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If Legion Lost Mending In 2v8, Would They Need Compensation?
People don't like Legion in 2v8. This is not a secret, people will talk about it constantly.
Personally, I don't mind, but the thing that does make Legion a little annoying to me is the same thing as makes them mildly annoying in the main game- Mending sucks and isn't fun, so being made to do it multiple times a match is irksome.
Losing Mending in the main game would necessitate some compensation for Legion, no doubt about it. In 2v8, though…
I don't think it's possible for Legion to not be an exceptional support killer in 2v8 without outright gutting them. If they can run around getting multiple easy injures, they don't need anything else, that sets up their teammate incredibly well.
Without Mending, though, they wouldn't be as annoying to face. Healing isn't hard in 2v8, but it also isn't so free that setting up multiple injuries isn't substantial.
My question, and the thing that makes this a discussion instead of a suggestion, is this: Would Legion need anything else? Any flat buff to their current power, or any replacement effect instead of Mending like a repair penalty or the like? I'm not sure myself.
Comments
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I don't think that's necessarily true, I think Legion could fit into an entirely different niche- the counterplay to Legion is only not to heal because there's no other killer and because that lowers the effectiveness of Feral Frenzy. They can undo the heal quickly, so in the mode with no other risk it makes sense not to heal against them.
If, though, we're meant to understand Legion as explicitly an injury machine that sets up for the other killer, and if the only barrier to undoing their threat is the very accessible healing (both because there are more players to heal you and because Medic is very strong), then the counterplay to a Legion team would be to heal.
Losing Mending would put them in this position. Healing wouldn't be that much of a timesink and 2v8 goes faster anyway, so the point of Legion would be to set up for your teammate and the counterplay to Legion would be to undo that setup.
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I mean… why not?
There's equally higher ability to undo that damage, so what exactly makes it something that doesn't work in this game mode?
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The problem isn't mending. The problem is the movement speed of feral frenzy is so fast, that Legion often hits 4+ survivors with the same feral frenzy.
Legion just needs the movement speed of feral frenzy to get heavily nerfed, so they aren't chaining so many hits with feral frenzy.
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I agree with @Foggyguy that certain killers just don't fit in 2v8 because having a 2nd killer negates the weakness/counterplay of that killer.
Mending is incredibly annoying, but its just one of his problems.
Though there could be a future where we have Legion and Plague in a match and survivors make the decision to stay injured and we're actually in an okay spot again.
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Keep in mind that deep wounds isn't JUST a thing that wastes survivor time when it comes to Legion. Deep wounds is also the difference between if feral frenzy gets refreshed or if it ends. You'd have to come up with a prevention to Legion just stabbing 1 guy back to back with feral frenzy if you removed the deep wounds.
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Now that's a fair point.
I'm sure it could be coded in that Frenzy just ends if the same guy's stabbed twice, though, or that it just doesn't have an effect so all it really does is waste time.
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So a second hit triggers deep wounds and ends the power. The 5th hit allows the down shot or w.e
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Another problem with deep wounds is it is unaffected by Bonus heal ability medic has so it directly hard nerfs the healing classes biggest strength. But the constant healing makes medics required to be there it's a horrible spot. As no other killer power counters one of the survivor powers so hard.
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Im just using this as an example Legion game with multi-stabbing.
The Legion in this gameplay was able to take advantage of the David immediately mending several times to stab him again and prolong the frenzy. It was a misplay on the David's part doing this while in the center of the map repeatedly. Im just wondering if there's a way to figure things out to prevent obvious cheese while ALSO punishing survivor misplays like the David who's ALLOWING the multistabbing.
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I don't think mending is the issue, mending is already faster than normal in 2v8 and it's also the determining factor of who Legion is allowed to hit in Frenzy and who they can't hit without losing power. So removing mending would have the side effect of breaking that as well.
I would try just reducing the speed bonus for consecutive hits and if that's still not enough maybe don't allow Frenzy downs in 2v8.
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You can still spread out and do gens. All the counterplay that existed to legion before still exists. You can even rebuild pallets to camp to guarantee a power loss if you play it patiently.
I'm convinced most of the complaints about 2v8 are people who exclusively play survivor anymore.-6 -
Legion needs to be limited to 1 free injure with frenzy then be immediately put into fatigue and cool down. Too weak? Then just delete him.
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They made this, but he's not available in 2v8 and people are still asking for him to be nerfed because you have to offset the fact that putting one person into mending needs to have more effects to it to be a power.
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Except he moves as fast as the flash and there are 8 targets at all time. He just needs 2 hits to go from one side of the map to the next.. no counter play of "just running away" works. This isn't 1v4 where he's slower and has halve the targets... Pallets are literally your only option to mess this up. Or a well times locker jump in and out which sadly is reliant on ping for working properly.
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I already laid out a way Legion could work with a second killer. What makes that not a workable idea?
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The problem we see is that your issue can be boiled down to "those killers work well together"…so how the hell is anything other than gutting, full reworking, or removal going to solve that?
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Would you care to elaborate on those actual issues?
It may help to reference my original reply to you, sometimes articulating it as a response to someone else's position makes it clearer.
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Gee, could it be that a factor of que times being long is that its a limited time mode where killers can play with their friends and murder survivors?… ya know…just a thought.
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Pretty sure they're similar as the last times. Well past 25 min as killer. It was similar the first iteration, similar the second iteration, and again and again. The difference is this time you dont feel it as bad due to "play while you wait". Trying to throw the que time aint showing nothing on legion and oni.
The problem is this topic is trying to discuss how to make legion more bearable. At least that's how it seems to us. Your saying "cant do it, both oni and legion need gone because they work well together".
Legion and Oni's powers literally are incompatible on a fundamental level in 2v8 because their powers are designed around there
notbeing another killer.…as an aside it seems that both their powers are extremely compatible [(of two people) able to have a harmonious relationship: well-suited.] with each other which is basically what your issue is. They help each other's weakness. They have synergy. Can't have any disscussion when you dismiss it outta hand.
…also what does "glib" mean? Kinda just assuming its an insult but not sure.
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…well gotta say your a lucky devil then and we're jealous. Was roughly 20+ish minutes each time one of us tried as killer. The bonus to that is its been the same for us back then as is now so its not all much longer.
The thing is they do. We've been able to open a door with them together, we've been slaughtered with them together. Your ammo and gun doesn't work cause its not an instant win with a oni and legion combo. They still gotta work for their kills, your still able to outplay them, and assuming your team is competent, you have a chance to escape. Through the doors even. Just because its more difficult to go against killers who synergize well, doesn't mean they need gone.
Insincere and sarcasm is two different things. Those wait times have been the same for us and the people we play with. Using wait times literally doesn't prove anything to us cause there's been no change to us. Also we're pretty sure we can be sincere and mocking at once.-1 -
It's not as simple as that. @Foggyguy does have a good point here.
Queue times have, as far as I know, never been this horrible in 2v8. According to your statement, you would think that those would be worst when the game mode released, as it was when the option was the freshest for every player.
It's not fresh anymore. It's blatantly obvious that survivors don't want to play 2v8. Now this has multiple reasons obviously with no new classes being one of them.
It is undeniably though, that a killer combo that feels incredibly out of place and has proven to be a bad idea is one reason as well.
It's a game. If people don't want to play because it isn't fun for them, a sentiment I can wholeheartedly understand in regard to facing Legion + oni (or legion + a variety of killers), they will simply not engage in that game mode. They will either not play the game mode or not play the game at all, looking for something else that pays more respect to their time.
Adding Legion this early into the game mode was simply put a mistake.
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So far, you've mentioned two things that I can discern - the existence of a second killer, and the fact that Legion's counterplay is normally to stay injured.
I've given an answer to both of those things. Was there something you disagreed with in that answer?
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But as you say there's multiple reasons. And there's been no major increase for us since legions introduction. We can't remember (or seem to find apparently) which iteration they were added but as the wait time stays the same, it seems to us it's legion themselves isn't doing a major job scaring survivors away.
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Hot take: freshly uncaged survivors should have "endurance" against Legion's slashes. Legion should not be able to keep Frenzy going off someone who just got uncaged. If they try, Legion should instantly hit fatigue while the survivor just gets their normal speed boost with no Deep Wound or anything extra.
Basically it should always be a bad trade for Legion to target someone right after being uncaged. Maybe this should only apply when Legion is already in a Frenzy chain and not when first starting Feral Frenzy.
Not sure what the exact "endurance" time should be but maybe the same as the endurance and haste you get when uncaged. Not the biggest issue but it feels dumb that it even exists.
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Sadly, the sentiment these days seems to be that as soon as you queue up for a trial, you're married to it. But fun should be taken into account or else we end up in this situation.
The Resident Evil crossover the iteration before the last. They were added because of the HUNK Legendary.
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Gracias
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Who is "we". There seem to be a big amount of people here stating the opposite. Maybe you, and the others you are describing, just lucky with their queue?
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Not that kind of "we".
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Rulebreaker is shared between the 3 of us. Maybe we're lucky, maybe unlucky. But if so then it stands to reason that others are as (un)lucky and gotten similar ques right?
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No need to get rid of mending most legions you see are playing with friend its more rare to get legion oni this season so just increase his instadown to 8 and just make difference so when he hits freanzy hit he only sees two closest survivors which are not in mending state this will limit his info potencial for his killer friend and he will be solid support he should be.
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I'm confused, people like Legion in 1 vs 4? :)
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I'll give it another shot: What don't you feel was addressed? What, specifically, is still an issue with Legion in 2v8 if we reframe them as an injury machine setting up for their teammate?
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Well, I gave it a shot.
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I don't think that's necessarily true, I think Legion
couldfit into an entirely different niche- the counterplay to Legion is only not to healbecausethere's no other killer andbecausethat lowers the effectiveness of Feral Frenzy. They can undo the heal quickly, so in the mode with no other risk it makes sense not to heal against them.I think your analysis of the counterplay to Legion is misinterpreting its relationship to there not being another killer. The counterplay being not to heal is because there's no point - they're just going to quickly injure you again making it a waste of time. It doesn't necessarily lower the effectiveness of Feral Frenzy because full health or half health - in both cases the survivor ends up wounded with deep wounds.
Now add another killer. Healing is still a waste of time - they're still just going to injure you again in the exact same amount of time as before. All you've done is made the counterplay a lose-lose situation. Heal and a few moments later you're back in deep wounds making all that time spent pointless. Don't heal and best case everyone's playing like they have no mither, worst case you're feeding an Oni.
The problem with Legion is they're built to quickly ping pong across a lot of survivors and wound them. This makes them disproportionately more powerful as a team mate in 2v8 than other killers.
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When I say it lessens the effectiveness of Feral Frenzy, what I mean is that Legion both injures quickly and makes healing up that injury take longer.
If survivors actually do heal up, and they don't have a really speedy way of doing that like a charged Inner Strength or a passive way of doing it like Clean Break, then Feral Frenzy shines the most because it can very quickly + reliably make that timesink completely wasted.
Pair that with the reality that, really, Feral Frenzy doesn't do much if you're injured. It puts you in Deep Wound, which is a short timesink, and it can technically down you if Legion gets lucky… but it's not that scary and Legion has absolutely nothing else. With no other external pressure, you have less reason to heal on top of the fact that Legion can make that time take longer and be invalidated quicker.In short, staying injured isn't scary and not staying injured both takes longer + can be undone very quickly. This is both Legion's major weakness and also the thing you'd be leveraging most by playing Legion, because survivors staying injured can be beneficial.
Now look at 2v8. There's obviously an incentive to heal- there's a whole other killer to capitalise on that injury even if Legion's on the other side of the map and THEIR power probably works a lot better against you in this state. The problem is, Legion is still very capable of making that heal take longer.
They're not necessarily AS good at undoing the heal as quickly - there's seven other targets for them to be chasing instead of three other targets and the maps are bigger - but you do still have to deal with Deep Wound to heal back up again and they're not bad at injuring you again.If Deep Wound didn't exist in 2v8's version of Feral Frenzy, then you only have to heal, and as I mentioned elsewhere, getting healed up is a little more accessible in 2v8. Not necessarily stronger, you can get pretty crazy heal speeds in the main game, but you're more likely to be near a teammate and Medic is pretty strong, so it's accessible.
Without Deep Wound making the heal take longer, Legion's still good because injuring survivors rapidly is something a teammate can capitalise on, but they're no longer in that forced lose/lose scenario. Their ability to injure the one person who got healed up is proportionally a little weaker, and they're not capable of making that heal take longer anymore. Less timesink, less ability to invalidate the timesink, Legion would then be relying on their teammate to clean up after them in a timely manner.Don't get me wrong, I think Legion would need more tweaks than this to properly shine as the support killer that doesn't get downs themselves that much, but I think it's a good start. That's what I think Legion in 2v8 should look like, good at injuring survivors but not good at enforcing survivors staying injured.
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That's just the 3 of you then. When people say 40min queue, I think they aren't lying. I also don't think that you are lying either.
Therefore, I assume, that queues are from 20min-40min.
Even the possibility of a 40min queue time is insane to me. Nobody ever said that about the other iterations of 2v8.
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After a annoying time of digging through the forums, what we found was people complaining about wait times, but not one gives any sort of guestimate…so don't know where that leaves us.
On a more funny note, saw a past post from you talking about how variety in killers could make a difference in wait times via more combinations and more interesting matches for survivors.
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Just remove Legion entirely from 2v8, their design is a problem and not suited to this mode of game play. I am so gutted they put Legion back in again, I was really looking forward to 2v8 but I cant do it with Legion in it.
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