Good job on the anti-camp

because the "anti-camp" the Devs implemented was called "anti-facecamp". You can't complain the anti-facecamping system is not working against camping when the system wasn't designed around camping.

So here's the thing. I get that the bar is yellow. Fantastic. They've created a system that makes a progress bar go yellow when the kill is face camping. Wonderful.

Since it was an edit, you seem to have missed this:

What, exactly, is choosing to stay on hook doing that not having AFC at all accomplishes? Both with it without it are "wasting the killers time" because they're standing at the hook, in this case hitting someone repeatedly.

And if jumping off hook into face camping is the wrong play then this mechanic is not just bad at combatting face camping, it's making the situation actively worse for survivors who choose to jump off here.

I keep going back to "what does this do", and, for two years now, the answer is "it's anti-FACE camping" and the result is that the killer has to stand farther away from the hook, eventually. It doesn't stop face camping for at least 20 seconds, and if the killer backs up slightly farther away they can circumvent it entirely. The barest minimum of effects on the player's behavior.

It isn't solving that survivors are trading in that scenario, it isn't solving that killers can still stand at the hook and do nothing (especially since proxying is generally more effective than face camping anyway), and it isn't generating gameplay since the killer is still effectively afk but in a slightly different spot. It's not solving those issues, and apparently it wasn't trying to.

The only thing, we've been told, that this AFC mechanic actually does, is combat and punish FACE camping.

But it doesn't. And demonstrably so.

And maybe it's just not working as intended, or bugged, but that's not the argument I'm getting from you, it's that it is doing what it's supposed to. I think we're both in agreement that the mechanic isn't bugged, but when I can show that it isn't working in its intended, only purpose, then there's this argument that occurs that somehow "it's working, bro. trust."

So the end result then is that the mechanic is meaningless, since I'm saying right now that having this in a face camp scenario apparently means that using it is the wrong play. The player on hook should act as though it doesn't exist to get maximal value, using it is a detriment. Which, in other words means: the killer cannot misplay around this mechanic, facecamping, or not, is a win-win for the killer who has decided to stay at the hook.

The biggest indicator to me that this mechanic is insufficient is the community reaction. There are always at least some killers on this forum at least who will decry every change in the game. Yet as soon as AFC released, people realized that this isn't an effective or meaningful mechanic. No one complained after launch, because it's trivial. And the only thing we've seen for two years now, is "it's not anti-camp, it's anti-FACE camp" with a zillion upvotes. Which is generally intended to mean "of course the mechanic does nothing, it's not supposed to, and don't change it because it's fine if it does nothing".

And yet, when I point out that "hey, this mechanic seems to do effectively nothing", I get a flurry of pushback and downvotes because those same people do not want a mechanic that actually deters camping, or FACE camping in any way. If there's one constant on these forums, it's that (for some people) you simply cannot make any change that might impact how killers play in a meaningful way.

I advise you to go back and search the forums (here and Steam) prior to this feature. Yes, you will find complaints about camping but will also find complaints about facecamping. It was still possible to stand in front of the hook with a one shot killer. Thus why complaints about facecamping were still thrown about.

You also said this thread was about anti-facecamp when the title says otherwise.

You're not really explaining anything as much as you are just ignoring their arguments and pretending they don't understand how the feature works.

When being face camped the survivor's best choice is to wait 69 seconds, unhook right before the next stage, give the best possible chase, and repeat for the next hook to let their teammates rush generators.

The fundamental problem here is this. If the feature is named "anti-face camp" then why wasn't face camping prevented? The face camping still happened. It's not named "buy your teammates time while you get face camped."

It does not address or even attempt to fix the issue that face camping makes the game a less fun experience for the player getting camped. The entire reason people dislike camping.

What I don't understand at all is why we ever got AFC when healthy hook grabs were removed. That was the only thing making face camping deadly at that point. Proxy camping has the same effect as face camping when resources are down and you're injured.

The amount of survivors that either don’t understand or don’t care that the bar fills slower when they are also near is wild. Because like why are you looping the killer right beside me 😩 I could have been yodel lee hee whoood off this hook😭

What will be done for the survivors in a full pre-made team purposly using this re-work in their advantage to gen rush?

Since people in a squad will have real time comms such as texting, voice chat.

Killer cant counter play that even if they try only meta ability ones can which makes the game fully one sided choice.

Do enlighten me what do you guys in the team have planned for people who are using that for their advantage? Would prefer if my questions are not ignored since all the devs seem to be the same and dont really give an answer to what can be done to make SWFs become equal footing to casual players randoms?

Already caught one person on forum stating their games are unbearable with randoms which apperently means that they refuse to play the game because they simply cant properly play the game unless they use texting or vc for their advantage.

No perk in game can counter real time comms between swfs.

Mandy you seriously going to allow people treating each other like this? Its better if you explain to them what my idea is about so people stop downvoting and calling me out on something else entierly?

Whats the point of you not standing by someone to avoid further conflict and arguing on forums.

Its in your duty to do so, so i ask of you to do something and act.

2 people so far have decided to terminate their account who have seen my vision and idea in the wider terms, they both had decent stats and played both sides.

Bold claim? Buddy its their job duty role thats what they get paid to do.

All they have been doing it saying congrats and mainly respond to most utterly useless discussions on the forums.

Chat tools are neither okay or fair and killer no matter how sweaty does not have any external factors like them to use for their advantage, even running meta ability killers is not viable, just forces player hands to main those killers because the game is simply not a true asymmetrical genre game.

If it was it would have methods and ways to nullify chat tools to advantage.

Bold claim? Buddy its their job duty role thats what they get paid to do.

Actually they primarily relay information between the community and the design team. None of them are the voice of BHVR.

They also have quite a number of posts to deal with every day. If all it took was saying 'look at my issue, it's special', everyone would do it and they probably wouldn't have much time for anything else.

This is a community discussion forum, not a ask the devs anything forum. It's not even a suggestion forum, that though they do have if you wish to offer suggestions.

Chat tools are neither okay or fair

BHVR has repeatedly said they are okay.

The escape rates for SWFs aren't anything astronomical either so their data doesn't indicate the problem people seem to perceive exists.

First of all, it is their job still you are just trying to explain their roles in wider terms, they still get paid to spread information and relay information as they should, they can also not spread it if they choose not to and they can choose to not even respond and be silent about things and yet still get paid by each month lol.

To get back to you about chat tools, no its not okay and it will never be okay, its unfair external tool that is in the gray zone between considered cheating and being suspicious.

At this point what is there to stop killers who dont run meta killer to using external cheating tools? Its basically the same then as using chat tools?

What about survivors that simply dont have any friends and dont want to play in premades just to win, they will also run external cheating tools?

So again i ask you, do you see any difference between a hacking external tool and a chat tool external method to know location of killer

No wonder why there are so many hackers in the game, when the game is not even an asymmetrical pvp game.

What does your moral compass tell you?

Like this is not a trick question i just want to know the answer to how people think so i dont waste my time in trying to explain what is wrong and what is okay.

Are you the type of person that tells its users "this is okay" and then go ahead and use it or are you the type of person who will still go with your own moral compass and consider maybe its not okay maybe its wrong.

Lets take an example of a minecraft server hypixel, they allow certain mods that enter the so called "gray zone" and yes gray zones still exists no matter what.

Just because company says that its okay does not mean its okay by human logic.

Their reason and answer might lie in money status and growth.

Hypixel allows users to run certain mods for their skyblock and prompts like removing keyinputdelay.

So what about other users that get beaten because of that just because a company allows it does not mean its morally okay.

Actually just wondering now where the persons moral compass sits, and if killers were to toggle external hacking tools for their advantages too ONLY againts SWFs is that also okay

Are you the type of person that tells its users "this is okay" and then go ahead and use it or are you the type of person who will still go with your own moral compass and consider maybe its not okay maybe its wrong.

Lets take an example of a minecraft server hypixel, they allow certain mods that enter the so called "gray zone" and yes gray zones still exists no matter what.

I have no knowledge of minecraft.

You're going to need to be a lot more explicit in your moral framework if you want this to be a philosophy discussion.

The game provides both sides with a difficulty slider if they wish to take it. You can play Nurse, Blight, etc with full meta build, or you can play a lower tier killer and bring no addons. Survivors can enter a map with full stacked commodious toolboxes or medkits in SWF, or they can be paired up by the match maker, bring no items, and run meme builds.

I personally don't play any of the overpowered builds because I don't find them enjoyable.

However, I don't believe any other player should or needs to play in the manner I do if they don't enjoy it. They can play the game within the guidelines laid out by BHVR. If they say its not cheating, then its not cheating.

If you think the game might be better or worse without certain elements they are open to discussion, but that's a much different topic than cheating.

Just because company says that its okay does not mean its okay by human logic.

It sounds like you are confusing morality with your own personal preferences for what you want the game to be.

The killer has no more right to turn on a hacking tool if they somehow knew they were hitting a SWF then a group of soloq players on meme builds would have the right to turn on a hacking tool because they hit a Nurse on a full meta build kill streak.

Thats my point just add a machine learning system that prevents any of that, hacking thing needs to be adressed to, i read a wonderful post about how it should be fixed by a person they seem to know their deal.

I know my deal with machine learning since i am majoring ML and Neural networking

I never said i had problem with SWF, i never said SWF should be removed as a mechanic, i myself said i do sometimes rarely play with buddies but mostly solo q, and i never said i main killer, i always said i stand neutral grounds.

I am a human too and hold a grudge too, i am againts meta ability killers who stack perks on top of that to fully mop the floor without much skill involved + running DPI trigger builds and macros to help them too.

I am also againts people who stack perks based off of the fact they play with their buddies, like the perk profiles exist, majority of people i met here who play with their buddies dont run punishing perks either, but on forums its a slight 1% players but the rest of those who do probably most likely very much use their comms in a bad unfair advantage to stack current perk values + boost their buddies mmr because they simply hate playing casuals.

I love playing survivors its fast queues.

I love playing myers as a stalk stealth build it feels nice to hook and get 3 kills to feel like a proper win.

They can go in hatch i dont mind, i am a respectful player sportmanlike towards everyone, i dont even hold grudge when im in match i spread around play like i normally would no matter if its swf or not i treat everyone like they are in a party, if they underperform i dont play as aggressive i do it to get points and gradings over kills and wins and help them too (not in a boosting way or anything like that)

But what would a machine learning tool do that they don't have? They want a 60/40 kill rate. They have a 60/40 kill rate. They're literally accomplishing the balance objective they want to achieve.

Also its no secret that certain builds/addons are much more powerful than others. Its part of the game and always has been. That is something that is in the game intentionally.

More broadly, BHVR doesn't want a game that is balanced in every trial. You're trying to fix something they don't think is broken (i.e. its not that they don't have the tool you think they need, they just aren't going for what you think they should). The game is filled with massive levels of randomness, guessing games, and things like indoor maps that favor some killers and disadvantage others. The fact that one side might have an advantage is not something they are trying to change (in my opinion they are right on favoring variety over balance, and that it might be inevitable in an asym anyway, though I think they go too far many times).

Okay thats all i wanted to hear that you dont like playing like that and think players shouldnt play like that.

I said the opposite for the latter part of that.

I don't play in certain ways because I don't enjoy them. Everyone else is free to play the game in a way they find fun within the strictures of BHVR's rules. I do have opinions on game design changes that I think BHVR could incorporate that would make it an overall more enjoyable game for the majority of players, but I also recognize that such issues are considerably more complicated than they usually appear.

I'm a mechanical engineer, so you'll have to forgive me, but why would they implement that system when the one they have fulfills their goals?

My entire post which cant be found in feedback section is based off of fixing and reinforcing current MMR system since it cant keep track of such short player numbers, 50k avg or lower is not enough for MMR system to work without flaws, if they make it any tighter it will be worse, if any looser, it will get worse.

So 50k you cite is the Steam count, they have a lot more players on console (+ Epic).

Also, while its been a bit, the devs have said they are happy with how the MMR system works and most matches end up with people who are really close together in MMR (especially during prime hours). They have updates to MMR coming, which I expect will be minor changes, but some people think are going to be major things.

Im almost sold to certain point to believe their current system is flawed because players that boost each other in a party then stop playing and then play again and then shuffles the MMR rapidly confuses the stats making it very unpredictable to buff and nerf the perks by default.

One other person suggested instead of my system there should be a system for dynamical maps that are fully asymmetrical and never the same so you cant go and loop that same house or coridor and such.

I guess i just want a perfect system and a perfect asymmetrical genre game which they can accomplish and make it so the only real skill that exists and cant be counter played is how quickly someone adapts to the entire map layout, you cant loop the same loop it wont be there, fully rng game though and where perks only help you to that extent

I dont know since to me it wont handicap to that extent its not that serious drastic changes its more like a patrol police system to those who really want to milk the whole cow that already gave them comms when they play in a team.

Just jumping in to say that SWF wasn’t designed and allowed in game from the start.
The game was initially designed to be solo players who couldn’t communicate and a lack of information about your teammates, the killer, and their perks. It was added due to popular demand later in the 1.0.3 patch.

There is this interview with MCote in 2016 when Nurse was added describing the lack of information part around 1:15 mark

The specific issue there is that DBD should have had comms from the very beginning. It's the only asymm that doesn't and it shows. Whenever the idea is presented, players advocate against it and then get upset later that friends are talking on Discord. Can't have it both ways.