http://dbd.game/killswitch
4K Mindset is the Problem
I am mostly a Survivor player, Solo.
I believe that the general mindset for Killer mains is 4K or bust. 2k and 3k is considered a loss. This never should have been the consistent obtainable goal as Killer with 2k and 3k being average or normal. 4k should have been rare and not easy to achieve but 4k-ing has been common. I would say well over half of my games end in 4k. Some of them aren't even close with 4 gens still in play. Killers adapted the slow-down and tunnel strategy because it worked and they got 4k's. Never mind it perpetuated all of the worst parts of the game, doing gens or the poor soul who is getting tunneled out first.
I believe the upcoming changes are somewhat needed as a casual solo player but I can understand how the balance could shift at high MMR with survivor squads. I'm just not sold that is a majority of play.
All that said, I can see that Killer mains will not take kindly to the changes and I highly doubt all the changes will make it to the actual game as originally posted. I would like to see it improve game health but only consistent 4k's will appease the die hard Killer. The mindset is 4k or bust. Anything less is unacceptable.
Comments
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Idk 4k is a option and I go for it if I want it and I know where the last survivor is so I leave the other one on the ground but some killers do it too much in higher survivors alive numbers but now one thing is sure they wont do it because antislug fixes this issue but its straight nerf to oni and twins. One killer thats strong but fair he needs to gain his power and can be still looped normaly (oni) and other killer who has like 5 mains, is the least played killer in the game and his whole kit is just slugging tool with some antiloop in for of victor and no option to get across the map to downed survivors without being m1 killer speed (115%) and its no one else than twins.
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What I'm getting at is 4K was too common and easy to achieve for too long and the strategy to achieve it consistently is often boring and stale. But the expectation is there when really 4k should have always been the exceptional outcome, got lucky or played a very good game. The Killer community, those who play Killer seriously expect to 4k consistently.
In contrast, as a solo Survivor, I expect to die and it's a happy GG if I actually make it out of the trial.
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Failing to get 4K means being tbagged at gate. Survivors will stand in the gate for the entire EGC just to do so. This behavior is one of the primary reasons referenced when "killer anxiety" is talked about. Being shamed for not "winning". If you think the 4K expectation is because its easy, and that killers are complacent with "being op", then you have less than 10 hours as killer.
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I know that playing soloq can be annoying (trust me ive been there ) but this is not the way to make the casual experience better.
I think what is really needed in DBD is a much better in depth tutorial of how to play the game e.g. how to loop, best times to heal, when to unhook and all of that not just here gen here killer here pallet, a link to Otzdarvas channel would be far, far better than this games "tutorial".
A communication update like a ping wheel and comms so there is a more level playing field then just having SWF and soloq in two different realms.
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You just described why most of my games are already against top teir Killers with the same builds. Because it delivers 4k. I've maybe put in 100 hours as Killer and about 1500 hours total.
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Did you see JRM made a "what not to do" video for BHVR? LOL!
They are telling us to Git Good! ; D
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God i wish people would shame survivors for trying to escape like they do killers for trying to do their goal. Which is killing all 4 survivors, for the people who apparantly forgot.
Cant get how this hypocrisy is still going strong in year 10.
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You're making my argument for me. Consistent 4k should have always been an exceptional game. I've already admitted I expect to die in my trial. I certainly don't expect all 4 Survivors to escape!
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I'm one of the ones who kinda wants an update like this to go through, with the right adjustments, but this kinda argument ain't it.
You're basically upset the killer role wants the goal of winning. We don't get mad when survivors want to escape, I hope, so why are we mad about killers wanting a 4k?
This is also coming from someone who legitimately loves playing Insidious Unknown for the jumpscares and not the win.4 -
I do think that the more competitive mindset, which is what 4K or bust and 4E or bust is a part of, has negatively impacted this game in so many ways.
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I don't expect to win as Survivor. But you should expect the full 4K on average?
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Of course not. But it's not a bad goal in the slightest. Killer role will always be to kill as many of the survivors as possible. If someone is shooting for all 4, good for them, they need to work for it for the most part. Especially after these changes.
Heck, adepts are still a thing. I'm not gonna fault the killer going for adept either.0 -
Outside of people actively doing 4k streaks, I have never seen anyone who counted a 3k as a killer loss.
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Enough with the divisive “us vs them” posts making broad generalizations about people who play killer. These types of posts are by far the biggest source of toxicity on these forums and I hope the mods finally do something about them because they’ve been especially bad since the recent changes were announced. We wouldn’t see these if people bothered playing both sides.
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I agree on it being an issue. Its not just the power role, its an expectation of absolute domination.
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It seemed relevant because a lot of Killers seem upset that a consistent 4k strategy might not be so consistent anymore.
My argument is it never should have been consistent in the first place and should actually be hard to kill all 4 Survivors.
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"A killer wanting to kill all survivors" is the equivalent to "a survivor wanting to escape"
And if a killer gets consistent 4k that only means hes better than the survivors, be it they suck or he's just that good.
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And if a killer gets consistent 4k that only means hes better than the survivors, be it they suck or he's just that good.How is it not possible that the reason they are getting 4ks is that the game is tilted in their favor?
Survivors used to be the power role. It wasn't because the survivors were better then, it was because the game was weighed in their favor. It's on the opposite side now.
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I've recently seen omeone proclaim that a killer deserves to lose if he cant use hia skills to get survivors. Ergo, if a killer kills the survivors, hes their better and deserves those kills.
The power-role (killer) needs to be stronger than the numbers-role ( survivor), survivors being stronger broke the genre in the past.
Personally i think the strongest survivor ( good players in swf) can be is quite equal to the strongest killer can be ( good player on A-S tier killer, im being nice and using the former bracket instead of just "nurse")
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I've recently seen omeone proclaim that a killer deserves to lose if he cant use hia skills to get survivors.Well I guess if one person said it somewhere it must become the standard for all other discussions.
The power-role (killer) needs to be stronger than the numbers-role ( survivor),Great, but that's different than your earlier point.
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My play rates changes from time to time, but when i was playing recently - before the Walking Dead Chapter - i was playing like 40% on survivor and 60% killer. And i would say that i don't mind not getting a 4k; depending on the match, even a 2k or even a 1k was fine. The issue is how much effort and attention i need to put in a match to get a decent result.
There is a current mindset on our community, from killer to survivor players, that if the killer don't get a 4k its a loss. I've received trash talking even when i did 10 hooks and got 2 man out - TBF, these are the most common scenarios where i get trash talked.
My current issue with the future update - which will still go through PTB and other stuff, so we need to wait and see - is two things:
- Playing killer will get far more stressfull than it is today because you will need to go out of your way to spread hooks before taking people out of the match. Going for a hard tunnel is one of the worst decision in the game with the current survivor meta, with perks like Decisive Strike, Off the Record, Dead Hard, Made for This, Unbrekable, Babysitter, Shoulder the Burden turning this into an almost impossible task. But if you accidentally get into a situation where you could take someone out early without hard tunneling because THEY missplayed, you might take a very harsh punishment. So you will need to go out of your way to give this survivor a second chance while you try to down another people, making the game much harder for killers
- Survivors will have even less incentive to get better at macro strategies, focusing on their sole survival. If this patch go live, you will see how much people will just save you right in front of the killers, let you slugged for 90s - because you will get up anytime soon - and just do gens and go for exit gates. People who play bad will get higher on MMR not because they are getting better, but because they have basekit mechanics that do part of the job for them. Them they will start to face top tier Blight, Nurses and Billys, don't realize why their matches are going the way they are and still getting frustated. Trust me, i play a lot of SoloQ survivor and most of the time i see that my teammates don't know basic macroplay logic, like farming someone right of the hook when the killers is actively tunneling the person and not even trying to bodyblock or aggro the killer.
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Yes thats why these changes are going to be an issue they are going to be abused by SWF and low rank killers will suffer. They should just let killers abandon if the gates open or if thats too much after a certain timer. No thought about killer enjoyment in the changes whatsoever even if weak links did need something to give them a chance.
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Agreed, Killer should be able to abandon once the gates are open. You shouldn't have to chase Survivors out of the match. Never understood why the "T bagging" offended Killers so much other than wasting the time to get the Survivors to actually leave the trial.
I m the kind of player that would wait at the exit to give the Killer a free hits.
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As usual, the first pushback is "It's not wrong to want the 4k." Which is also part of the flawed Killer mindset.
By which I mean, no, it's not wrong to want the 4k or try for it, but it's the refusal to accept that not getting the 4k is not the end of the world. So they relied on these cheap strategies that took too little skill on the Killer side to pull off with massive rewards, while it took MASSIVE skill on the Survivor side to counter, 99% of the time ending in failure on their part.
If Killers can just learn to get their 4k's without tunneling and slugging, then those victories would be much more well-earned.
The harder you work towards your goal, the better you'll feel when you reach it.
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The harder you work towards your goal, the better you'll feel when you reach it.This is absolutely true. Going the easy route just feels like a hollow victory. But a hard-earned win is a whole different story.
I always take the more challenging route myself, because it feels so good to get the win if you work hard for it.
Of course, I tend to lose more than I win when I play in my normal manner, but I respect that the other team did better, and played their cards right.I also firmly believe that the finisher mori definitely made the "must go for the 4K" mindset a lot worse.
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It's not the "4K mindset", it's the "must win to be considered a human being" mindset—and it's the very old issue of the gaming community. Winners are gods, they get all the respect, their opinion matters, their word is hear, they get praise and rewards and expect adoration. Losers are barely people in the gamers' eyes—their only purpose is to be humiliated, ridiculed, and dragged through the dirt, not to mention harassed beyond the game. Their time gets wasted, they don't get to argue, they don't even deserve to use some measures against the abuse—just eat the dirt, leave no crumbs, smile and nod because you lost, so you don't deserve to be treated well.
No matter what anyone says, the "just be chill" excused don't work in multiplayer game, DBD in particular:
New to the game? — not my problem, baby, ur trash, ez, delete the game
Just trying a fun build? — loser, trash, dog, bark for us, lmao
Not trying to win — lmao you're just used to being a loser, hahah, we're so good
The worst part? At the end of the day, everyone blames those who find themselves at the receiving end for reacting instead of acknowledging that BMing options should be taken away. So, until this "winning is everything" mindset goes away, this issue will remain.
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It's sad because it is true.
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2k and 3k are the sweet spot for me as killer. The way the MMR is though, most of my matches are either 0k/1k or they're 4k. There's very little of that desired inbetween, so my matches always feel like I was too strong or that my opponents were too strong.
The way a lot of killers approach this, it's almost like they stop viewing the survivors as individual players and instead as a single mass. I just don't see why you need 4 people to lose in order to feel like you won. Each kill is its own win against a whole person. It's particularly bad if one person on the team starts BMing. Killers often become viscious towards everyone, because it's now everyone's fault. Playing survivor helps me remember they're all different people when I play killer, but if all you play only killer, I think your mindset gets a little warped because you only play half the game and ceases to understand the other side.
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Funny thing, every discussion I've had with killer mains in this forum about these changes eventually devolves into "you must be low MMR" and "your stats must be awful" so you're exactly right. The argument gets to the point where there's nothing left for them to do but go "u r a loser" or "do you even play killer??"
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On the flipside, Survivors shouldn't care too much about a 4 out aswell? or are you a hypocrite?
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So wanting to win is a problem now. So i should just let the survivors win. You know you get more blood points if you don't let anyone escape right.
Its not a mindset to want to win (i don't care about winning btw). I want to win and even the survivors want to win its natural in every game.
Im saying its ok to want to win. Because some Killers can be more aggressive or persistent when it comes to playing.
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That's been standard for ages. BHVR outright said they're balancing in the killer's favour and no one gave a peep.
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I have had a few such discussions too. I know what you mean.
But I know for a fact that we are not low MMR, especially on survivor, considering how often we are actually pitted against killer players who knows how their character works, down to every little minute detail, like that Wesker in our last match on Eyrie.
Even though we got a 3-man out, he was still humble about it, and liked us giving him credit for the amazing hug-techs that he pulled off. He was good, no doubts about that. Just unlucky with the map0 -
I feel like I'm mid MMR on both roles but I don't know what it matters. They just dump you in any lobby anyway.
You'd think I'm high MMR for killer with the matches I've been getting lately. Every survivor has been sweaty and skilled with meta builds.
I love throwing compliments to killers who had a bad match but played well and fair. At least I can respect them. Had a Michael once who got 0 kills but scared the crap out of me like four times with jump scares. Was more than happy to tell him so. Friendly interactions are the best.
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So, like me whenever I play killer, you often see the same perks on rotation. Mostly Decisive Strike, Dead Hard, Unbreakable, Lithe, Finesse, Windows etc, and the survivors knows how to loop well.
No meme or unconventional perks like we use to run ourselves :D
And yes, friendly interactions are truly the best. Always best to say GG if the game was truly good, or just move on to the next if it wasn'tSpeaking of.. I also see hidden offerings a lot, along with mostly personal offerings. Hardly any anniversary cakes or BPS.
But all in all, I really don't think the MMR matters anyways, since in the grand scheme of things, we do get close to a 45/45/10 split of matches that go either way in the killers or our own favor, and very rarely even matches.
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Yeah I'm as tired of all those survivor perks as I am of exposed perks in killers. Perks like Hubris are just embarrassing. Like you need any easy down cause you can't keep from getting stunned? I don't mind gen regression and aura reading so much as I do exposed perks.
I desperately want a perk-free mode. That's the real skill test.
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as a solo player i can tell you solo is bad because of teammates unless you're going against blight or nurse and even then since gen speeds are way faster than it takes to kill a survivor a blight or nurse can get a down at every loop and it'll still be close
the reason killers have the same builds is because 1 gen speeds are too fast so you're forced to use certain perks and 2 every patch/every other patch killer stuff gets nerfed into the ground and new perks that come with new characters are usually garbage or enhances a meta perk (like compass since scorge hook rng is trash)
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If a killer gets consistent 4Ks it means what you say, or it can also mean that the killer player is using a top tier killer and employing tactics that practically assure a 4K against all but top-tier survs (i.e. hard tunneling with a Blight, Nurse, Ghoul, etc.).
DBD is a funny game where you can actually be a pretty pedestrian player and win the vast majority of the time.I've got about 1.5K hours in killer and even with the B-tier killers I favor, most matches I play have a point (usually early) where I know that if I just flip off my empathy and am ruthless even for a couple of minutes, I can pretty much guarantee a 4K. The problem is that the game is designed in such a way that if the 4K outcome is really the end-all-be-all for someone, there's a pretty easily formula to get it, even if you're just kind of mid, and worse at killer than the survs are at survivor.
(But don't get me wrong, I think survs telling a player who just 4K'd them that they're bad in post-game is pretty sad, even if they're not wrong).
Of course I'd prefer a 4K, but I am generally pleased with a 3K and unbothered by a 2K, and prefer to play the game in a way where I don't feel like I just took candy from a small child, because that isn't gratifying to me. The only time I really, really want that 4K is when I'm facing a cocky SWF, because then they have the advantage, and I love the challenge.
Now if the new changes do what they are intended to do, much of this will change forever.4 -
Some people do, but I think the general consensus is that a 3K is a killer win.
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Hey, who are they stomping during those 10 hours?
I know it's hard when you finally face real competition, but if you admit that one side has a 10 hour "grace period" before that happens, then it sounds like the people witnessing crouching animations have less reason to be anxious than the people literally dying and having their game end in 30s.
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Is that not what happens whenever gen speeds or hatch is mentioned?
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? Isnt that more like complaining about nurse existing or the strength of killers. Thats game mechanics or variables. Hatch is also a proven necessary evil.
This is about strategies or more the opposition's demand for you to not play to win.
Survivors tell killers to let the last go while survivors just... escape. Afterall when was the last time someone told survivors to just... dont.
Might be wrong cuz i havent played in a long while, but is there a collective effort to restrict survivors how they play, or shame them for their strategies, like people do against killers?
Its not even about the last escapee in a 4e to turn around and get hooked cuz "its good manners like giving a pity hatch". why arent the first three to escape contemplaiting "woah that went well but i dont need to escape, i did enough". They simply brush it off to the people escaping after them.
"I dont need [4k, escape], i did enough and show mercy" was ever only enforced on one side's players.
Yeah i admit only seeing 4k as a victory is kinda strict on yourself and might lead tosome mental stress. Survivors did well to evolve a "wanna play chill"-mentality. Which is quite exemplary, ... If they didnt try to force it on their opponent.
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Isnt that more like complaining about nurse existing or the strength of killers.
It used to be, but has since lost that aspect. It's no longer about stacked perks and loadouts, but it's expanded to survivors doing gens in general.
Might be wrong cuz i havent played in a long while, but is there a collective effort to restrict survivors how they play, or shame them for their strategies, like people do against killers?
No, and there should be. Rampant hook denial is aggravating to play against. But for every mention of hook denial, there's twenty-three threads bickering that 'gens too fast', just complaining about nothing more substantive than 'I lost, fix it'.
"I dont need [4k, escape], i did enough and show mercy" was ever only enforced on one side's players.
Because only one side can do it. A killer can give hatch and win. A survivor can't give a kill and win. They need to turn their entire game into a loss to give a pity kill.
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Especially since that last survivor might roll lucky and have the hatch pop 2 feet from them. (Had this happen a surprising number of times in both roles, without perks to manipulate it.) If you're not managing the last two for the 4k, one is likely gonna sneak out. So yea, 3k is the sweet spot, 2k is respectable.
Expecting a 4k every match would be like survivors expecting and only considering a 4e a win. It's just not realistic.
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I mean to be fair, the game itself has many mechanisms to reinforce/encourage killers to go for the 4k, such as: -
- Merciless Killer ranking.
- Adepts requiring 4k.
- Challenges in tomes often seeking a 4k.
- Bloodpoint rewards specifically for the 4k.
- Lore surrounding the Entity and Entity Hungers ranking showing its disapproval for failure.
- Achievements/Trophies for 4ks and total number of kills.
My personal attitude to it, is I never begrudge the killer for seeking the 4k or playing to win. This is meant to be a horror game, and you should expect the killer to try and kill you at all costs... its in the name of the role after all... and it's trying to create an entity for you to fear... The killer is the obstacle for you to defeat, and what makes DBD unique is that this obstacle is a stronger human player, not an NPC.
Imagine the sequences in Resident Evil vs. Mr X or Nemesis... while iconic, you tend to win these encounters relatively easily because the game wants you to progress… but DBD is trying to make you feel like one of the victims in Texas Chainsaw Massacre, or Halloween, or Nightmare on Elm Street, or Friday the 13th.
The rules of the trial are understood before you begin, and whether you like them or not, you understand the terms of the trial. The killer should be encouraged to an uncooperative opponent, and whatever the killer is doing, the survivors should be adapting accordingly.
I have always maintained, I do not mind being tunneled, if it happens often I'll start taking Off the Record (and rarely has that been the case I needed to). However regardless, as long as my teammates use it and do gens, and don't screw me over by unhooking me in 10 seconds while the killer is still sniffing my fartsr, I just see it as part of the game to watch out for. The killer is trying to kill everyone, that is what I expect them do.
I also maintain that hardcore tunneling is a privilege of higher tier/faster killers. If survivors aren't dumb with their unhooks, they can make tunneling extremely inefficient for majority of the roster… which is why I tens to get way more angry at Survivors than Killers.
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I only play solo myself and sometimes I do get it for killers, if my random team mates are sweaty and head on/flashbang/blind the killer constantly I can totally understand them feeling like they want to get everyone.
The ones I don't understand is where say someone DC's at 5 gens and the match is a mess from the start, everyone still tries to salvage a match from that and nobody is what you could call 'toxic'… yet the killer goes out their way to make the remaining survivors have the most miserable match ever and will subject them to slugging for the 4k too.
For adepts etc, totally fine but some seem to do it for ego reasons more than anything else. Oh and don't get me started on streamer 'win streaks' - one of the worst things in DBD!
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I and many of the people I play with give killers we feel bad for free kills at end game. So yeah, there is a survivor equivalent of mercy. But as said above, killer mercy isn't a loss for the killer like they are for the survivor. You still win as killer and you can be nice. Win win.
I don't know who feels entitled to mercy though. If anything, I'd just like to not be slugged so the hatch can spawn and I can try for it. It's very pleasant to have it given to me and I like giving it as well, but I never expect it when I play survivor.
There are plenty of plays survivors do that are generally disliked, like taunting or body-blocking mid chase, and just general BMing. I'm not a huge fan of hook denials even as surv. If someone wasted a gen ot two worth of time chasing me, they can have the hooking.
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