http://dbd.game/killswitch
Do you think it would be a good idea to make repair speed perks not stacking?
Since haste can no longer stack, I wonder if it would be possible to apply this concept to other mechanics and I would like to hear your opinion on this.
Would it be really bad if this concept applied to generators for both survivors and killers?
With this change many perks could be improved, for example: Thanatophobia, Dying light, Overzealous, Friendly competition, Resilience etc.
Comments
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To be honest repair speeds stacking seems like something that needs addressing way more than haste/hindered stacking. I still don't understand why they want to nuke haste/hindered stacking builds when most builds these days revolve around gen speeds, not haste/hindered.
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It won't do much, because most of the gen speed stacking really revolves around toolboxes, the number of charges the toolboxes have, and how quickly the toolbox charges get used.
It would be way more useful to just nerf the 32 charge toolboxes to only have 16 charges instead.
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I'm not in favour of removing any type of stacking. Having less creativity is not a good thing. If the devs want to address over-stacking buffs, then they should impose hard caps. Let players stack perks and add-ons, but place a limit on how high those buffs can go.
Although, I think the devs are trying to streamline the game by removing variety (stacking and map variants so far), so removing options might be the ultimate goal and not just a byproduct.
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100% and it's the biggest thing I've requested of this game for about three years now. If haste can't stack and slowdown/block can't stack and hinder can't stack, why can repair speed? It seems absurd you can stack multiples on a gen, with repair speed perks, and toolboxes that buff repair. I am fine with stacking multiple people on a gen to get a boost, but not with also toolboxes and gen perks, that's too much. It is a problem, it's been a problem.
With a limit on stacking repairs, several mid to lower tier Killers may not feel the need to bring strong generator slowdown or block as often, and may not tunnel as much. Threegenning would have no point and die. Genrushing would no longer exist or be a complaint and would also die as a playstyle. Survivors could breathe and run other perks, and Killers would not need as many buffs or nerfs. There would be no need to push how fast a Killer can move across the map because the baseline of how fast a gen can go would be equally fair to Blight as to Trapper. The game could finally balance and new gen types could be explored, like the blood gens, if Survs want faster gens. You could cap the gens at 80 charges again without Killers feeling left in the dust.
I would take it one step further for gen speed in particular both sides though: Cap it at no faster than 25% faster or slower. You cannot go faster no matter what you stack; no more of these insanely quick genpushing builds, no more of the old slowdown to a crawl. No more.
No more stacking repair or drain speeds of gens. Cap the max for any perk or item at 25%.
Frankly I think the same could be done for sabo speeds but that might be asking a bit much.-4 -
If this resulted in a reevaluation of some perks I guess I could see it, but I don't think its really an issue.
The difference though is there is a direct competition in the haste/hindered issue, killer speed vs survivor speed. If the survivor speed increases too much, killer can't catch them, if the hindered increases too much survivors really have no actions to take.
It doesn't work the same way for gens. Each slowdown perk gets less value, and each stacked gen increase speed just yields the same benefit (i.e. if Deja is worth a perk slot for 0.06 charges a second, and Resi is worth a perk slot for 0.09 charges a second, what's wrong with two perk slots for 0.15 charges a second?). This isn't like the speed issue where at certain break points the game becomes unplayable.
Investing multiple perk slots toward a certain strategy is not inherently a problem unless it breaks an aspect of the game.
Also, I don't think there are nearly as many issues. The problem with gen speed if too fast is usually toolboxes, which this wouldn't really address at all, and many of the slowdown perks on the killer side have been nerfed (i.e. the upcoming penti) making them more reasonable.
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Yeah, unless that means we are getting a busted “super-repair” perk, since everything seems to come with a “but...” nowdays. I'm in favor of no more stacking of any kind.
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I'd prefer no haste, slow, repair speed, or regression stacking. It'd also be a LOT easier to balance around.
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If it means buffing each individual perk to make it worth it standole I am in. Like Deja Vu not stacking with other boosts but gives you flat 10% or something.
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I frankly think the 32 charge Toolboxes are the big culprit yes, and need addressing. It's absurd you can stack a 32 charge box with MORE recharge and then also bring perks to recharge it, and also they do the gens at increased speed. That adds up. If four people bring boxes like that, especially if they are coordinated and good Survivors, it's very hard for some Killers on some maps to deal with. That's really unfair to them, but it's nothing for someone like Blight or Ghoul.
I say address that first, and then look at gen repair and slowdown. Supercharge boxes are the big big issue, I would rather toolboxes be used only for Sabo and not repair at all - I actually sometimes feel unfairly buffed when I use these as Survivor so I rarely bring them anymore, I prefer medkits and maps to help my team.
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I understand their point in preventing Survivors from Haste stacking since it prevent situations where Survivors can take the Killer hostage by running structures in a way that they will never be caught, but at the same time, restricting Killer's tools doesnt make sense to me.
Haste helps chases end faster but they will still never be "meta" enough to surpass 4 slowdown perks. Running 4 Haste perks ensures you have quick chases but that's it, you gain nothing else, you have no slowdown, the builds were strictly just meme builds from how mediocre they were (at best). Haste on Killer was paramount to what they want to achieve, preventing situations where Survivors cannot be caught.
Part of me also feels like we are removing a part of DBD history that we will never get back. Trying out 4 Haste Perks on Clown for the first time was an experience that I really enjoyed, and Id hate to see that experience be gone for new players, who will never have the opportunity to try it. :(
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The issue is though, four slowdown WAS already nerfed. Many times. It's still used because due to how fast gens can go, many Killer players feel they may need it. Some feel they need it to practice chase. Some feel they need it due to weak kit. Some players are not very good and genuinely do need that much slowdown. And of course, some are just jerks who want the game to be miserable for the other side. It was nerfed by nerfing these perks, nerfed with the gen kick limit, and nerfed by killing three genning as a strategy. This is okay and fine, IMHO.
The issue is nothing related to repair speed also got a looking at to say, "huh, maybe we shouldn't allow Survivors to control the gens this well when they only have five to repair but the Killer must hook three times, and then expect Killers to NEED to run generator control if they lack mobility?"
I agree chase will not really ever be the meta, but it's healthier to encourage balanced builds like chase and hex and boon and healer than it is generator repair/lockdown builds. That's why I think both sides need a cap and/or not stacking repair buff/nerf like this. That way you can buff things like Pop Goes the Weasel or even Deja Vu (super helpful for newer players especially) and not have to WORRY about the problems with it. You could buff Pentimento again, buff Ruin again. You would not have to worry about as lopsided a match if you know losing Ruin doesn't completely ruin your ability to control and pressure, or not cleansing Pentimento would make it near impossible to do gens with a skillcheck or scream build. You would be able to experiment with other items and not just toolbox toolbox toolbox out of fear of a four slowdown Blight every round. It would FREE us, though at the cost of removing two playstyles people find generally unfun to deal with: heavy slowdown, and genslamming.-2 -
I think survivor items in general are somewhat of a problem. You can bring nothing and be at a slight disadvantage or bring a super cracked toolbox and be a massive advantage.
Chests are also worthless right now. So what i would think is they do a rework of chests where "bringing" an item actually just spawns it in a chest somewhere that only you can open (and see the aura of) to force you to run over to it and pick it up out of the chest. This would then be a buff to the chest perks which are pretty horrible for killers as it is, and could a boon to chest perks for survivor, maybe things like plunderer can make your item stronger when you loot it from the chest, and so on. Or maybe plunderer lets you open someone elses chest to get a copy of their item or tons of other potential effects.
Then if you don't bring an item, you still spawn a chest, but its a random item with random addons.
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Given how unpopular the perks are I do not think they are an issue currently. Gen speed is for the most part balanced well currently, with some egregious exceptions like bnps & juiced up toolboxes. Again, the majority of players are not running these things so I really do not see an issue.
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The efficiency penalty is there
Toolboxes are another thing
Or maybe taking a look at base Gen repair speeds as compared to everything else
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I'm on board with making repair speed not stack, and this should've been done years ago. The extremes of gen speeds is way, way too far.
The big issue though is how to communicate that to the player what's happening. Like with haste, they made it so you can see the haste bonus on the UI, which is a pretty clear indicator that the biggest bonus applies.
I'm not sure how they would communicate that without just putting the percentage near the arrows under the progress bar.
The focus on haste is probably due to having people scream at them for months about how broken 3% haste is. This is the other result of them listening to that feedback, after deleting MFT.
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because it's the easy bad-aid fix that doeant address the main problem if the game...
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I agree, removing stacking in general - when the game advertises itself to allow synergy isn't a great move.
They hardly buffed any of the Haste related perks (you can argue that they're coming in future updates) - however, the line of reasoning that haste perks cannot stack when both survivors and killers bring these perks into the game for a meme or just to test out different builds aren't the play and just shifts more people into running meta perks.
People can argue that MFT+Hope is strong, while understanding that MFT+Hope only became a thing to counter Kaneki and not all the time did people run these perks as Hope is an endgame perk.
So, even with the update introducing a haste perk (Duty of Care, more situationally used and predominantly shines in end game) - it kills both creativity for both sides, while other combinations are way more problematic OR puts people into simply only having one haste perk when players in the past would have variety. It's not a good look to limit players on what they can and cannot use and then ignore the other Haste perks. Adding 1% of Dark Theory does nothing as it can be snuffed within milliseconds and the problem is the niche situations of being within chase of a boon.
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I remember when the devs buffed Deja Vu and said they were going to nerf it after the anti 3 gen mechanic was introduced. Nope, still hasn't been nerfed. I also remember when the devs said they nerfed healing and Medkits to make injuries more impactful. Then they giga buffed Resurgence and introduced the new survivor's perks so you can basically heal in 1 second. I don't get it at all
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They probably said that just to avoid backlash at that time and then completely forgot about it.
Post edited by MissiCiv on3 -
Judging by the reaction of haste/hinder stacking being removed I'd say no
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high MMR survivor here. With the lobbies i get in with sweat killers, idk how we even get 4 gens done. So many killers have mobility, constant pressure and gen slowdown. I think gens are TOO slow. A fully juiced toolbox doesn't even complete a gen halfway and still takes too long. I think the people complaining about gens flying are just terrible killers probably tunneling. Removing gen speed stacks wont make you better. Just draw out your inevitable loss. After playing blood moon, completing 5 standard gens is so boring and tedious.
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Making things not stack is the way to go IMO, but it is also harder to implement. I think it would be the more elegant solution to have things not stack or not being used in synergy instead of nerfing individual Perks. Because nerfing individual Perks also hurts people who use only one or two of those, but it was the easier solution for the Devs. So everyone complaining about Slowdown-Perks being nerfed some time ago - you can thank those Killers who thought they need to bring 4 of them, when realistically one or two were enough.
And ideally the Devs would have done something to prevent those Perks from working with each other, discouraging people to bring 4 of them while players who rely on one or two are not affected.
Same with progression, there should be a upper limit how fast things can progress (and also regress/slowed down). I dont really see anything for Gens which would have been needed to be done, since outside of fantasy scenarios where 4 Survivors bring BNPs or stuff like that, Gens dont really reach the critical limit of being done way too fast.
However, we had this with healing - here the Devs should have put a feature in place which limits healing to a certain max speed. There was never a problem with players healing quicker, there was a problem with players healing in 4 seconds by themselves. All the Medkit-Nerfs would have probably not been needed or at least not in that capacity if the Devs would have made stacking all the stuff impossible. Like, you can still stack Botany, Green Medkit, Desperate Measures or whatever was used back then, but you will not go under a certain amount of time you will have to spend to heal yourself.
And things like that should just be the way to go - a Gen can only take a maximum and minimum amount of time. Healing can only take a maximum and minimum amount of time. Of course people would complain because it would remove "fun" and "interesting" builds (because it is so fun to heal yourself in 4 seconds or make Gens take over 2 minutes to complete, like both have been there in the past…/s), but overall it would be more healthy and would make it easier for future designs.
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I would only agree to no stacking ONLY if there was another objective(s) that was needed to escape. In this instance it could be changed so that it take less time to fix gens as there would be no stacking, but even if all 5 are complete (or some), you still need to do something else; aside from the exit gate obviously. Killers like to complain that survivors are rushing gens and they need slowdown, but when there is nothing else to do aside from that (if you're not in chase), then that's a bigger game issue.
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I personally don’t mind stacking per se. I’d prefer going with a cap on how fast you can go.
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