Is the recently proposed anti-tunneling mechanic too much, too little, just right, or not necessary?
- When a Survivor is hooked, their hook status is hidden from the Killer. When they’re unhooked, there is no notification and their hook status isn’t revealed immediately.
- This is disabled once all generators are completed.
- Unhooked Survivors gain the following effects for a limited time:
- Haste, Endurance, and Elusive (see below) status effects.
- No collision with other players (both Killer and Survivor).
- Immunity to Killer Instinct and sees the Killer’s aura nearby.
- These effects are lost when the affected Survivor perform a Conspicuous Action.
- All these effects (except Haste and Endurance) are disabled once all generators are completed.
- Added a unique effect to the Killer hook state UI that indicates the last Survivor they hooked.
- After completing a “unique hook” (the same Survivor is not hooked consecutively), Killers get the following benefits:
- Bonus damage for the next generator kick.
- Temporary Haste status effect.
- Temporarily reveals Survivors (think basekit BBQ & Chili) that have less or equal hook states to the hooked Survivor.
- These effects are slightly lessened for The Blight, The Dark Lord, The Ghoul, The Hillbilly, and The Nurse.
- These effects are disabled once all generators are completed.
- Added new effects that disincentivize tunneling:
- If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial.
- If the Survivor that was last hooked is Sacrificed or Killed, generators cannot be regressed or blocked.
- Added the option to enable or disable these new mechanics in Custom Games.
- Updated several Survivor and Killer perks to account for these changes.
DEV NOTE: It’s no secret that tunneling can be seen as an efficient way to play for Killers. While this can be true, it’s also true that the results of this can be frustrating for Survivors, leading to Trials ending too quickly for some, while leaving others to fend for themselves in a match that is now much more difficult.
The intention here is for both roles to feel the benefits and incentives that come from spreading hook states. On the one end, Survivors have better opportunities to evade and reset after unhooks, while also limiting those tough situations where losing a Survivor too quickly causes things to go south quickly and snowball. On the other end, Killers are able to apply more map pressure to push back against efficient teams, covering ground post-hook and strengthening gen regression.
Is the recently proposed anti-tunneling mechanic too much, too little, just right, or not necessary? 42 votes
Comments
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- If the Survivor that was last hooked is Sacrificed or Killed, generators cannot be regressed or blocked.
I don't understand this line, can you help me?
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Voting "Just Right" because I want to see it in action first. On the surface, it's a little too good to be true. Depending on how they do it, it can go in a million different directions.
-7 -
You have to let survivors "take turns" getting hooked. If you hook osmeone 2 or 3 times in a row and they die you will be permanently penalized for the remainder of the trial.
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There's a few problems that I see with the changes that push it in the too much category.
First, 6 hooks is half the killer progress and killers can easily kill a survivor without tunneling with that many hooks. Since the best strategy is to focus your hook on as few survivors as possible, because there's not much benefit to spreading hooks out on all 4 survivors. Even with the changes, this will still be the case.
Second, We already have 8 limit on generator regression events. The prevent any regression or generator blocking will give survivors on death hook a good reason to play aggressively to use the anti-tunnel mechanics aggressively. It's not like the devs have announced they are removing the 8 regression event limit. Not to mention how this might work with killers like Sadako or Pyramid Head whose powers unlock a mori.
Third, reducing the benefits for certain killers doesn't sit right with me. It feels like BHVR recognizes the system won't really stop the best killers in the game from tunneling out survivors. Which means this system largely just hurts killers who need help. After some thoughts, I think if BHVR really wanted to reduce the effectiveness of certain effects on more powerful killers it should be a modifier baked into their power so it's clear when you select the killer play as. Like Nurse's power could reduce aura reading duration. This could also allow the opposite where weaker killers could get benefits like increased aura reading durations.
Fourth, the benefits the killers get for going for unique hooks are going to be left too low values since I know if bhvr put them at any impactful values you would just get survivor complaints until they get nerfed. The extra regression is likely 5-10%. Haste will be 5% for like 10 seconds. The aura reading will still be blockable by lockers or perks. Ultimately, weaker killers will see little benefit from these bonuses while having little they can do to slow down gens without getting punished from the game.
Fifth, removing information from killer UI does not sit right with me.
Finally, this is a bunch of complicated extra things killers need to track which is going to be awful experience for new players.7 -
Thanks!
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I'm not against helping either side recover from losing games, I'm not. I'm also really for incentivizing killers to not tunnel, but I think this has to many ways survivors can exploit making one person semi immortal. Think of it like this: Trapping killers have to ignore 1 specific survivor, but that survivor can go around constantly disarming your traps, right in front of your face.
Also, survivors need to be incentivized to not let there teammates die. Like, seriously.
A solution I would like to propose instead: Gen regression is based on how many survivors are alive and able to stop the regression. Gen regression will now equal: 5%+ (4*number of survivors alive)+(2*number of survivors who are not on the hook, in the dying state, or in a cage) It's complicated, but it makes it so gen regression is less effective when there are fewer people to stop it, but more effective when they can.
It obviously won't stop gen blocking or slow down perks, but I still think it's less risky.
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As a SoloQ player yes, as a Killer player oof
2 -
These changes are so extreme that they go way past “anti tunnel” or “anti slug” and much more into just “anti momentum”. Like we just don’t want you doing “too well”.
This would be like if survivors got gens blocked every time they reached 50% until another gen got equivalent progress. This would seem silly as it would just be punishing them for playing well. That’s how these killer changes look.
What the killers are getting also doesn’t look even remotely equivalent to what survivors are getting. Yeah we haven’t seen numbers, but the level of numbers we’d need on those effects to make them balanced they would just never do.
5 -
I think anti-tunnel is a bit too big for the current game.
Multiple parts of it are excessive. Especially the "punishments for tunneling". The one that triggers after 6 hooks should be at 4 and the other that works off of a survivor getting double hooked and dying should not exist.
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If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial.
Holy #########, what are they thinking. "new effects that disincentivize tunneling", more like "new effects that disincentivize playing Killer", whew…
Like @TheSingleQuentinMain already said, this is huge detriment to trap Killers, but I can also see it be a drastic disadvantage to Killers like:
- Deathslinger:
The previously hooked Victim just bodyblocks for whoever is caught with his gun. He'll be forced to hit the bodyblocker, but can't persue the hit Victim, else he'll get penalized, and the caught Victim can just run away, no problem (before anybody gets clever on me here, I'm talking about the period AFTER the no collision expires).
- Knight:
The previously hooked Victim can now soak the Knight's guards, even if the Victim is downed, it's no risk, as the Killer cannot hook them without getting penalized.
- Houndmaster
The previously hooked Victim can now tank the hound, much like the Knight's guards, no risk if downed.
- Animatronic
The previously hooked Victim can now stand at any security door without any risk of getting hooked, even if caught, as hooking will once again mean a penalty.
This is not to mention the potential of just simply bodyblocking any Killer, as long as you're the previously hooked Victim.
I see huge potential for No Mither builds seeing play here, since there won't be any risk to being already injured, and you can just get yourself up again to tank another hit.
4 -
I think it is just right, I am tired of killers slugging and tunneling, everyday as a survivor ww see the killers get buffs on all of their perks and us survivors all of oyr perks are neft because it's not hard for the killers to get easy kills, so this helps us just a little so im happy. Now I may come back to play the game
-4 -
You essentially lose the game if you went for the same person consecutively until they died.
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I loathe these changes because they artificially complicate and "get in the way" without explicitly IMPROVING anything. The incentives are designed in such a way to increase annoying "snowball" circumstances that harm newer players on both sides MUCH MORE than experienced ones. The design is so unabashedly horrible that not only has Behavior given survivors the ability to outright REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME in private lobbies, but they also had to curtail its effect specific to particular Killers - because the design is so poor and lacks eloquence that exceptions and rules have to be added to the exceptions and rules.
Taking a look at things piece by piece:
- When a Survivor is hooked, their hook status is hidden from the Killer. When they’re unhooked, there is no notification and their hook status isn’t revealed immediately.
This is such an awful idea I cannot even imagine what the developers were thinking. I understand the kneejerk reaction of wondering a reality where Killers would not be rushing back to hook instantly, but this would be better relegated to a new perk (Personally, reworking Off The Record to give an 8s delay to the Killer's HUD and noise notif would be the play). Making the game less accurate, less trustworthy, less precise, and MORE clunky in the pursuit of trying to "punish everyone just in case they might be a little bad". Not only will this likely backfire and promote NEGATIVE Killer gameplay, but making a valuable information resource LESS reliable and instilling paranoia, distrust, and confusion in Killer gameplay for the very fringe hypothetical that 30s of invulnerability isn't enough to protect survivors overall. This One change is a declaration from the staff, in my opinion, that they neither trust nor respect Killer players enough to give them the most minor benefit of the doubt. In all transparency, I generally feel that the game is balanced and that the developers are - overall - not favoring of one side over another - but this is absolutely ridiculous. It's on par with an idea of "Lets make it so that the Killer cannot see survivor portraits or how many generators are left. When generators are completed or the exit gates are open the Killer does not know until 10s later! We must do this because informed Killers are more oppressive and more mean to play against!" - removing a line of basic, valuable, normal information that has existed in the game since launch in hopes that it MAY improve interactions with FRINGE cases against a MINORITY of players is beyond overkill and distrust - it is deleterious to reputations and experiences.
- Unhooked Survivors gain the following effects for 30s:
- Haste, Endurance, and Elusive (see below) status effects.
- No collision with other players (both Killer and Survivor).
- Immunity to Killer Instinct and sees the Killer’s aura nearby.
- These effects are lost when the affected Survivor perform a Conspicuous Action.
30s is way, way, way too long and this is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, fundamentally too strong. Survivors who are unhooked are ALLOWED to make mistakes and misplay into an early grave. It's part of playing the game - it's part of playing ANY game. Basekit Borrowed Time is very nice and it has stopped the Killer from tunneling directly off the hook in the overwhelming majority of cases, the anti-grab and anti-camp mechanics have eloquently removed the bulk of camping. Giving strange special permission to override the "Guaranteed Information" in Killer's kits, giving profound and unrivalled stealth and mobility that rivals 4.4m/s killers for such an extended period of time gives increased benefit SO SEVERE that it legitimately trivializes Off The Record, Babysitter, Borrowed Time, and many other perks by virtue of existing. 12s of 8% Haste, Endurance, No Collision, Hidden Aura, and no scratch marks was NOT ENOUGH - that is so incredibly concerning. Instead of starting with more conservative additions that, frankly, would work incredibly well at any rate, more than DOUBLING the efficacy of these perks and granting profound information. The ability for players on both sides to experience emergent gameplay surrounding hooks is quashed and - overall - the objective of "preventing tunneling" is not much more dissuaded from the actual changes from the original. This change is not going to make the experience worse for the 0.1% of tunnelers, it will not make the game more fun or enjoyable for survivors, but it certainly will make matches more predictable and uninteresting for Killers.
- Added a unique effect to the Killer hook state UI that indicates the last Survivor they hooked.
Actually a wonderful change. I don't mind this at all. Special scoring events to punish/reward good gameplay surrounding this and maybe perks interacting with it should make the game more interesting and promote nuanced gameplay.
- After completing a “unique hook” (the same Survivor is not hooked consecutively), Killers get the following benefits:
- Bonus damage for the next generator kick.
- Temporary Haste status effect.
- Temporarily reveals Survivors (think basekit BBQ & Chili) that have less or equal hook states to the hooked Survivor.
- These effects are slightly lessened for The Blight, The Dark Lord, The Ghoul, The Hillbilly, and The Nurse.
- These effects are disabled once all generators are completed.
What. The. Heck.
I play Killer more than survivor - I like the gameplay more. I hate these changes more than words can permit. Basekit Pop? Matches are going to be more snowball heavy - Killers with momentum are going to destroy matches and survivors are going to feel more helpless - while Killers that struggle to get hooks are going to feel even more ashamed because future balance will be around this. 20% on average is going to add ~80s of gameplay to each match if this feature is used effectively. 10% Haste for 15s is going to be worthless to low mobility, ranged, and information based killers but profoundly boost higher mobility and teleportation enabled killers. 10% is 2 stacks of Bloodlust - Survivors are not going to feel like they have a chance if they enter chase within this time frame. It's just unfun. Reworking BBQ and Chilli to do this instead would have been worthwhile but BASEKIT? Seeing all non-hooked survivors for FREE on a hook is such garbage design. Stealth has been marginalized, but turning NORMAL DbD into 2v8 matches is NOT the play. They are two completely different styles of gameplay and what Behavior may soon realize is that increasing the 'momentum' is likely going to punish newer survivors and turn many matches into predictable slogs rather than interesting mindgames.
Overall these things are so chopped and silly that they're outright halved for the top performing Killers in the roster. This isn't a W for Behavior - this is a point-and-laugh scenario.
- Added new effects that disincentivize tunneling:
- If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial.
This is basically a bad joke. Not only is the "DBD is like Hockey" situation rearing its head again, but this is plainly silly. Just about every person who plays the game normally can attest that 6 hooks is NOT usually tunneling and, overall, is not how the game is played. In truth, the game is about bookended momentum and we DO want to see the Killer applying lots of pressure at the end game, but we do NOT want to see a survivor not being able to play the game and dying when there are 4 generators left. Having this be based on hook states regardless of generator progress is a telltale sign that this was a choice made in ignorance, not in good faith. 4 hooks would be more reasonable, but it doesn't change the fact that this is an ARTIFICIAL THROTTLE on the game. Using buffs and debuffs players should FEEL incentivized to do the correct thing. Trying to reach through the monitor and smack a player for "tunneling" when the criteria is not designed around tunneling gameplay is poor design, embarrassingly uninformed, and rooted in avarice rather than nurturing. - If the Survivor that was last hooked is Sacrificed or Killed, generators cannot be regressed or blocked.
This is a meme. It's like those jokes where people make up a perk "Hex Call Mom: if the Killer tunnels you your mom drives through the wall of the trial in a 2008 Ford Focus/2016 Toyota Corola/2024 Lincoln Nautilus, running over the Killer and saving everyone." or like that one meme where someone took the perk Dead Hard and changed the title and description to say "Dead: Press the E key while injured and running to instantly die. You do not recover from death.". It is such an unreasonable, unfounded, out-of-nowhere, uninformed, and frankly strange idea to be put in the game. In essence, and entire aspect of the game that has been part of it since creation: Generator Regression - which has been expanded upon and has its own aspects of gameplay used to BALANCE the game between the two asymmetrical parties - will be REMOVED FROM THE GAME at the expense of the "OFFENDER" if they do not play the game "Correctly". People play this game and get hooked twice in a row all the time and it isn't all bad. Yes, sometimes it's because the Killer is a mean, rude person trying to ruin everyone's fun. Most of the time, it's poor luck - I do something silly or stupid - I try to be brave and do a big play - it's the last generator and I sacrifice my life for the good of the team - etc. Putting a MAJOR lose-lose situation with America's Nuclear Launch Codes into the game to nuke an entire team's chances by REMOVING GAMEPLAY is such a massive and unreasonable choice. It's as if in Call Of Duty, to prevent spawn camping, they come out with a patch saying "If we detect that someone dies in an active spawn zone, the enemy team cannot use Killstreaks or use grenades" with the reasoning "This will punish very bad players and, honestly, if you guys are killing people in their spawns you dont need the Killstreaks". With absolute respect this is such a clear and undeniable fumble I believe it's worse, much much worse than the Boon release.
- If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial.
Overall, if they added mechanics like - Totems increase repair by 8% until damaged, Every time a survivor is hooked all other survivors gain a stacking 1.6% repair speed until hooked, when a survivor has been left in the Dying state for longer than 20 seconds all other survivors gain a stacking 12% repair bonus. And just add, like, 4 seconds of repair time to each generator or some early game slowdown to balance it - and you'd accomplish the same ultimate goal of encouraging spread pressure, discouraging slugging, and increasing the emergent gameplay of Dead By Daylight while reducing pressure on both sides to perform and improving overall enjoyment…
Adding all of these really weird 2v8 rules to the base game to try and turn it into the same Loony Tunes show each and every time is so strange I'll never understand the reasoning behind it. Hopefully it feels good to play but if it isn't I may just have to put the experience on the shelf for awhile.
1 - When a Survivor is hooked, their hook status is hidden from the Killer. When they’re unhooked, there is no notification and their hook status isn’t revealed immediately.
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I have a simple creed.
If you're safe enough to work on a generator, you're safe enough to take chase again and you're not being tunnelled.
2 -
Coming from a toxic Nea main of the old days (2017-2019) with comp swf neas, even I feel bad about this update. It’s waay too much, as if our competent SWFs needed this (we don’t but thanks?), we’re fine without it, but ofc it’s tailored to the newer or inexperienced players; the issue is that it’s a massive bonus for us who are already efficient survivors and will be an absolutely horrible experience for your average killer main. I’m sorry, yall.
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Now that you've seen it in action, do you feel the same way about your vote?
1 -
I don't play the PTB so I actually haven't, but I do read the feedback posted here. For now, I'll trust that the numbers were boosted for stress testing during the PTB and they'll be changed before they go live. I'll post more about it then.
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Unhook Protections Update:
- 10% Haste Status Effect - Less effective against mobility/ranged Killers, mostly useful if the Killer is already Proxy camping in the first place. More effective against M1 Killers.
- Endurance status effect - Less effective against mobility/ranged Killers that can secure relatively quick follow-up hits. More effective against M1 Killers. Not a huge fan, but necessary given proxy-camping as a result of a single point where the Unhooked Survivor will be.
- Elusive - Effective against all Killers so long as line-of-sight blockers are present to be used. I like this, except that it doesn't prevent Killer Instinct from Finding players.
- Reveal the Killer's Aura within 32m - Cool to use to evade the killer if they're not running you down. Possibly decent to make it harder in chase too, though that is under the assumption that the Survivor is immediately getting tunneled.
- Immunity to Killer Instinct - Why isn't this part of Elusive? A status that exists to make the Survivor undetectable without direct LoS makes sense to have no "Killer trump card", it's asymmetrical (though usage of such a status should be deliberate and not excessive).
Hook Status Update:
- The Killer cannot see the hook's status in the HUD - This is only relevant for the Unhook portion. I do not think this is necessary.
- The Killer cannot see the Hook's Aura - I'm fine with this. Promotes spatial memory.
- No unhook notification - Punishes Killers that are not Tunneling with inaccurate information, while being irrelevant for Killers proxy-camping.
- HUD Delay - See above.
Unique Hook Bonuses:
- Overall I kinda like them. But kinda would like to see a rock/paper/scissors approach? Instead of giving Delay/Lethality+Mobility/Information, you give the Killer a choice somehow? (Perhaps also separating the mobility/lethality choice too).
Tunneling Penalties:
- I do not like how these effects are enforced by the system instead of introducing a method for survivors to try and mitigate tunneling themselves.
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