making the turn rate reduction slightly less, and leaving everything else the same. Suddenly out of nowhere, survivors started complaining about the add-on. "This add-on is crazy OP! All those effects!" I laughed at them, and tried to explain about the downside and the rarity justifying its strength. They didn't listen, and in fact they got the last laugh, because soon enough it was nerfed, per their complaints. Unnerfed Crown/Rat was still a thing, but no, let's call for a nerf on Adrenaline Vial, which nobody used before its buff. I tried to compromise and say, "PC flicks, which break the turn rate, is why the add-on is so strong. Console Blights are only slightly more powerful because of this add-on, and probably still need to run a turn rate add-on as well." Again, they didn't listen. Strong killer to be pushing back against his nerfs, I know, but that doesn't make a difference if you've understood all I've said.
Wraith used to be pretty good too. And besides the ludicrous nerfs he got to his kit, he also had his add-ons nerfed. His Shadow Dance add-ons, which speed up kicking and vaulting speeds. It also used to open lockers faster, a really good tool against the then-possible flashlight save from locker grab exploit, and against survivors hiding in and out of lockers, holding the killer hostage. Why was this effect removed? No reason, at all. It might have even been a shadow nerf, not even announced, but there was absolutely no discussion around the effect to justify removing it. He also had has All-Seeing Blood nerfed, the one that let him see auras while cloaked. Why was it nerfed? "Because it lets the killer see me." So killers aren't allowed to see people's auras, or use it to skillfully out-mindgame survivors at loops. Got it. The add-on still has the same effect, just with less range, but that range is pitiful. And all this was done against an M1 killer, but I guess he's "OP" because "invisible plus fast equals strong."
The less BP angle is just weird. Why would you give players less score and currency? How does that help the game?
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Which is why people essentially arguing, "Killer add-ons should do next to nothing" are silly.
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What? That's not how ballance works?
The game was more balanced now then 2020 and 2020 was then 2017. We still made more changes. And will make further changes.
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Which again is my point. If a killer is reliant on addons then the killer needs base buffs. But you can't justify the buffs because of addons. That is what throws out balance. Unless you want throw out balance for fun. But then you need to bring back the old things that was removed for balance.
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At the minimum killers should not get normal blood points. Cut it by half at least to show hey you won, but not really.
I'm not sure why we still have the killer role at all anymore, really. BHVR should just make killers NPCs. It would make balancing a lot easier. No more add-ons, no needing to try to make the match fun and balanced for two different sides, no needing to take BP away from the killer. Survivors outnumber killers 4 to 1 anyway, might as well get rid of the straggler role.
I'm sort of being ironic there… but sometimes I really do wonder why the killer role exists at all anymore. It often seems like a large amount of the playerbase would prefer if killers just went away. These are all just people playing a game, and you're saying that you don't like the way BHVR designed the role, so let's punish the people who play the role by halving the reward they receive.
The devs use add-ons to give players choices. Like Spirit's add-ons. The way they balance Spirit, they start with a baseline. The devs probably consider her a bit weak at the baseline. Then, the player can choose how to make her stronger. Faster recharge speed or faster movement speed or longer phase-walk time. The devs can't give her all those things at baseline, she'd be too strong. And if the devs choose which ones they prefer and make those basekit while removing add-ons entirely, players would all disagree, saying, "No, she feels garbage now, I preferred buffing this other part of her kit."
Killers are designed with weaknesses in their kit and players choose which parts of their kit are important to them, sometimes at a great cost (like Trapper's Trapper Sack).
Edit: Edited because I realized most of the final paragraph was unnecessary and deviated from the point I was making.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on5 -
I do sometimes worry that it's maybe a bit too easy to amass a huge number of add-ons as Killer. This is potentially problematic if those add-ons are way too strong, make an already strong Killer ever more OP, or might be considered unfun or unfair to go up against.
On my Legion for example, I don't have any less than 150 of each Iri add-on and well over 2000 of the more common ones. I can pretty much run whatever combination of add-ons and perks I want to and I will never, ever run out so long as I'm willing to keep spending the BP. Of course, you can argue there should be a reward for dumping most of your BP into one character. After all, I've made a conscious choice to make sure my Legion is well stocked up.
At the moment, I like to run the Iri button with Julie's mix tape and while I don't think this is especially strong compared to what some Killers can bring, it does considerably improve their chase power. Since I build mostly around chase perks, I rationalise that this is ultimately fair because I'm banking on getting faster downs to make up for sacrificing some of Legion's slowdown potential. But who knows if my build might feel unfair or annoying to some of the Survivors I play against? At the other end of the scale, there's Mischief List (another favourite) that feels borderline necessary if you want to be able to consistently chain frenzy hits. It doesn't do much more than make the Legion's most basic game play somewhat viable against the better Survivor teams.
Add-ons can change the character of a Killer and I think that's pretty cool. It makes for more variety and can accommodate more play styles. I guess what I'm really saying is that BHVR need to be extra careful with Killer add-ons. Generally speaking, I think they do a good job of listening to feedback from the player base when things are considered too strong or too frustrating to go up against. It just takes them a long time sometimes to make changes.
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I've seen some entitled posts before here, but damn, this takes the survivor cake!
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Nothing about this post makes sense:
Toolboxes were especially with perks combined really crazy.
Medkits allowed you a insane amount of selfheals and a heal in chase that wasn't too hard to archive.
And keys would let swfs ignore a huge chunk of the main objective.
There's hardly an addon that would be that insane to compare them to those things, most addons are just trash. Most killers have a few good ones and the rest is worthless, except the name is pyramid head then every addon is worthless, even the 2 best don't do anything except giving laughable 2,5 meters of range that reach the survivor even later then the normal max range xDDD
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You're right on most things. They really take away every appealing option killers could possibly have. All of the strongest survivors perks activate upon hook, and do crazy stuff for them too, like a free stun because they got downed again, or a 3rd health state. And yet killers are bullied into going for hooks still, because slugging "is toxic."
Alchemist's Ring rewarded you for getting hits with your power, while still giving survivors adequate time to adjust for the next rush, hence their free sprint burst. And it was a purple btw. Nerfing it was a bad call.
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Killer addons are variety, frankly if there were no addons in this game and every single match as a killer felt ~90% the same to the last one with no way to shake it up besides perks and map I probably would have 1/10th the hours in it and have quit long ago. The idea that there are 231 different ways to run a killer based off addons alone is a very interesting concept that keeps the gameplay fresher longer
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Alchemist's Ring rewarded you for getting hits with your power, while still giving survivors adequate time to adjust for the next rush, hence their free sprint burst. And it was a purple btw. Nerfing it was a bad call.
I myself don't really have an opinion on it because I didn't/don't go against Blight that often. I just remember a common sentiment on the boards being along the lines of "Alchemist's Ring needs to be nerfed. Killers don't need to be rewarded for correctly using their power. Why is BHVR ignoring Blight?"
I think that's an accurate summary, but maybe I'm misremembering. It was the first add-on that popped into my head since it was somewhat recent. As far as I can remember, the only add-on I personally had a problem with was Iri Head back when it could be combined with a second add-on for carrying more than one hatchet.
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The add-ons for killers allow killer players to customize their power to best suit their playstyle, either by making additions to the power or making it easier to use. Add-ons allow for variety in playstyles with the same killer. The "game" played with add-ons is that there are only two slots, so killer players have to pick whether they want to go for shorter cooldowns and other effects that make the power smoother, or add new effects to the power like exhaustion or blindness to synergize with their build.
While killers have had problematic add-ons, such as the now-largely-extinct insta-down add-ons, survivors have also had problematic add-ons, such as BNP. Additionally, survivor items are still viable, they've just been changed. Medkits are still usable. They have, however, been reworked to work better when used on other survivors, incentivizing teamwork and helping others. Similarly, reworked BNP is now a utility add on to make completing a contested generator easier. Toolboxes haven't been touched too much, and are thus still very powerful. Survivor items still have a huge role in the match, they've just been shifted around in what they do.
If killer add-ons were removed, then killers each be reduced to a few predetermined playstyles and the game as a whole would be poorer for it.
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I think the biggest problem I find with killer add on's is that most of them are just hot garbage with only a few of them are good (which end up being their meta add ons) and 90% of the time no one uses these garbage add ons so I don't really get this "variety" talk ive seen some people say. But having said that I think if we want balance survivor items need to be brought down and up to the killer add ons (like BNP being removed) or having all adds ons and items being brought to the same level of BNP.
Im just using BNP as an example not as the set standard.This is just my opinion so have fun telling me how stupid it is :)
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Yeah remove Pig's ability to get another bear trap its too OP
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Also we get unlimited heals. I always thought that was a bit strange. I main survivor, but used to play killer and stopped after the Spirit release. Seems the killer side of the game just kind of went boop for me.
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"At the minimum killers should not get normal blood points. Cut it by half at least to show hey you won, but not really."
So, if somebody played really well and they also had iri add-ons, would they not deserve to win?
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I will agree to this but only if we give multiple killers basekit buffs because some of them need add-ons to feel better/not be horrible and we remove all add-ons for Survivor as well. No more styptics, syringes, or BNPs.
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Great point, it would only be fair. I’m going to vote no against OP bc I don’t want that to end up being the case, bc that’s exactly what would happen if not worse.
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Two different things in this post.
I'm sort of being ironic there… but sometimes I really do wonder why the killer role exists at all anymore. It often seems like a large amount of the playerbase would prefer if killers just went away.1: I feel this way about killers at points. Soloq is far too weak, SWF is far too strong, and I'm not sure what they want. Arguably they want SWFs, that they still usually beat.
2: If it was a PvE game the unbalanced nature would make sense.
As a soloq survivor, I feel the game is pretty heavily killer sided. I don't mind a challenging game, but losing to a human who has an edge always feels a little weird.
It would be like playing a game and spotting the other player 10 points. Maybe the other person wins, but what does it really matter when they were given a handicap.
And even if the strong role isn't killer, the issue remains. Whatever side has the advantage, losing to them will always feel strange and winning will feel unfulfilling.
Hypothetically, if it was a PvE game, players could set the difficulty to anything they want. It feels a lot different to lose a biased game against a computer than it does a person (but other than that, PvE would likely be awful even if it got a ton of attention).
Second topic:
The devs probably consider her a bit weak at the baseline. Then, the player can choose how to make her stronger.The problem I have with this: what is the baseline? Brown, yellow, etc? Because right now if I lose to a killer running absolute best addons its like, yeah, of course the killer won, they gave themselves the handicap. And if the killer runs no addons, I'm like what an amazing killer, that was really impressive on their part.
Where's the line though where I should neither think the killer gave themselves too much strong stuff nor did they overcome a handicap the match was fair?
This is a both sides issue as well, losing to four survivors all with syringes has a somewhat similar feeling.
The answer might be: none of us should worry that much about it. Which I think is an absolutely fine position to take. But if anyone is concerned with balancing the game, addons seem the obvious place to begin.
Ideally, to me, the baseline should be clearer and any addon past the baseline should carry pros and cons to keep it even. That ship has sailed long ago I suspect, but I feel like a lot of difficulties about the game flow from that.
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