Tunneling Fatigue

If the game matchmakes players with killer who can slug or tunnel on 5 gens the player, it basically means this matchmakes never should happen. Because it can be everything - skill difference, extremely bad RGN, but not the fault of the player. If every survivor goes down in few seconds of the chase, do really player who playing other role have to spend his time on this match longer than needed? Why responsibility of the game provide fair challenge and good conditions is transferred on the shoulders of simple player? Artificially making match longer, where u clearly don’t experience anything except of huge disappointment from the game MMR?

For you, it's a trash tactic, for others, a valid strategy. Players aren't informed whether they're playing bad solo or against someone else. Everyone knows that numbers prevail, and so in an asymmetrical game, the four-player side will always have an initial advantage. Everyone knows there's only one killer in the game, and effective survivors are the only ones who truly control the game's balance. Killers are also well aware of the number of second-chance perks that give a second wind literally if their opponent loses, and they also may consider this unfair and trash tactic. They may consider it unfair when survivors hides for 10 minutes, deliberately avoiding any interaction for the sake of the hatch, just because sitting in a bush requires nothing rather than being in chase.
They may think of trash tactics as gen rushes when they've completed a standard chase in a minute, and they're down to 3-2 gens, after wich players like u gonna remind them they have to play "not according to trash tactics."

From perspective of survivor , I don’t feel anything in matches where half of the game I press m1 and leave. Because every match where hooks were spreading, it was either player stomping anyway and making unpleasant match even more longer, or killer struggled from the start and outcome is still evident. As survivor player, my personal fun is getting it through tight interaction with killer and when I feel I can be punished for mistakes, so game incentives playing me more careful. As survivor player, I have fun in efficiency and short outcomes, so the issue is when I play efficient, killers can’t allow himself to spread hooks, he’ll more likely lose no matter skill, because micro + macro is overperforming pure micro play. My fun in challenge that force me to learn loop better, but who I am to ask for my fun, indeed.

It's time to understand that what you consider trash and a lack of player empathy is very relative. The fact that you're trying to tie game outcomes and victories to the perception of player personality is trash for me, for example. It's trash when, instead of finally forcing BHVR to balance killers’ abilities and make the average game so that even a calm player doesn't have to face someone who's truly playing to win, they're blaming one side or the other. If, damn it, people started tunneling, and it's been going on for nine years, and it's a widespread phenomenon, then there must be some sense to it. And instead of trying to fight it like a plague, it would be a good idea to start trying to make the game evolve around it.

Because if you have a sweat lobby and a chill lobby the sweats will just go to the chill lobby and smash the chill players.

This argument is truly tiresome. Instead of even trying to create a satisfying environment for players, they're forced to come up with the worst-case scenario as excuse. As if the same thing isn't happening now. As if people don't write from time to time about some sweats and how annoying they are to the average player. Maybe you should at least try to do something for separating them, instead of justifying lack of actions that some player might go and satisfy their ego by playing against less experienced players. Maybe just try. Well, or, in principle, then it’s time to stop complaining that some player comes into the lobby to play by the rules of soulless efficiency, and not your mood at all. But in the end, we choose the third option - to complain and demand primitive solutions in the form of calling entire part of player base trash and toxic. Classic.

On other post I asked u to share with your PTB gameplay. So I can at least understand what u comprehend by “balanced” PTB incentives and fair pace of match between players with same skill. But u dodged, ignoring the fact that my offer was the first. When a demand is met with a counter-demand in an attempt to avoid having to answer for words, my desire to discuss anything with such people is reduced to zero. I already told u - I’m not going to invest in comments to discuss something with u

When my words getting neglected as soon as it stops being convenient to answer on it, I simply avoid to talk. Because more words from me would be neglected, and more answers from u would be rain down on my head

But just to say - when u cancel any proposes of actually meaningful QoL due to existence of bottom of fanbase because they are toxic, at the same time demanding other QoL for the same bottom tier like Solo Q who sandbaggs each other, constantly DC and usually even don’t run meta despite their vulnerable position, nothing actually meaningful in so called QoL will appear

So you're going to reject a perfectly valid question because of a grudge you have with me personally?

1. I answered on your question, but I’m pretty sure it wont satisfy u, because your own grudge interferes with adequate dialogue much more, why I simply avoid waste of my emotions on such people
2. U rejected valid ask to prove your words by video of your gameplay and still aggressively avoid it by asking more questions (while mine left unanswered), playing in words equilibria
3. U excessively overestimate validity and quality of your questions, because all of them rhetorical

I think I have enough reasons for finding you pretty disrespectful person, and it is definitely better just ignore you as much as you ignore something I ask about. Yep

just go down in a smarter area, not between important gens in a high value area and dont insta unhook? not to hard.

One singular person's experience isn't proof. The premise of your demand itself is faulty, and it's ridiculous to expect that anyone is obligated to dance to whatever whims you have. Not to mention that it was a non-sequitur to my argumentation.

The issue is that that all of your arguement about PTB - that u find every incentives fair and new system balanced, yet can’t prove it besides hypothetical speech. Just be honest - did u even play that PTB? On both sides. Did you encounter team that matches your skill?

U also told about 40% rate being underpowered. Yet u ignore that it is soloQ and devs aiming at that number for the average play. So IT SHOULD BE as it is now and tunneling or solo Q doesn’t stop u for having this average number. U can’t provide 50% escape rate for solo without making gameplay stupidly lazy on survivor side to the point u get handholded, because this solo Q heavily ignore any meaningful matchmake and usually show the worst gameplay u can possibly imagine out of possible.

U can’t buff all killers at the same time just because majority of these killers are belong to the bottom of tier list AND u can't nerf all killers just because majority playing solo Q. U either touch something specific, or don’t touch already broken thing at all.

The only way to create “balance” u wish to see - making game even more broken on top play, and complete lack of skill from survivor side, encourage stagnation of progressing and babysitting. Having endurance for 30 seconds requires even less skill than tunnel. It requires NOTHING and cost NOTHING for average player being bad. And seeing u tell about impossibility to win the game even with antitunnel perks and “hypothetically” compare tunneling with perks that works as auto kill shows why u so craving for such “balance”. No wonder why u avoid showing your gameplay and start to find another excuse about irrelevance of personal experience (even if it's your own lol). It’s not about my whims (because u simply unable to satisfy it), it’s just because u can’t find actual basis of proving your own words beside rhetorical questions and hypothetical speech. I told u. I have game records. I can show them, but only when question I asked first would be answered first.

the game just needs adjustments to discourage those who do.

Discourage way of effective play and outplaying opponent? If tunnel on 5-4 gen happened, it was a mismatch from the start.

Okay. I can understand this complaints towards S tier killers. But it is S tier and u work with S tier only then. U don’t do global change.

So, discourge… discouraging… So, punishment? How it works. Hm…. Somehow I was recently hardtunneled by Nemesis. It took 3 gen. Without anti tunnel perks, and he proxy camped me even. Not a lot of sources, my teammates escaped with 2. It was a tie and he was humbled in EG showing his salt after me saying GG to my teammates and regretting I didn’t loop him better.

Conclusions:

— Was he discouraged? Yes

— Was he punished for early tunnel? Yes

— Was it fun for me at least? Yes.

So, it turns out you can have all of this already just by playing better than opponent. Wow… Sounds reasonable. Why responsibility from discouraging my opponent should be shifted from my team on game system?

Don’t u think making this “discourage” artificial can heavily backfire?

My whole comment was erased unfortunately, but I think it’s enough here. Just more few words.

I’m also average player. Less than 1k, mid MMR, 50/50 players with solo Q incline, but had experience of SFW. Don’t play S tier killers. 40% -50 ER, 60-65% KR. I also work and study, play for fun. Sounds average and ideal of what BHVR were looking to. Why I am being average player being spoke out from you and u say u speak for my fun? Because it’s a lie. I don’t find your position neither fair or fun.

Turns out your “average” player is only player who agree with you. You don’t count player as “average” when he talks like this:

how can you weaponize having no collision and being unable to do anything to stay immune? i am curious.

You do see the problem here, right? RIGHT?

To discourage tunnelling, the tactic must instil in the killer a realisation that the game would've gone over better for them if they hadn't tunnelled

But it wouldn’t. U don’t have this alternative. Base kits from ptb wasn’t enough. U still didn’t create good incentive

If killer discouraged by game system only for being deprived of most effective game style artificially, hence no point in PvP. It should be single player then. When I want system discourage my play, I go to Bloodborne, Silent Hill 2 RE, Resident Evil. When I want being discouraged by player (or discourge myself) I play multiplayer.

Yup… but this is exactly the huuuge mistake I keep seeing on survivor side. It shouldn’t happen. If someone goes down at/around the first gens, the entire first chase gets devalued. Even worse: paletts are gone.. for.. nothing.

and any killer who can count ans has a feling for time.. knows there’s nothing far along anywhere else. proxy camping and hard tunneling to secure another fast down in that same area is the most logical play. and a good early is soo important :( Survivors are strongest early.. and we just threw our whole early game. No killer with is going to give thatpressure up now. At least not the killers I face. And h.. i think, that’s fair. The mistake was on our team, and now we pay for it. The killer will defend that zone—why wouldn’t he? Math says those are probably the farthest gens, and he’s already got a hook there.

I see this go wrong in soloQ all the time, even when people have good micro and are solid in chase. That’s why in soloQ or duo I try to take first chase (or my duo mate does) specifically to avoid this scenario. Even if the randoms can run, I just see survivors make this mistake too often. One bad early and the match slips, because proxy camp into hard tunnel becomes super tempting for the killer.

big oouf huge mistake i always see Don’t give the killer an early down at the hot gen cluster. If it happens, expect this damn hardcore proxy + tunnel and .. most people doesnt do this : rotate out— (sometimes they just start greeed after the unhook the gens in this arera, or.. heal under hook, they hover the nearly gens, sometimes injured... they dont Take the chase away from the cluster when possible,.. its so important to spread progress at this pont, but they often feed the killer the same zone twice.

this is a huuge misplay.. but.. do we need this base handholdings for surv to counter this?? id k.. i think.. soloq needs a way more info to avoid stuff a swf calls out… but.. idk.. the moment in soloq i get the first chase, we have most of the time a good match… and this is not because i´´m rthe best chaser in the world.. i just try to avoid situatons like this. (i have good headphones tbh, i hear gens from very far away.. not everyone does. so.. y.. : soloq needs a bit more info there… swf call out this stuff anyways)

I can't even decipher.

Do you feel this way about every change in this game? One of my favorite perks was recently changed, messing up my build and discouraging me from playing how I want. Yet I had to accept it and change my build. It's almost like things change over time and you just need to adjust.

First - what exactly u don’t understand? The way people feel that it’s not fair other side receive catch up tool while they don’t? The way how average player is not what u actually consider? The way how some people who finds this changes good and balanced (Mulder clearly refers to someone as name/nickname), blatantly lying and it was proved on their game as soon as they faced decent players?

I do. My killer was changed in a way I didn’t ask so. They justified his movement speed nerf by adding two ridiculous iri add-ons, while his speed already was low and he has one of the longest cooldown from his power + the easiest power for dodging

What I can do? Because average player don’t want to learn play as/against him properly, I have to live with these two “funny” addons that are using as excuse for me playing in different way. Before I were able to allow myself using his M2 more frequently, now I have to use boring M1 more. Just because other players since the start used only boring M1 and zoning

I didn’t support nerf of fog vials in a way that happened - I think we have mutual agreement in community that it was bad balancing from BHVR. So please, don’t try shift goalpost to this theme.

I will repeat again - if it’s PvP and multiplayer, game should be balanced around effective strats as a way to encourage the way who performed this effectiveness in a best way. It’s player’s duty to counter effective tunneling by skill without reliance on game doing this job instead of them. U don’t ask for difficulty adaptability in multiplayer, just because previously failed in proper matchmaking. U told yourself - tunnelling doesn’t cause breaking balance issue. It’s all about pure sentiment, but the changes people asking for affecting core balance directly. U can’t ignore core balance just because “average” player u imagined don’t care about balancing. Because it’s devs duty, but it seems BHVR working currently by pure marketing policy, forgetting about how to design games.

If u really want to discuss “ethical” part of tunneling - why u don’t look from other perspective?

It’s in psychological nature of assym genre when u play alone against team .

Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Killer, despite being considered as “power” role, will always feel under pressure due to being presented as minority in a match. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many assym games due to weird devs decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to "target". Because it's logical. "I'm alone and it's 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it... probably making it 3 vs 1". It’s a natural way to balance 1 vs 4 imbalance issue where 4 will always overperform just due to their quantity.

Tunneling is a way to deal with pressure that was created by nature of assym gameplay.As well as when survivors’ team up and gen rush making them to help with their own pressure. Problem is that solo q struggle with it, so it’s reasonable to help with this specific part. Since the start of the game the match is on ticking clock that reminds u about losing control. On both sides

So again. Killer showed toxicity, hitting u on hook and hardtunneling just because? Humble him through gameplay. That’s how u actually discourge toxicity - showing their irrelevance and moderating precisely. U could, if u are actually good player and don’t deny meta. Issue with moderating is because it doesn’t actually works in this game. Toxic players should be a precise deal, and not affecting game balance. That’s why better grading and proper rating system needed.

This video clearly shows why tunneling is less issue when we talk about “fun factor”

That’s the big difference between players who escape a lot and those who don’t. It’s not just only about having a “good chase.” good survivors know the map, know the important gens, do those gens, and if they’re the first chase, they avoid going down in that area so the killer can’t convert it into pressure (this hook + high-value gens nearby situatins).

That’s why I actually like taking first chase as survivor: I keep some control. I pick where I run and where I’ll go down. I’d rather go down a bit earlier in a safe, low-value area than hand the killer a hook next to important gens getting pressured. Otherwise the entire “progress” from my "long" chase is wasted. the gens are lost. This gens that super hard to get done in the endgame.

if you play around this, you rarely get those “team dead at 4–5 gens” games.

What i see on average: the first player dies around 2 gens left (and the killer often doesn’t know how close the second-to-last gen is). that’s the baseline.

in that world, tunneling isn’t a comeback mechanic anymore …. as long as survivors respect and learrn their macro. (this is a biig mistake most of the time) but what i see too: if the killer doesn’t tunnel early, it’s usually not worth it for most killers to start tunneling midgame. survivors who pay attention punish that: if the killer flips to “tunnel for comeback” midgame, they just lose. (everything else is just a gamble for this killer)
The huge problem is that 80percent of players ignore map state and team macro. they run nowhere in particular, try to use a single pallet, and only focus on their chase.. just run and drop, try to just survive as long as possible.
idk.. survivors probably need more info (and teams already call this stuff out), and new players need map awareness training. stuff like: “okk.. kay, this gen is safe .. maybe we leave it for late game?” or "Dn’t go down near our key-gen cluster.”

The biggest and best counter against hard tunneling is : learn how to use the map to ur advantage, not only : Last long as possible in every chase. (y this is th efun part of playing survivor, i get it, ..but sometimes u have to avoid spezific tiles and strong loops as long as people pushin the gens over there)..

same with basic gamesense: I loose many times matches even if i manage to go down and get hooked in a for surv strong aarea and the killer has to cross the map the moment he want to protect his gens.. what happens? insta unhooks, .. against S tier , super early against nurse in blink range and so on.. … )

DBD effectively is more in the realm of PVE, given how much the game relies on poor matchmaking and steamrolls. 

If game is straightforward broken, it doesn’t change initial genre. It can’t be PvE because people facing people. It's just that some people like to manipulate terms in an attempt to justify something.

The way how people justify this is ridiculous. People build this sentiment because this game doesn’t provide adequate learning curve and prefers to give an imitation of skill, like broken killer powers or second chances perks. Their sentiment matters more than balance because they can’t learn how to play the game and wait for system babysitting them when they counter someone who plainly play better or don’t deny meta. Whatever. They won’t start to play better, core issues never would be fixed if indulging players whims. The average player in DBD can’t hold any competition , hence we have tunneling hysteria and dash killer slop.

This will motivate players who doesn’t fit to this forum’s sentiment to turn off any kind of empathy for others, just because some part of players willing to go against balance and logic for a minute of pseudo-fun made it first for them. If, instead of solving the problems and defining that PvP always stands as form of competition, they continue to create workarounds to maintain a low skill floor for players, the gap between sweats and the average fan will grow exponentially, become more acute, and matches will become more unbearable. Matches will be a hundred times worse, and you'll be playing a simulator rather than actual challenge. Because the average player, nurtured by years of inept balance, doesn't know how to play, while some win chasers is given with broken toys like Ghoul or "anti-tunnel." And since MMR with such a message won't appear, it's the average player who will have to deal with it. If that's what they want, go ahead. I'll see how, three years from now, despite all the changes, the same people will still be complaining that nothing has changed.

BHVR doesn’t have issues because their game is in assemtry genre. They have issues because they trying to ignore PvP key aspects to indulge so called “average player”. This is marketing then and not some sort of actualy competent design. No wonder they fired so many people and only who created this issue from the first day of game existence left. If tgey’ll continue feeding so much, one day or another DBD won't even need a competitor. They'll kill themselves, their game, and their fan base. It’s already rotting

Idc if I’ll be banned from this forum for such blatant speech, because if what about the forum is - specific sentiment that ignores balance, I’ll be glad to move on.