http://dbd.game/killswitch
Something has to be done about clown
He has become a tunneling monster. Take away the fact that all clowns only use yellow bottles now which i though was what BHVR was trying to get them to not do use one bottle. Now all clowns proxy camp the hook and they are so fast you can not get to safety. I feel like BHVR just doesnt know what to do and is so detached from the game.
Comments
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I'm just gonna say it, we kinda have to blame ourselves.
At least, all of us who demanded they keep haste stacking as a thing. Sure, BHVR should have known haste clown would be a problem, but the haste stacking is REALLY making it worse.
My complaints about Made For This before the nerf were about this exact situation too, either side, haste stacking ruins the loop-based meta this game has evolved around.-8 -
And yet, the problems didn't appear before they buffed yellows and made them super easy to use as part of a rework nobody really asked for.
Almost as if haste-stacking wasn't the issue. What else could it have been?
And are you really sure that the problem would go away if the new perma-haste Clowns would be somewhat slower, but they used the usual meta perks instead?
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I'm saying it's MUCH worse with haste stacking.
And did we already forget why MFT was nerfed?
Edit: Actually if I recall, their fix for haste originally was only applying the highest % haste at any given moment from powers/perks, so yeah, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad. Clown can still spam it, that's still the #1 problem, but let's not forget the haste stacking is a problem we collectively were angry was taken away in the first place.-2 -
From what I remember hook camping clown realistically is around the same as pre patch. The only difference is now he just sits in yellow gas instead of comboing pink and yellows for nearly the same speed differential at base.
So I ended up doing the math between pre patch and live in terms of speed difference with at least Batteries Included and Rapid Brutality both active
Pre patch with Bleach + Gin using both bottles (115 x 1.23) - 81 = 60.45% speed differential
Post patch with Gin + Sticky Soda using both bottles (115 x 1.27) - 86 = 60.05% speed differential
This means post patch without using pinks you're moving only 50% faster on average which if you wanted the same speed difference as pre patch you would need to dedicate a third perk slot to either Machine Learning or Furtive Chase which on a killer that's already strong in 1v1s the perk slot would be better off spent on slow down. The people complaining about "clowns only use yellows are too fast" is the wrong complaints assuming said clowns are never using pinks. The right complaints would be they made him brainless but that doesn't mean he's some A or S tier as I see some people claim because it's really not that hard to use both bottles and you pretty much can play every tile with both bottles well of course if pink linger meant something.
Pre-patch AND post patch always forced interactions at tiles as clown was ALWAYS good in dead zones. But pinks got designated to "use at strong windows to force medium vaults" with post patch clown because the linger is laughably bad especially with vigil in play. People just need to make some adjustments playing against new clown. Personally I would like old clown back because that was more enjoyable for me to play.Post edited by Brimp on-1 -
… I don’t think they’ll leave Clown as he is. Never. Definitely not. Safe safe. He’s just way too easy to play and like you said, a lot of people play him ultra one-dimensional.
He’s still loopable, body-blockable, all that — so the whole “every Clown tunnels and you can’t get away” thing? Clown was already like that before. Getting away while a Clown tunnels wasn’t exactly easy before either.
I mean, come on, every Clown has tunneled before already xD
And : a Nurse tunneling or a Blight (or some other killers) are way stronger in that regard.
I’d even leave that argument " clown tunnels, you can´t get away" out.
but beside that.. Clown all in all is:
t’s just super boring design. Anyone can play him and gets crazy value for “doing little/being easy.” BHVR somehow has this thing lately where they release or change killers to be “super easy to play but still relatively strong.” :/
And I don’t think they’ll ever leave him as he is right now. I think/hope we’ll see a rework soon.
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Good survivors can still beat the new Clown; all Clown has become is Viable at higher MMRs, which means he must die.
Only Blight, Nurse and Kaneki are allowed such privleges.
Coincidentally does anyone know why I only see Blight, Nurse and Kaneki every game? Its getting really old.-5 -
Of course, he’s beatable… that doesn’t really change anything overall.
I mean.. you really like that design? Um.. only my opinion, but u can make killers strong and suitable for high MMR without making them completely easy and boring (and one-dimensional) to play. I’d like to see many killers buffed to be more viable at high MMR—but definitely not like they’re trying with Clown or like pre-nerf Kaneki… idk
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For me it changes a lot. If theres a killer in the game that can have a 2000 game win streak, against every scenario imaginable, to me that indicates theres no real meaningful counterplay to that killer. Yet your not in here complaining about that killer.
Your in here complaining about Clown, because you deem his power "1 dimensional", a completely subjective take. Having played Clown and against Clown, I gotta say I never once felt bored during the entire process. New clown being a high speed machine feels great; pinks still have uses at certain loops and are great for forcing medium vaults that change misses into hits. Even the man who wrote the 200 page clown guide, whose entire guide is invalidated by this, has gone on the record and said this is all pretty great and fun for Clown. Fighting against clown now translates to cutting chases a little shorter as surv; not greeding and pre-dropping earlier or like nurse, avoiding detection in weaker areas all together until you've got Gen momentum.
There's no shortage of counterplay; the character isn't OP, he's just new and accessible, and a specific group of people don't want to adapt to either of those two things. There's nothing wrong with Clown; and I wish more killers would also recieve similar buffs to push them further into A tier regions to restore Killer in general to the power role in the game.-12 -
He's beatable as long as you have a safe loop and a pallet to use. Eventually you'll run out of those. He is too fast and most clowns use haste builds to make them faster. You can't outrun that, at least my little legs won't carry me fast enough to loop him when he has 35% more haste.
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The critique that you'll run out of pallets as survivor as a resource is applicable to every killer in the game. You can't outrun a wraith,spirit or ghoul either, yet people still find ways to make it work. Some maps are better or worse for either side on rolls of the dice on location and tile arrangement. This is nothing new; again it just boils down to not wanting to adapt to a new killer power.
You arguably have more counter-play against a Clown than you do a Spirit; we aren't even talking about Nurse or Blight.-8 -
Sure, it’s subjective. If you enjoy it—fair enough, go for it. For me, he’s just not it; I find playing him way too boring. I’ve also heard from quite a few Clown mains that they’re pretty unhappy with the changes. But it’s nice to hear finally from people who actually have fun with the changes! :D
but..
I just hope they don’t turn every reworked killer into some “super easy to play” formula. I’ve heard a lot of criticism from Clown mains who played him for his macro gameplay complexity, which now basically becomes obsolete. (this is why i think they will change him again) I get the frustration there; personally, I also find Clown way too easy to play (and no, not OP).
Whether the new Clown is “A-tier” is a tough call. I think other killers still have “more” going on, though honestly, I don’t put much stock into these whole “tier lists.” For me, there’s “Nurse… Blight.” And then everyone else. "the big rest."
Also,for the others beside nurse/blight: where a killer sits on that “tier list” shifts massively depending on the map they get, the teams they face, and what perks those teams bring. So sure, you can roughly categorize killers as “strong,” “good,” “okay,” “bad,” or “trash.” But assigning an exact spot on a tier list? Too many other factors influence that to be reliable.
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Clows yellow bottle should be back to the way they were before mabe less haste and have it so the bottle trigger after 1.7 seconds insted of throwing it at their feet for instant haste
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With respect, the mindset that only killers who require an X-amount of hours or put a premium on "skill" (that is a lot lower of an investment than you think) is the reason Nurse, Blight and Ghoul are dominating the upper echelons and why you see the same boring meta of Grim Embrace + DMS + Pain Res on nearly every killer; their trying to close that gap of power.
There's nothing wrong with making a killer accessible and strong; not every element of a killers power requires counterplay. For instance; there is no real counterplay to getting broken through infection to plague unless you chose to make a very dubious decision and cleanse. I can speak from experience as someone who likes to run full healing build its incredibly demoralizing to know all of my perks are pretty much useless.
Doesn't mean Plague is OP, even though she's not particularly hard to play and has a "1 dimensional power".
I also want to point out that the last section of tiering killers being hogwash is a crazy take that can only exist from spreadsheet gaming.-5 -
Sure... but.. Plague is also super, super, SUPER easy to counter. And not this strong. And y.. Learning Nurse isn’t as hard as many think, same with Blight. Good curve control with Billy isn’t rocket science either. BUT: every mistake you make can be costly. Really costly. Blink wrong with Nurse once? Good players turn that straight into a huge disadvantage and get distance immediately. Use all your rushes with Blight wrong? You get punished hard.
That’s exactly what I feel is missing with the new Clown. At least for me, personally.
yipp, sure, the boring bottle reload time is a ‘punishment.’ But honestly, it feels way more like super boring downtime than an actual ‘I messed up and now I’m paying for it’ kind of punishment
But hey, everyone likes different things :D. So go for it when u have fun. And glad to hear from someone who actually enjoys the changes. (So far I’ve mostly heard negative feedback (yup most from killer side), even though they definitely made him stronger
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Plagues ease of counter depends on a variety of factors; from team-mates, tile arrangement and strength, to the map itself. The same thing can be said of Clown.
You're now speaking about misusing power and getting punished, which is like saying old Dead Hard is fine because people Dead Harded for distance directly into a wall. We're not talking about people misuing there power. If you're trying to suggest Clown never gets punished for making bad decisions or not knowing how to loop you'd be wrong; four man stacks can still make a Clown out of the Clown even when he's playing correctly. There are tiles you cannot haste your way past. If all you're doing with clown is lunging speed rush at every pallet you will get punished at high MMR. Would you like videos of someone playing Clown at a high MMR and getting countered as new speed Clown?
I have a video of literally 2 DC's and 1 AFK getting carried by a single player running the clown.
Edit: There is never any meaningful distance gained on Mobility killers for their mistakes, like you tried to suggest with Nurse and Blight. The evidence for that just isn't there and comes down to the operator not the vehicle. It might FEEL that way, but thats all it is, a FEELING. The very nature of their high mobility negates that entirely and is the reason they are so high on power scale. Suggesting Blight can have any meaningful punishment when he's been used for 2k winstreaks is patently false and is just "When I dead hard I just run into the wall!". You're asking me to believe in 2000 games a man never made a single mistake with his power or 8000 survivors with 32,000 perks at the height of MMR were a bunch of bumbling clowns.-4 -
It’s not about “misusing” the power. It’s about human mistakes—things everyone makes, even the best Blight and Nurse players. And the amount of focus and concentration each killer demands to be played consistently at a high level for hours.
It’s not about playing the killer or their kit “wrong,” but simply about the human errors that happen even to the best players.
I never said Clown never gets punished—where would that even be? But when you play Clown, mistakes don’t feel nearly as costly or punishing. You recover faster from every mistake and can do more with those moments.
And overall, you don’t need to invest nearly as much focus as when I’m playing Nurse for 8 hours straight, for example.For me, all that just makes Clown super boring, to be honest - but as i said, glad to hear that someone like the recent changes. I mean, its fine ? People enjoy different things :D
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Well again its in your wording; "mistakes don't FEEL nearly as costly or punishing". The evidence does not support that though, it's a feeling. When you show me the new Clown with a 2k winstreak I'll concede my point, but the reality is there are killers who are objectively NOT punished or punished enough for misusing their power, and they happen to be Nurse, Blight specifically, and to some extent Ghoul.
We again find ourselves back at the perceived excuse for that which is investment or "skill". So its okay that Blight or Nurse, if operated correctly, cannot be meaningfully beaten/countered and I just have to respect their skill, but the Clown who can be beaten/countered even when played correctly I must not respect or accept, because he allegedly required less investment? Or that I didn't FEEL his misuse as telegraphed as Blights or Nurse i.e. direct feedback, regardless of outcome.
This mindset is the reason the game is in the state that its in to begin with, and if this perception is left unchallenged, then people have no right to complain about the staleness of the Killer Meta, nor constant rotation of Nurse, Blight and Ghoul at the top.-5 -
The new Clown isn’t as strong as Nurse or Blight, if that’s what you’re trying to say? I dont think you will see any (not manipulated) win streak like this with him. but.. Yea, safe safe. And I know Nurse is really tough to beat—hardly any team can keep up with her. But honestly, I’m not too worried about it: I have that one killer where I know I’ll usually win, even if the survivor team makes almost no mistakes. With most other killers, I still need a ton of survivor errors to have a good chance—so I’m totally fine with that and don’t feel bad about it when I play Nurse.
And after a few hours playing Nurse, I also know exactly what I “did” and where my focus was. With Clown, I just don’t get that feeling. To me, he’s simply too “easy” at that point.
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You're literally proving my point.
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If your point is to say the new Clown isn’t “OP,” I’ve never argued the opposite. They did make him stronger, sure, but he’s still not “upper top.” I just find him way too easy to play for what he can do… and don’t think the changes to his core design are that great. (But hey, seems like you actually like how he is now) :D
But if the new "Clown" meta ends up just being that one bottle gets used way more than the others… then they’ll probably push another change afterward.
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"We again find ourselves back at the perceived excuse for that which is investment or "skill". So its okay that Blight or Nurse, if operated correctly, cannot be meaningfully beaten/countered and I just have to respect their skill, but the Clown who can be beaten/countered even when played correctly I must not respect or accept, because he allegedly required less investment? Or that I didn't FEEL his misuse as telegraphed as Blights or Nurse i.e. direct feedback, regardless of outcome."
"The new Clown isn’t as strong as Nurse or Blight, if that’s what you’re trying to say? I dont think you will see any (not manipulated) win streak like this with him. but.. Yea, safe safe. And I know Nurse is really tough to beat—hardly any team can keep up with her. But honestly, I’m not too worried about it: I have that one killer where I know I’ll usually win, even if the survivor team makes almost no mistakes. With most other killers, I still need a ton of survivor errors to have a good chance—so I’m totally fine with that and don’t feel bad about it when I play Nurse. "
There's nothing wrong with Clown.
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It's not just about "skill" alone, but when Behaviour changes something to favor one aspect—like pushing a particular part of a killer’s kit to be used more—and it results in that part being heavily favored as soon as people play efficiently and not meme-style, then that’s a design flaw. It just happens in reverse now, leading to a monotonous, one-dimensional use of the base killer kit, and this time it impacts the entire macro gameplay in a noticeably more boring way.
This is why i think he will change him again. But maybe I´m wrong.
The rest is honestly just like you said—a personal thing and a matter of taste. I just personally enjoy playing Nurse more, for example, because I feel like I need to be more focused. Or if it’s an M1 killer, I tend to prefer ones like Sadako or Myers, because I feel more challenged in both micro and macro gameplay. :D But like I said, tastes differ, and that’s totally okay, right? I mean, I’m genuinely happy for you that you enjoy the new Clown.
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I don't think its a matter of opinion to say a killer who cannot be countered is unhealthy for the game, nor pointing out the hypocrisy of defending a much more egregiously unhealthy killer while going after another which isn't anywhere near in power scaling and objectively healthier for the game state purely because it doesn't float your boat.
I don't really like Plague or Legion; never demanded they be changed purely because I deem their power "boring" and "easy to use".
You needn't worry though, the games history proves my perspective is in the minority, so Clown will get Skull Merchant'd soon enough.
I'm just offering you perspective on why your game sucks and feels like the same crap different day over and over again. It's because you(royal) resist change or identifying the real problem and the community likes feels over reals. Blight and Nurse feel fair even though the evidence runs wildly contrary, but Clown feels unfair, so he's gotta go. Cheers.-6 -
he fact is: Clown was reworked to supposedly make him more 'versatile'—to encourage people to use both bottles more equally, instead of relying mostly on his main one.
I never had an issue with that to begin with (I mean, the main bottle was his core ability—the other one was just a gimmick), but Behaviour clearly thought the gameplay was too one-dimensional.But if things now end up exactly where we started—where one bottle becomes dominant again and the other is barely used—and on top of that, many of the different macro gameplay variants are getting phased out,
then I’d argue that’s actually worse design than before.Take Legion, for example—yes, super boring, no doubt.
But Legion’s mechanic was always Legion’s mechanic.
There was never a point where players invested hundreds or even thousands of hours into mastering a specific playstyle, only to have it broken by a massive rework.
Legion got buffs over time, sure—but never anything that completely flipped their gameplay on its head3 -
I'll just agree to disagree with you here. Spirit is 4.4 and her cooldown is quite long. Clown can just make bottles fast and keep the haste up, also he can hinder you which means even some loops are unsafe.
Maps are always RNG for every killer. Every killer has maps they shine and maps they arent as good in, this doesn't change the fact that clown with 35% haste build is a little overtuned.
Behaviour should have not allowed the haste stacking to continue.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_mm3sIX9Uc
This is Arinad, the forethought on Clown mains and author of the 200 page clown guide, stating he's alright with the changes, despite "mastering a specific playstyle, only to have it broken by a massive rework."
Regardless of BHVR original mechanical intent, the goal was to move Clown up the roster due to his woeful pick rate, out-dated power and weak performance, which by all accounts has succeeded.
People "mastered" old freddy, Forever freddy and the modern freddy, and all of those have flipped his gameplay on their head. Were you as passionate about Freddy as you were clown?-4 -
"Maps are always RNG for every killer. Every killer has maps they shine and maps they arent as good in, this doesn't change the fact that clown with 35% haste build is a little overtuned. "
And as I've stated before, when you show me the 2k Clown winstreak I'll concede to you, but otherwise that's literally a feeling not backed by data.
Spirit has add ons that make her power a guessing game such as everyone hearing the same audio ques everywhere rendering it useless. Likewise another add on which instantly recharges her power if your correctly guessed and stunned her. These aren't even considered her best, where as clowns is 5% extra speed. There's more meaningful counterplay in an opponenent whose fast and I can see than one whose fast and I can't; you don't even need to go above paper to know that.-2 -
tbh… y, you got me. I also thought the old Freddy changes were messy and poorly done. I actually really liked the design when he was completely invisible.
Fun fact: I tried to defend him back then too, more so asking for changes that just fixed the real issues (like people taking too long to get pulled into the dream, etc.)
But thanks for the little nostalgia trip — I really did try to defend “OG” Freddy before the rework turned him into something totally different.
(yesh, i wish the 2016 devs back somehoow)
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Haste stacking is mostly fine as long as a delicate balance is maintain. It adds build variety and generally isn't a problem.
Notice how before the Clown changes, Clown was fine and only a select few would complain about them.
The issue isn't haste stacking, it is the changes to Clown making Yellow Bottles vastly over-perform and not require skillful play with both bottles like old Clown. BHVR should just revert all the Clown changes and then start over with small buffs like the increased reloading speed.
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Most spirit mainers don't use those addons…because they suck. Second the addon that makes her a guessing game.. really? When she's actually near you and in chase you can hear her coming directly at you. That addon only works if shes far away from you… and most survivors who know how to counter spirit knows this.
The stun addon.. sure she has that but again most spirit mainers don't use that addon.
I'm not gonna argue about this. My personal experience with clowns so far is that he's too fast. That's all. I was never against buffing him or changing him, but the haste he gets is too much with the haste stacking perks.
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The real difference here is Spirit forces 50/50 guesses with almost no way to confirm whether your guess was correct—especially around pallets and windows until the moment of truth.
With Clown, even if you’re under pressure, there’s still room for outplay: you can bait throws, use tight loops, or time stuns. That’s far more engaging than just gambling every time you hear a vacuum.
I’d argue Clown is easier to learn but harder to master, while Spirit is hard to read, period—and that difference creates frustration, not fun.
Post edited by Nobody_TM on-1 -
With that call u basically brings back 2018–2019 Spirit, as long as she doesn't have prayer beads.
And today? Spirit has way more counterplay nowadays than this "vacuum into guessin game."-1 -
I don't disagree that Spirit has more counterplay now than the past.
But if you're suggesting there's no guessing around her power she would literally just be a 110 M1 killer, which she is not. Despite her power being very strong you're going to eat downs and some situations there's going to be little displays of skill and just more elements of "I guessed correctly".
Imagine this scenario: You are at the Cow-Tree loop. A strong loop that can be played against Haste Clown and Spirit. You are Injured and gotta make this count. If you're timing this correctly, clown needs to use both bottles to get the down. Spirit however just needs to phase.
Whats more fair or interactive? A killer you can see and possibly can pre-emtpively rotate properly around the slowndown and get the stun (or while unlikely possibly even one extra loop), or guessing which side of the pallet or window phasing spirit is on?
I'd argue getting downed by a killer thats been reduced to "guessing" is more imbalanced and unfun, but I also wouldn't say Spirit is overtuned either. The data doesn't support it.
There are area's that are good and bad for certain killers and scenarios good and bad for different killers. My point is Clown is not overtuned, and people just don't want to learn how to play against something they don't understand. Its a kneejerk reaction.
I can empathize, I still suck at countering singularity.-2
