http://dbd.game/killswitch
As a community, can we stop being mains on one side or the other?
Seriously, this past week as shown the worst of all of us on either side. Personally, I thought some of the changes were too much, but wanted the patch to go through with the right adjustments to make killer less tedious to dance around the rules, while keeping the abusable aspects down that survivors would inevitably use since overall the changes would benefit soloQ.
However, since BHVR has walked back on it, it has shown me something far worse in this community that is evident here. Mains of either side don't want the game to be fun overall.
Just to be clear, I am not talking about anyone giving genuine feedback. I'm talking about the kneejerk posts that flood here and other places. Carefully reading some replies, there's no feedback and just 'killers just want-' and 'survivors are all-' that. It's to the point where if I do point out a flaw, in either way, I'm accused of being a main of either side when these days, I generally keep my playtime split between both.
We need to stop being blind to one side's issues and actually take into account all the pain points, what is broken or abusable, and find the best workaround if we want to see good changes, since BHVR clearly looks at overall complaints to make their decisions these days.
Comments
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It would be great. but I wouldn't keep my hopes up.
people get too tunnel vision on their own issues.
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This is increasingly difficult to do, especially as someone who has been around since the days of the "your fun is not my responsibility" forums meta.
There is a massive component to many of the discussions here where people lack any kind of empathy for anyone who isn't them. This isn't even necessarily even just "the other side" but also for players who either aren't as skilled, or more skilled, depending on context.
I think asking "why" is a valid question. Especially when BHVR is inconsistent with listening to feedback, or who they listen to, or whether they consider the abusable scenarios ahead of time.
This community largely has the perception that complaining loudly, early, and as often as possible is the way to get BHVR to "listen to feedback", and when they don't listen it just feels like you're watching the Devs be be manipulated.
We need to stop being blind to one side's issues and actually take into account all the pain points, what is broken or abusable, and find the best workaround if we want to see good changes, since BHVR clearly looks at overall complaints to make their decisions these days.
To put a fine point on it, and recent: they are taking this tactic with 9.2 ptb, absolutely. It's also the healthier way to approach things.
They specifically didn't do this in 9.0, with afk crows making it live in an unacceptable state despite and in contradiction to feedback.
The "go next" system in that same update, went live without testing, was pulled briefly, then pushed back in (quietly, with no patch notes) with no changes. Currently, on live, it punishes false positives for being hard tunneled. It's abusable, and people do.
Seemingly, the only difference here is volume. Which only reinforces the "loudest voices choose the game direction" idea even further. That is, objectively, a bad thing for the game at the bare minimum.
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That would be a better way to describe it than I did, actually. Volume, not overall.
It's where I also started noticing the extremes in either side posting their reactions. And if BHVR is making these drastic changes based on that, it's showing that it's possible BHVR doesn't really know what to do.
Not saying they don't know their game or don't play, they simply don't know what will make the game fun overall and appease the widest net of players. At least, that's what it feels like. And after this week, I can't blame them based on a majority of these posts.0 -
I don't think it's possible. That ship has sailed. That's why I say rotating queues are healthy for games like this. Players hate it, but it forces them to see the bigger picture for both sides.
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I mean with would be great if the survivor side didn't get crapped on every two second with changes and new items that could at least breathe life into the game.
Go next prevention goes live because he keeps survivors in game and helps killers kill. Despite issues it had.
Fog vile gets utterly destroyed to oblivion in two weeks.
Anti slug and tunneling axed day 0. No pushing to live to see how it would work. But no allow the biggest killer base (PC) with streamers included be the only ones to test the PTB and shut it down with no hopes to see the light.
It's quite disgusting I played the PTB a lot.
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I feel like this has only gotten worse since the downvote system came back in.
Used to be that when people disagreed they had to respond and back up their point with receipts to argue for their side, and that inherently makes it harder to be tribal, cause receipts takes effort, and the argument with more receipts tended to win.
Now we have it so any argument with evidence and effort, but going against someone's narrative or pointing out facts that people don't want to hear, can instead just be ratiod and ignored... allows people to stick in their tribal echo chamber.
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i mean its just not gonna happen, there are only few people who either main both sides or even main one side but want the game to be fair and fun, im playing like 60 % killer and 40 survivor since release of Pig with longs breaks because i mean lets be honest how much can you play this game and still be sane… Many years have passed and the game still suffer from same core things, and devs did very little to fix them. Well now i see things were beeing made but they are post poning it due to backlash, for me thease changes felt harsh and kinda silly in some cases but atleast something was beeing made, and things would be adjusted, but if one side see new changes and those changes doesnt buff them then they come angry at forum fighting a war. I feel like they dont even care about game beeing fun overall. they just want to their side be even more powerful and thats it and your not gonna change them… idk with patch like that in this case killers were complaining, i believe you would have to adress their complaints like gen speed or SWF.
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It's been disgusting in here. I was just saying in another post how I've been accused of having never played killer, posting someone else's stats, throwing matches on purpose to skew those stats (that aren't mine anyway), and tunneling and slugging even though I'm against those tactics because the stats that weren't mine were too good. And I've had a couple blunt insults thrown in too. This is solely because I want the game to get some much needed changes, and wanted to test the changes before we freaked out. People are too attached to one side or the other to be unemotional and objective.
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Not really up to us. Dissidents are always labeled as mains of the other side.
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I really think the only way for people to see the perspective of the other side is to play both sides at a relatively even split, and most people don't want to do that. They want to pick a side and get good at it, but the one role gets too comfortably familiar, and they end up letting it become their tribal identity. Once that happens, objectivity goes in the crapper.
For my part, I play a pretty even split, but it's been an ebb and flow. I started as a killer main, and was for like my first 800-900 hours. Then I start mixing surv in because it didn't stress me out as much. Then I started playing mostly surv, then almost exclusively surv, and one day I caught myself thinking things I used to laugh at crazy biased surv mains for saying, and even started BM'ing and being kind of an ass.
I was like whoa, wth? And played nothing but killer again for a while to get rid of that energy. I try to split things down the middle mostly now. Point is, it's easily to slip into tribalism even if you fancy yourself as being level headed.
I don't know about rotating queues (I generally prefer an enticement to a mandate), but a system that really incentivizes players for balancing the roles out. Like an scaling incentive to play one role that increases the more you play another, to the point it becomes to hard to resist.
As far as the would-be changes go, I think they were a bit much, but there were some fairly simple common sense changes that could have been made without outright delaying them indefinitely.
I definitely saw issues with them, but the reaction of many killer mains (especially streamers) was and has been totally over the top melodramatic. I think the bones of what was there were good, and as an enjoyer of both roles, I hope they implement a thoughtfully tweaked version sooner than later.
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Seemingly, the only difference here is volume. Which only reinforces the "loudest voices choose the game direction" idea even further. That is, objectively, a bad thing for the game at the bare minimum.
Add to this that nothing stirs activity like negativity, creating a -heavy- negativity bias.
Even if the forums are inundated with dislikes towards certain changes, it doesn't mean the community as a whole reflects that.
So this 'loud voices direct the game' issue innately pushes towards status quo, and an upheaval like this patch will never fly.
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it’s not even side vs side it’s a vocal minority of killers who play for a 4k everytime and only care about that instead of fun I play killer and have fun and get a 2k and don’t care and I play survivor, these changes were great and only would’ve effected sweats but devs completely folded to them at the expense of the largest player base in the game
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I dont want to play survivor. I don't like the gameplay loop of survivor and it was making me hate the game when I forced myself to play that role in order to "see both sides".
However. I try to do my best to listen to any argument with an open mind and I try to get informed on different opinions before I say anything. I try to see what those who are better than me are saying, and see what they experience, so I can understand where they are coming from. It is the least I can do not to sound like an absolute idiot. I was worse at it in the past. I've gotten better at it over time.
I will say, though. I find the animosity that is generated to be absolutely disgusting and it's fueled by both sides. With this patch, I saw survivors gloating over how much killers would suffer. I saw survivors trying to gaslight killers. I saw survivors demean killers. I saw killers who say they don't tunnel or slug demean other killers. I saw killers dismissing survivors, calling them entitled, coddled and babied. I saw both sides insulting the developers. Then after the announcement of them postponing the changes, I saw killers gloating about it instead of trying to be reasonable about it.
it is certainly disheartening…5 -
Not really going to happen on a widespread scale. It'd be nice though. I think most people have not found their center as people and take themselves & their opinions on videogames too seriously.
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Every online game has their 1 faction players. Even mmos like world of warcraft. I know people that wont play the other side ever (even tho they are exactly the same with just different quest areas).
But dbd is like playing 1 of 2 completely different games. So the seperation of factions is even stronger as killers only see survivors as the worst of what they can be (swf teams), and survivors see killers as tunnelers and campers and team sluggers.
So the killers do what they do because swf teams bully them and break the balance of the game, while the majority of solo que survivors end up hating killers for treating them like they were a swf team.
This level of seperation makes players that enjoy both sides rather rare.
So besides all the anti slugging and anti camping and anti slugging, i think one of the primary reasons both sides hate eachother is the existence of the 3rd faction (swf teams) who pull at the strings on both sides and keep them hating eachother.
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Yeah that's true. It's totally normal that 1 faction players exist. Though I kinda disagree with seperating solo q and SWF, considering them as a 3rd fraction. SWF is way more pluralistic as you can think, from those who play just casully with friends and those specific groups.
Though I wouldn't call this fractions. It's different player agendas. You can find the same, when you look at killer players as well.1 -
And what if a 4K and playing for a clear win is the fun for some of us? Not everyone enjoys super “casual, I don’t care” matches
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Honestly, I've been playing more killer than survivor since 6.1 but I was excited about this patch. I thought I could finally play survivor again and have fun. I'm so disappointed that the game is still going to be "Get someone out of the game in the first 30 seconds" because whoever is the first target just queued for no reason or benefit.
Probably the only change I was worried about is the whole "If you kill someone before 6 hooks everyone gets 25% gen speed". I get the concept, but BHVR is so prone to applying 6 different fixes to the same issue and they were already testing ways to give a hooked player some chance of survival. The delayed unhook notice, for example, already does plenty against tunneling. Test that FIRST and only THEN, if needed, push harder.
They keep doing nothing for 6 years and then applying all the fixes they should have tested throughout the years in a single PTB, of course the changes are going to be dramatic for the players.
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It's not a good system to be honest. I think the community lacks enough maturity to be able to handle it. And even if they did, one's observations don't live or die on it.
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If u can’t get a 4k without tunnelling then u shouldn’t be getting a 4k it should require practice and effort rather than handed to you for free like it is now. It’s not fair to rig the round in your favour immediately and spoil it completely for 4 other people also trying to enjoy the game.
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It's much more fun when it has been a constant battle to get it. Not just handed to you on a silver platter like it is today.
If you had to put in work to get the 4K, then hats off to you. But if cheese tactics was involved, then it really doesn't feel like a true win.That is what the whole debate is all about. Many killers gets undeserved wins because their tactics are cheap, and require minimal effort. But those who are actually playing well on the other hand, knowing how to outsmart their opponents, without resorting to cheese tactics, yeah they EARNED their win fair and square.
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literally tunnelling is so boring for killers as well there’s 3 gens left you’ve got one person out the other three just hide whilst you pick them off knowing there’s nothing they can do.
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Unfortunately humans are pack animals and can't see past their own usually. We could be capable of more but it takes real effort and thinking. Us vs them is just everywhere these days.
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Tunneling can be strategically nessecity at times however.
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95% of the toxic “us vs them” posts would disappear if people were required to play both sides.
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100% agree. Now people can anonymously lob bombs at the side they don’t like instead of actually having to form a rational or fact-based response. It has made the toxicity on this forum worse for sure and there’s literally no reason for the function to exist. I really don’t understand why whoever brought the downvote function back thought it was a good idea.
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There is a wide spectrum between playing like 4Ks are the only thing keeping you alive and a "casual, I don't care" playstyle.
One can play to win as killer and succeed most of the time and never hard tunnel or slug everyone, even at higher MMR. Maybe not as a low tier killer, but the ridiculous killer power imbalance is massive issue that needs to be addressed independently of tunneling/camping.
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this "wide spectrum between" is most of the time a big gamble at high MMR, and I don’t like coin flips.
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